Has anyone built the Wingate 4'x8' layout that was featured in the 1995 annual track plans? I saw reference to it in an Operations book I bought from Kalmbach. I thought it would be good because I can use hidden staging from both sides of the town to run trains from
Is this a good track plan for a 4'x8' space? Unfortunately, that is all of the space I have right now.
Hansel
Hansel Has anyone built the Wingate 4'x8' layout that was featured in the 1995 annual track plans? I saw reference to it in an Operations book I bought from Kalmbach. I thought it would be good because I can use hidden staging from both sides of the town to run trains from Is this a good track plan for a 4'x8' space? Unfortunately, that is all of the space I have right now. Hansel
It could be that you are right, and a 4x8 is all you have room for. But it is a fairly common misconception among many that layouts have to be 4 feet wide and rectangular, because that is what beginners layouts in most books look like.
Are you sure a 4x8 is all you have room for in your house/room?
I wish I had a dollar for every time someone say "a 4x8 is all I have room for", without any further explanation about the room size and shape, what other uses of the room the layout has to co-exist with and other relevant factors, which "force" them to use build a 4x8 foot rectangular layout.
4x8 layouts actually take up quite a bit of room, since you need to have room to walk around the layout as well. A quick rule of the thumb is that you need 8x10 feet of available space to be able to work on a 4x8 layout, and to be able to run trains on a 4x8 layout - since you need a 2 foot wide aisle on three sides of the layout to reach things properly.
A 4x8 (on wheels) is a great shape for putting in the middle of the floor of a big room (like a basement), and roll it into a corner when not in use. For a small room, a 4x8 is very often a pretty poor usage of space.
I have a pretty small room available for my layout - 6.5 x 11.5 feet, with a chimney foundation in one corner. This is what I have fitted into my room by not going "I have to have a rectangular island in the middle of the floor":
Anyways - back to the original question. Is Tony Koester's example layout of Wingate, Indiana a good layout for you? That depends on what you want to model. It is a bad example of e.g. logging in New Hampshire, or hauling coal out of the Appalachians, and a decent example of railroading in a small Indiana town in the 1940s or 1950s.
Btw - back to the old 4x8 vs shelf debate. If you look at Tony Koester's book, notice that he goes on to improve the operational possibilities of this layout by cutting it into three strips: a 2x8 foot town, flanked on both sides by a 1x8 foot staging area with multiple parallell tracks.
If you have room along a long wall for a shelf (or room around two or three shorter walls for a shelf - you can have a desk or a dresser or a sofa or whatever under, and book shelves or storage shelves above), you can run a _lot_ of eastbound and westbound traffic through that little Indiana town - both passenger traffic and freight traffic, both things that stop in town, and things that pass through.
Of course, once you start thinking about a small shelf layout with staging on one or both sides, you might as well go on to e.g. something like this:
Fergus Falls, MN, ca 1950:
Climax, South Carolina:
Freelanced small industrial switching district:
A freelanced layout based on Jonathan Jones "Mid-Atlantic and Western":
There is a lot of other things you can do in fairly limited space - if you know what you want to model, what is important to you, and if you tell people what kind of room you really have available, instead of just stating without any amplification that a 4x8 is all you can fit into your room.
Smile, Stein
HanselIs this a good track plan for a 4'x8' space? Unfortunately, that is all of the space I have right now.
I'll bet it isn't.
The odds of "all of the space" you have being exactly the same as the default sized-sheet of plywood are awfully small.
There are lots of other option that provide for better model railroads than the 4x8 rectangle.
Funny you mention a shelf layout....
That is what I have now in a corner of our rec room, is my 2' x 8' shelf layout of a paper mill, similar to what you are showing. Actually it is derived from the famous "Time Saver" layout. I believe I might be able to fit a 4' x 8' in this same space, in the corner of the room however I will not have easy access to the 2 sides in the corner, which won't be a problem with the layout that I am planning, the Wingate, will have hidden staging in that area. Believe it or not, I live in a 3100 ft'2 house with no rooms to put a layout without getting in the way of the kids toys and play area. I thought about a layout in the garage, but with the hot summers and cold winters, I don't know how practicle that will be. Until we move to a house with a basement, a 4x8 is all I can afford, spacewise that is.
Hansel I will not have easy access to the 2 sides in the corner, which won't be a problem with the layout that I am planning, the Wingate, will have hidden staging in that area.
Wait until the first time a train derails in the corner you can't reach.
It will suddenly become a problem.
