Before I post the revised plan, I would like to thank everyone for their help and ideas. Because of you guys, I can have a layout that is fun and easy to operate. I can not explain how thankful I am.
I talked to my parents, and they have no problem with a layout that large. As long as it doesn't take up the entire room, it's fine.
So taking everyone's ideas into consideration, I've created a 7x10.5 table with an operating pit in the center. The pit is easy for me to fit into, and it allows me to have access to the harder-to-reach parts of the layout.
All curves are 24", and turnouts are #6 (although the curved turnout is #7). This ensures that all cars will run smoothly. The plan is at a 3/4"= 1' scale (3 blocks =1 foot), and all curves and turnouts are drawn to scale. I tried to keep as much of the old plans as necessary, and changed things as necessary. I also had room to add one more industry. No scenery is shown, with the exception of things that are important to the track itself (such as industries, grade crossings, etc.
So now, here's the new plan: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3719083480_c53fac0fa2_o.jpg
Thanks for all your help!
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Here is the plan I am finishing up designing. Turnouts are all #6s execpt for the yard which are #4s. The min radius is 24" on the outer radius and 18" on the inner track. The inner track has a 2% grade to get some separation. The stub end track on the lower left will be used to extend to a staging yard of one to three tracks.
~Chris
Discussion here:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/153992.aspx
Plan:
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Paulus JasThe Marklin #2 switches are not suitable for your coaches.
Joe, keep in mind on the turnouts as soon as the front truck clears the curve, the car wants to pull the trailing truck in a straight line with the car just like the dredded "S" curves we hear about. The longer the car the longer it tries to pull the truck off the rails especially through a small turnout and split the switch rails sending eac end of the car on a different path. And believe me on long passenger car it can and many times will. Been there done that and got the T-shirt. I'm reworking some track to replace the turnout for that very reason. I thought I could get away with it but it just isn't reliable. The smaller the turnout the worse that gets. The larger the turnout the better that gets but, the less length you get for cars in a given space. Also the clearance beween tracks is all fine as long as the car doesn't hang over the inside curve too far. Lay some track on the floor and see what Paul's saying. He's just trying to save you some headaches.
Play with it a bit. Designing is half the fun. I wish I'd done mine better.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Dear Joe
I disagree with other members that you should go ahead and just start building.
I also think the donut is a great idea. But you have a big design problem. If you use #6 switches in your "upper"station there is no length left for a train. The Marklin #2 switches are not suitable for your coaches. You can't have it all; probably you have to use #4 switches, leaves you enough length in the stations (same as you have right now) and above that your tracks are coming only 2'' apart. You can add a teamtrack and a freighthouse track without loosing space for scenery.
If you build the shelfs of the donut 2' wide you end up with a generous 6' to 3' pit. Leaves you with a lot of space for scenery as well. Remember you don't always have to build the whole building.
You have to take the decisions, but before doing so be sure your trackplan can be realised. Photocopy a #6 switch (L and R) and really check out on the floor if needed, if everything fits in the space you have. Listen to Byron's advise, a engine fallen on the floor............. it happened with some of my old Marklin engines more then once, they still run flawlessly. Only some details broken and some bruises. My youngest 8 year old son races those little 50 yrs old Marklin engines around the tracks laying on the floor of our livingroom. Alas, cleaning up is not one of his favourite activity's
Hey man, start building and have fun.
Paul
Joe..., buddy. 18" for 9' is a long squeeze. I'm 6'2" and only 180 so I ain't much bigger around than you. But that's not a real big issue if nothing goes wrong much at the end of the layout. However I would suggest a doughnut shape also for these reasons.
1. You're young and it doesn't sound like you will have this layout forever and some people get along just fine with one. The operational controls can still be outside and the inside can be for access only just as your path is.
2. You are not going to be any farther from the action or scenery as you are now. You may even be closer if you choose to be in the doughnut hole.
3. Someone who shouldn't, will eventually try to go down that isle. Meaning you'll have to be down there fixing something.
4. Construction. You say for operations that is enough space. Think construction. Take some wood, make an 18" by say 48" rectangle. Place it on legs your planned height. Now maneuver down that. Reach. Bend. Pretend your constructing something 4" away. ( actually farther. The top right corner may prove to be interesting to get to.)
5 Not knocking the plan, but really, the yard is huge for the amount of activity the layout has. My suggestion is make the doughnut shape and make the yard smaller like the one at the top. You'll still have both yards and room for another industry at the second yard area.