Hansel Funny you mention a shelf layout.... That is what I have now in a corner of our rec room, is my 2' x 8' shelf layout of a paper mill, similar to what you are showing. Actually it is derived from the famous "Time Saver" layout. I believe I might be able to fit a 4' x 8' in this same space, in the corner of the room however I will not have easy access to the 2 sides in the corner, which won't be a problem with the layout that I am planning, the Wingate, will have hidden staging in that area. Believe it or not, I live in a 3100 ft'2 house with no rooms to put a layout without getting in the way of the kids toys and play area. I thought about a layout in the garage, but with the hot summers and cold winters, I don't know how practicle that will be. Until we move to a house with a basement, a 4x8 is all I can afford, spacewise that is.
Okay, go for it. Let us know how it works out for you.
I most sincerely hope that you have the space to pull the table out from the wall to work on it. Laying bullet proof track (and turnouts) for the staging might prove somewhat - umm - "challenging" otherwise.
What is your main reason for wanting to do this particular layout as a 4x8 ? That restaging for your next run is easier with a continuous run type of layout (instead of just backing the trains across the modelled scene between the operations sessions) ?
If I had been planning a 4x8 that would be run pushed up against a wall on the long side, I would not have put trackage with quite a few turnouts on the most inacessible side.
I would have done something more like what forum poster RRTrainman has done - make sure all turnouts are acessible from the front of the layout.
But you can do a lot of cool things working in corners. This is a very nice L-shaped layout posted here by poster Arjay1969:
Byron Henderson has a nice little H0 scale L-shaped granger type layout with a couple of elevators, some industries, an interchange and a crossing between two lines at a depot that fits into a 7x5 foot alcove in a corner of a room in issue 3 of Model Railroad Hobbyist (http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com)
It all depends on _what_ you want to model and how. If you want to model trains passing _through_ town (and meeting in town), then hidden staging of some kind is pretty much a necessity.
If you want to model switching in a small town, you can pre-stage a train on the mainline of your 2x8 and switch from there.
Smile,
Stein
Put it on wheels, big ones so it rolls easily. That way you can pull it out to work on the back side.
Enjoy
Paul
Dear Hansel,
it would help if you could provide the Wingate trackplan. Due to a divorce i lost part of my MR collection. Dated back to '62, what a pity, so i can't help you.
I have stated on this forum that everyone looking for help should also provide a plan of the room and the garage, in your case, where his dream may come true. I believe you will get more and better comments.
I also doubt the wisdom of building a 4'x8'. An add-on section, mainly for staging, that can be stored elsewhere when your layout is not in use, could do the trick; or do you just love running around and around and..................?
Stein referred to the Brooklin at 3AM, Bernard Kempinski wrote about the very same spot in 2003 MR-Planning.
The fun is in the journey, great reason to start all over.
Have fun and go your own way.
Paulus Jas from Holland.
I just want to make sure I understand the total space you have available to you, including clear space for aisles and access. It sounds like you have at least 6'x8' available to you in that corner you mentioned: at least 2' in front of the layout so you can stand there and operate it. I'm guessing it's more like 6'x10': 2' along the front and 2' along one side.
Is that corner the only place in your rec room for a layout?
Why don't you like your existing 2x8 layout?
What is it about Wingate that you find appealing?
The Wingate HO 4X8 layout is in Tony Koester's Kalmbach book Realistic Model Railroad Operation. The book is on Google Books and page 11 with the track plan is one of those that has been digitized.
http://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA11
If one is really focused on replicating Wingate, Ind., this might be of interest. Otherwise, there's quite a bit of unused space. Other have talked about the limitations of the HO 4x8, particularly when the backside is inaccessible against a wall. Just seems like a problem-filled approach.
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The Wingate track plan I found in Realistic Model Railroad Operation, a model railroad book. The track plan is split in two down the length of the 4x8 sheet. The front side would have a small town with 3 sidings and a runaround, along with 3 industries, a depot, and a city street. The hidden half has 3 thru sidings and 2 non-thru sidings, unscenicked. I like this track plan because I can use the sidings in the back for hidden staging which can go in both directions, coming and going into the town.
Unfortunately that is about the only space I can afford now. I have a 13'x24' room which has my 48" tv, a couch, a fireplace and a door to the garage, along with floor high shelves for the kids toys (don't ask me what I was thinking the day I bought a house without a basement). So I only have 1 corner of the room for a layout. I could put an "L" shaped layout like the one above, but I would like to have one that I can run trains around also. I belong to a club that has a sizable layout, but it only meets on Tuesday nights. Maybe when the kids move out in 7 years I can claim one of their rooms 12'x13'. The clear space would be used to walk from room to room to my garage.
My wife said I could have her craft room, 4th bedroom, but she has yet to clear out her 4 floor highs and the closet, and we don't have any other place to put her stuff. Maybe I could buy a trailer and put it in the back yard! The neighbors probably wouldn't mind.....