6. Trust me. 18" and full size passenger cars are not the best of friends. ( or any looong car )Will they work together? Sure. Unless you have heavyweights. They really don't like 18". In fact anything with 6 wheel trucks would rather pass on a 18"er. Yes they will work but it won't take much to have to negotiate the trench again. And that may not happen when you're alone, but when you have visitors.... It will happen every time you take the curve. By going to a doughnut you eliminate the 18" at the entrance/exit to the lower yard and are replacing it with a much more gentler curve. Also leaving room, probably, for another siding or spur.
7. Remember the doughnut hole doesn't have to be so big it leaves only a foot of bench work around the circumference. You can make the hole smaller ( or off center for a large yard). Just don't make it 18" X 18" or you'll never get up into it. Make a mock up of any access hole and try to get up it and reach your expected, and unexpected distances.
These are just some thoughts. If you really like the plan you have and don't want to change, by all means go for it. It may work for you just fine and if it doesn't, well we all have trials and errors to make and that makes us better the next time.
Have Fun.
dm9538 Build it and have fun kid.
Build it and have fun kid.
I agree, but don't understand his motivation for asking for feedback.
Mark
I think this is not a bad plan for a first layout. He seems to have an idea of how he wants to operate it, so I say let him bulid it and operate it after all he said he's going to college in three years. We could spend the next three years picking apart his plan and telling him what kind of layout we think he should build and still not agree. Is the plan perfect? No would I build this for myself? no, but it's not my layout it's his and I dont think it's that bad. Build it and have fun kid.
Dan Metzger
Paulus JasHow can you fit in a 18" wide aisle?
Dear Jersey man
I think you should start with telling the truth. I looked carefully at your trackplan. Your tracks are exactly 9 cm apart and measuring the length of your turnouts (18 cm) you must have a Marklin layout. When really using #6 switches you had to double the space you used in your plan.(1' per switch); an other give away... son. And then the tracks will come only 2" ( 5 cm) apart.
When you really want advice be frank and listen to strangers. Be very grateful a well respected and profesional modelrailroader as Cuyama (Byron Henderson) is trying to help you. Believe me, you can learn a lot from him and others who are taking their time to help you.
Paul JAS
I must be missing something. All that freight movement is to switch one or two cars out of the lumber yard (apparently the only on-line industry)?
As drawn, it looks like your tracks will only be an inch or or so from the edge of the plywood sheet.
If this really is absolutely positively all the space you have and you insist on passenger trains, it seems you'd be better off making a donut-style layout and ducking into the center. By planning carefully, most fo the operation could be from outside the layout and access and perhaps working the "branch" would be the only time you'd need to duck under. You could broaden the radii a bit and still keep tracks away from the edge.
I generally don't recommend duck-unders unless absolutely unavoidable, but if you are young and agile it won't kill you. At least, not as much as it will kill you if one of your passenger trains derails and crashes to the floor because the tracks are too close to the edge.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
OK, I guess I didn't give you guys enough info.I'm looking for a small layout that has plenty of operations, while still having scenery (ie, not industrial switching). I feel that I can accomplish this by modeling freight and commuter traffic in a small town. This town, at the end of the line would have a small freight yard and a passenger station. Another section of the layout would represent the other end of the line, where it connects with another line and the rest of the world. The layout would be "point to point with a loop." Trains would start at Point A, circle the layout several times, and end up at Point B. Here's what a typical operating session would be like:A train would arrive at the Freight track (F Track, for short) on the east end of the line (L-section) and exchange cars, before returning.Meanwhile, another train would depart from the yard at the west end of the line (top of the layout). It would make it's way down the line, before swapping cars at F Track at the east end of the line, before returning west.While this train is heading east, the local switcher would switch the industries at the west of the line.During this entire time, commuter trains would be heading back and forth, starting at the layover yard at the east end of the line and heading west. They would then switch directions and head back east.
The yard at the west end is a fully functioning freight yard. The yard at the east end (L-section) is used as a functioning yard, that doubles as staging. The commuter trains are push-pull (loco on one end, cab car on the other), so they do not require turning, so the layover yard (L-section) does not need crossovers. No switching would happen in this yard; it is just a place for trains to layover during mid-day or overnight.I can't use a smaller radius because of the passenger cars, which are full length.In order to make the aisle larger, I would have to make the layout smaller, but I can't do that without further reducing the radii. I would most likely operate from outside the aisle; it's just there for when I need access to the layout.
I'll get a drawing of the room ASAP, even though the layout has absolutely no room to get any larger. And I'm also keeping it small so that I'll be able to finish it before I go to college in three years...