I guess another alternative would be to change scales, from HO to N. My club has an N scale layout that I have seen, but I am not too fond of that scale.
HanselThe Wingate track plan I found in Realistic Model Railroad Operation, a model railroad book.
I think it is a great minimalist plan for some realistic operation. If you like it go for it. The operations are even already figured out so you don't have to go to all that work.
Hansel The Wingate track plan I found in Realistic Model Railroad Operation, a model railroad book. The track plan is split in two down the length of the 4x8 sheet. The front side would have a small town with 3 sidings and a runaround, along with 3 industries, a depot, and a city street. The hidden half has 3 thru sidings and 2 non-thru sidings, unscenicked. I like this track plan because I can use the sidings in the back for hidden staging which can go in both directions, coming and going into the town.
Umm - any kind of staging track (both visible and hidden, both single ended staging and staging that is hooked up to the visible layout on both ends of the staging track) can be used both for trains that are arriving on and trains that are departing from the layout.
Only difference is that with single ended staging on each end, you will have to restage trains between sessions - ie back them across the visible layout into staging on the other end of the layout, so they are ready to enter the stage again engine first in the next operating session.
Main advantage staging wise to having the staging form a loop at the rear of the layout is that you don't have to restage between session. The train which this session came from the east and left towards the west is ready to appear from the east again next session.
Main disadvantages staging wise to having the staging as on the 4x8 version of Wingate is that you don't have much staging capacity. You only have three through tracks (plus room for two short single ended staging tracks for doodlebugs ) at the rear end of the layout, which must be split between trains waiting to appear from the east and trains waiting to appear from the west.
The 2x8 plus wings version of the Wingate layout has room for 6 trains coming from the east and 6 trains coming from the west. Even taking into account that you might want one slot empty at the start to take the first train crossing your layout, you can still run 11 different longish (for this layout) trains across the modelled layout before you start repeating yourself.
You would need to restage between sessions, but you can have far greater variety during a session, and you would have access to the staging tracks to "fiddle" (rearrange) trains consists during an operating session, if desired.
So I wouldn't say that having the staging on the backside of a 4x8 is a great advantage staging wise. Which is why Koester quickly goes on to talk about cutting that 4x8 into three strips.
I guess it all boils down to what your givens and druthers are.
Wingate is mainly a teaching tool to teach the concept of using staging to have your layout "go beyond your layout room". If you want to model just Wingate, Indiana, then by all means model Wingate Indiana. If you want to model some other location, then model some other location. Not much point in modelling some location or type operation that doesn't much interest you.
If having the option of continuous run (the option of letting your train circle around and around unattended) is a big wish for you, then obviously you need some kind of a closed loop layout, like an oval on a rectangular table, or a dogbone style layout with turnback loops at either end, or an around the room/around the operator style layout.
And that loop can either be permanently laid, or formed temporarily while you run your trains, depending on how much of your room you can block off temporarily while running trains.
By the way - I am not trying to force you to not choose the 4x8.
I just want you to consider that it might not necessarily be so that your only choice is a 4x8 with 2 feet deep staging behind the 2 feet deep modelled scene.
But having (maybe) more than one option available does not necessarily mean that you have to choose one of those other options. If the model of Wingate, Indiana on a 4x8 with wheels work best for your design goals, then it works best for your design goals. As always - your layout, your choices.
I'll stop pestering you about this now :-)
All, thanks for the advice. Maybe one day when I start building my layout I will post some pictures. :)
I agree! The perfect plan for a 4x8 isn't a 4x8, not at all when you consider that you need 18-24 inches on 3 sides just for access and operation so your 4x8 sheet of plywwod needs a space of atleast 8x12, which is much harder to to come by than say an L shaped Layout that leaves more open viewing space and provides for more interesting track planning and scenic opportunities... I'm no expert, but if you can fill in some details about what you wnat out of your railroad I can try to help... Are you HO or N? I'm doing an 8x12 L shaped plan in N scale that is a wall hugger, with a 2 track mainline, a decent yard and some operating possibility...
Some years ago, a German model railroad planning magazine ran a story titled" Mikados at Wingate" and showd a track plan based on the original Wingate plan (hopefully with permission). They added a turntable in the hidden part to be able to turn steam locos. Interesting layout, but with the same shortfalls as all 4 by 8´s with a basic oval...
Dear Hansel
I also found the Wingate in the first MR-Planning from 1995. We all seem to forget what Linda Sands promoted a couple of years later and MR-staff did last year with the Beer-Line. Her design could transformed into an O(oval), a I or a L.
On my third layout i had a section fixed to the wall, mainly for staging, and a removable 4'x8' . A car loading plant on one side and a little terminal with a junction on the other. A "siding" trough the backdrop made running around possible.