Paul Jas: The small aisle is no problem for me. I'm 5'11" and 120lbs. I can easily slide in to throw a turnout, and then slide back out. While I don't have a plan of the room, I can guarantee that the layout is at it's maximum dimensions, because of a door adjacent the top left of the plan, and a firplace near the bottom right.
Mark: There's no need to enter/leave the L-yard in either direction. The layout is basically a point to point, with a loop in the middle (Commuter trains start at the L-yard, run around the loop a few times, heading west [clockwise], and then arrive at the station, and then just head the other way [push-pull]. Freight trains start at the top yard, head east [counter-clockwise], and then arrive at the L-yard to exchange cars, before heading back.). I added a runaround at the top yard, but the bottom one does not need one because it is push-pull, so turning is not necessary. While I don't have a compass, the measurement of the curves is correct, although the curvature may be off. In the revised plan, I also used templates for the turnouts.
Darrell: See the above comments to Paul and Mark. Also, I've messed around with several CAD programs, but have yet to find one I like.
And now, without further adue, I present the revised plan:
The major changes were made to both yards (changing and removing tracks), changing the 21" curve to 20.5" radius, and drawing the turnouts correctly.I'm still here for comments and suggestions.
Thanks again.
Yeah, those yard turnouts, if they're #6's, should take up about 3 feet of space in N scale, almost double that in HO.
I agree with Paul, decide what you want to do with a railroad. What you have drawn allows you to run a train around a loop while you move cars around in a yard. After you get the yard work done, how will you exchange the train on the layout with the new one in the yard? In other words, there isn't much for the railroad to do on your layout, and what you can do can't be done very efficiently.
Mark pointed out that the aisle is pretty narrow. That's okay if it's an emergency access, but it's too small to be used for operating the layout.
Take a look at this site for some ideas on small layouts: http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm
This site is often recommended for small layouts: http://www.carendt.com/
Remember, you can always combine ideas from several layouts to come up with your own design.
You can Google "small model railroad layouts" and get a lot more sites to check out. See if you can find ways to improve what you have. You may even decide to start over. Better now than when all the wood is cut and nailed together! LOL
After you've done some research, maybe made some more sketches, you may want to try CAD software to see if your ideas will fit the space available. But you need the ideas first. Just drawing in a CAD program won't define your railroad.
Darrell, quiet...for now
There probably is a lot more effective way to use the available space (see other responder's comments), but if you're determined on having a large rectangular-shaped layout, I'd recommend a donut shape with something like a 2.5x5-foot operating pit. This will allow broader curves and provide superior access.
With the given plan, I'd recommend:
1. Curved turnouts at the apex of the two right-hand 180-degree curves to create a wye so trains can enter or leave the yard in either direction.
2. Add a cross-over near the end of two of the yard tracks so locomotives can escape and run-around their trains. There is room to add service tracks for locomotives, or whatever, at the right end of the yard.
4. Use a compass to accurately draw your curves and accurately mark the turnouts. You've drawn something like no. 1 or 2 turnouts, much too sharp for normal models and no where near a no. 6. If your equipment is short, consider no. 4 turnouts. No. 5 would be ideal given the radii you're using.
Dear Jersey man,
You must very young and slim. How can you fit in a 18" wide aisle? Without adding a plan of your room you'll never get sound advice.
You have a great space, but the trackplan comes second. What do you want? In terms of operation, but also in terms of the kind of railroad(ing) you'r after.
Read LDSIG webside and Byron Henderson's and every book you can; even Trackplanning for realistic operation that John Amstrong wrote may be 40 yrs ago. Tony Koester also wrote, far more recently, books about realistic design and operation. I would try to get a much MR-planning and Great MR's as you can. Search for something that's making you heart beat and fits your space. I like MR-planning because they also tell the story behind the design.
Go your own way, have lots of fun
Well, thanks to Guilford Guy forcing me into rebuilding my layout (thanks), I have this to present:EDIT: The picture isn't showing up, so here's the link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ns3010/3701033133/sizes/l/in/photostream/
It's the trackplan for the new Watchinson Line. I actually like this a lot better, because it makes the mainline longer, has room for two industries instead of just one, makes the station more accessible for trains, has more room for a larger yard, and has room for more scenery, such as a larger downtown and a river (which is on the right side of the layout, but I forgot to color it).The main table is 4x10 and a 1/2 (48"x92") and the L-shaped extension is 3x10.5 (2 squares= 1 foot). Minimum radius is 21" (although the curve on the extension is 18" because that's all I had room for. However, this won't matter because I can just put a speed restriction, both because of the curve, and because of the yard). Turnouts are no. 6. And there are no grades.
I'm open to questions, comments, and suggestions. Thanks.