A challenge to build, i don't have a clue how long the connections between the parts will function flawlessly, you could always clean up your wife's room. Building your empire high enough (56") creates a awesome lot of cabinet space and even space for a workbench (29").
Have fun
Paul from Holland
I would prefer to build an HO layout, eventhough I will be going to an operating session on an N scale layout at the end of the month for the first time. I would like to have industries to switch, along with some running to and from hidden staging. I would also like to have a continuous loop somewhere in the plan.
After listening to all of your advice, I just might wait until the kids are old enough that they don't need the shelf space and floor space to play with toys (4 years or so from now) and instead make an L shaped dog bone layout, probably 8' leg x 8' leg x 4' deep each leg, in the corner, where I could fit the two curves at the ends of the dog bone.
Have any of you considered a garage layout? What are the pros and cons?
Hi Hansel...
Build it. Go for it. Its a solid design, with options, and it will give you great hands on experience. There is nothing like starting in a basic design. Get some trains running asap, and work on your skills. Then...step up to the next one. Moreover...get going. When I learned in the kitchen, I didn't start with souffle...I started with a simple recipe. Same applies here. Get going, get skills, then progress. And there is nothing better than the NKP and Wingate. Its a great little town, lots of possibilities, and you can modify it and the theme as you see fit as it grows with you. Just do it.
I've got a 10' X 16' room sectioned off at the back of my 16' X 30' garage to build a layout in. I'm in Eastern Canada, so the environmental concerns are paramount. I plan on a double decker (in HO) with staging underneath.
It will need some pretty airtight insulation on the floor and ceiling as well as the walls, at least minimal heating in the winter and a dehumidifier running most of the year I'm sure.
Not an ideal situation, but the basement's a no-go, and I haven't got decent access to the attic (which is like an oven in the summer). It'll be at least 8 years before my kids are old enough to leave, and either of their bedrooms are only 12' X 12' at best.
If I were to start again, I'd seriously consider N scale for the added operation potential, but I have a fair bit of HO stuff already, so that's out. Since you said that you have tried N and don't like it, you shouldn't build in that scale, you won't be happy in the long run. Remember, you have to live with all of your compromises for quite a while, so be careful which ones you make.
Possibly you might change your mind about N after you try some operation, so keep your mind open, but don't force yourself to choose something you don't really enjoy. You'll regret it eventually.
Shopcat Build it. Go for it.
Build it. Go for it.
You did notice the point that he can't reach the back half if something ever derails, right?
HanselAfter listening to all of your advice, I just might wait until the kids are old enough that they don't need the shelf space and floor space to play with toys
You may want to evaluate how much the kids' toys are actually being played with and store some of them away to gain some space. Our younger kids (5 and 6) were having "issues" keeping all their toys picked up. So shortly after Xmas, my wife and I removed 1/2 of their toys, mostly the ones they didn't play with much anyway, and stored them in bins in our garage attic. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, as you can imagine. We told them that after the last day of school in June, they could swap out the stored toys with the toys that made the cut back in December, thus keeping 1/2 the toys in attic storage and 1/2 out and active all the time. After a while they didn't even miss the stored toys. They system works pretty well - they are able to pick up after themselves better and we gained a lot of storage space in our family room. Plus, that magic "swap out" day in June was just like another Xmas.
I briefely considered a garage layout, but I get way too much dirt in there for it to be feasible.
cuyama Shopcat Build it. Go for it. You did notice the point that he can't reach the back half if something ever derails, right?
I haven't given much thought to that yet, but that is a very good point. I like the idea of have the layout on wheels!
odave HanselAfter listening to all of your advice, I just might wait until the kids are old enough that they don't need the shelf space and floor space to play with toys You may want to evaluate how much the kids' toys are actually being played with and store some of them away to gain some space. Our younger kids (5 and 6) were having "issues" keeping all their toys picked up. So shortly after Xmas, my wife and I removed 1/2 of their toys, mostly the ones they didn't play with much anyway, and stored them in bins in our garage attic. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, as you can imagine. We told them that after the last day of school in June, they could swap out the stored toys with the toys that made the cut back in December, thus keeping 1/2 the toys in attic storage and 1/2 out and active all the time. After a while they didn't even miss the stored toys. They system works pretty well - they are able to pick up after themselves better and we gained a lot of storage space in our family room. Plus, that magic "swap out" day in June was just like another Xmas. I briefely considered a garage layout, but I get way too much dirt in there for it to be feasible.
Funny you should mention that, we are about to have a garage sale of all of the toys that they don't play with. They figure they can use the money to buy toys and games that are more approriate for their current age.
I wondered where all of my toys went when I was a kid. If only my parents would have kept my G.I. Joe toys, I would probably be a millionaire!