I have just completed ballasting a three track area all using fine Woodland Scenic. I used a pippet to soak with alcohol followed by diluted white glue, 1 part glue to 3 parts water, The roadbed is cork and the track is HO code 83.
First, it is impossible to not have those little granules all over the place, especially on top of the ties. I started doing small sections at a time, right, center and left on each of the first two tracks. On the last track I did it all at once.
When it was dried I had pieces of gravel over the tops of the ties as well as up the sides to some degree. To clean it up I used a vacuum cleaner. I rubbed the top of the ties to loosen the bits and get them out of the way. As I did, chunks of ballast broke loose and were sucked up too.
Now I have nasty looking holes, especially between the ties and tails and it really looks terrible.
I made a two track section to use to take pictures using medium ballast and the same kind of track. I put both side by side and the medium looks a lot better and neater. The ballast on this section was spread and adhered the same as the problem area.
Before I remove all of the nasty looking fine; what might I have done wrong. I thought it was soaked properly. There isn't a way I could have known there was not enough by looking at it.
I think the medium ballast allowed the alcohol and diluted glue to flow better thus resulting a much better looking result.
Comments and opinions welcome.
Bob
Photobucket Albums:NPBL - 2008 The BeginningNPBL - 2009 Phase INPBL - 2010 Downtown
I found the same, oddly, when I used a brown walnut shell WS ballast on a small section of my first layout. I didn't like how it looked, and when it broke up by misadventure, it came up in chunks as you describe. I haven't used it since.
You can get scale sized ballast in real rocks from suppliers. I think one is called Arizona Minerals or something...someone will provide it shortly. The point is, the heavier rock particles worked for me, although mine came from the beach just 100 yards from my house.
The only other difference is that I used yellow glue, and much more diluted, about twice what you used. Even though I use less of the glue, and don't soak the ballast as many do, I still have hard ballast that stays put, and the yellow glue doesn't seem to alter the freshly poured look substantially...when it is still unglued.
-Crandell
selector IYou can get scale sized ballast in real rocks from suppliers. I think one is called Arizona Minerals or something...someone will provide it shortly. The point is, the heavier rock particles worked for me, although mine came from the beach just 100 yards from my house.
IYou can get scale sized ballast in real rocks from suppliers. I think one is called Arizona Minerals or something...someone will provide it shortly. The point is, the heavier rock particles worked for me, although mine came from the beach just 100 yards from my house.
http://www.rrscenery.com/
markpierce selector IYou can get scale sized ballast in real rocks from suppliers. I think one is called Arizona Minerals or something...someone will provide it shortly. The point is, the heavier rock particles worked for me, although mine came from the beach just 100 yards from my house. http://www.rrscenery.com/
Forget to say say I've used their products and recommend them.
Mark
Thanks for you comments and suggestions. If you will reread my original post you will notices that my experiment with medium size WS ballast was successful. I think, unless I get inconvertible advise to the contrary, I will break up, and suck up the fine ballast catastrophe and try the WS medium.
I have a lot of the WS product and would like to use it.
Bob,
I use all types of ballast including WS fine. I haven't had the problems you are having. I also like the real rock ballast as well as real dirt depending on the circumstance.
I tend to think of the WS material as more like sawdust than mini rocks. It changes how I handle the material. I tend to be much more gentle etc.. I haven't noticed much difference between the WS fine and medium ballast in terms of glue application and holding powers. However, your theory does make some sense in regards to the medium allowing better flow through of the glue. I use mostly fine (I'm in HO) because I think it looks closer to scale.
Suggestions:
1. Use more glue when gluing down the ballast. Soak it throughly. The glue should look like spilled milk and run all over (it will dry).
2. Allow the ballast to dry for several days before trying to clean it up with a vacuum. It takes a few days for the ballast to dry all the way through even though it will look dry on the surface.
3. Use 2:1 glue ratio. Maybe your glue was further diluted by the alcohol to the point that it didn't hold as well as it might have.
Ballasting is actually a lot of work if you are trying to get the look of Class one mainline track. It takes quite a bit of patience to form the right profile and move the ballast around so it is not on the tops of ties or stuck to the rails. I often go back with an exacto knife and remove errant glued on ballast that I missed in the initial pass through.
There are countless threads on the techniques, I would sum up with one word: Patience. If that doesn't get the results you want, then the other words might be "Do it over" (I have many times, on all types of projects).
This roadbed uses WS and real stone in a variety of proportions:
Another shot of a combo of WS and real stone:
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Hi Guy,
Thanks for the feedback. I have to say after looking at the photo of the locomotive I see you SEEM to have the same problem. Maybe my expectations are for a perfectly smooth and level ballast, like pavement. My expectations may be unrealistic. Your picture has similar gaps. Of course I cannot look down at yours but yours do have them.
My mistake may have been not letting it dry more than about 12 hours. But gee...
My glue when applied did have the "spilled milk" look.
trainnut1250It takes quite a bit of patience to form the right profile and move the ballast around so it is not on the tops of ties or stuck to the rails.
There is no way to get the stray pieces off the ties before the application of alcohol and glue. Even if it could be done they would float back up there...
I asked my wife to look at your picture, then my trackage. She said yours and mine were similar. Again the pavement expectation.
I will try to post a picture or add some to photo bucket and add a link.
Other comments welcome.
Looking at Trainnut1250's photos I think he has done a marvellous job - and some terrific advice to go with it. I reckon if yours looks like that you should be laughing. If I ever get more layout space I'll look into the WS/rock blend.
I've used WS fine and medium [prefer the fine by a long way] and after a thorough soaking with glue [50-50 for me] mine too has stayed wet for several days. I like to stain it with watery paint - ink as suggested earlier is a good idea! - and if I don't wait long enough the whole lot starts to disintegrate.
On a side note, I've found if you grind up the WS fine with a mortar and pestle it's not bad at resembling clayey soil. I stain that too. Haven't had so much luck with the medium though. It seems harder to pulverise. Dunno why.
Mike
Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0
Here's a method that works well, and deals with the problems which you encountered.
Wayne
I do believe I figured out the problem. ME. I was scraping up the disappointing ballast up so I could start over. What I did last night was simple using dental tools.
Imagine my surprise when I started to do the other tracks. They were much harder. I knew there had to be something I did different.
It may sound simple, and I may be wrong.
I intentionally didn't shake up the diluted glue. SHAKE BEFORE USING...
I think the glue was sitting on the bottom of the container and I was distributing very weak glue.
I could be wrong, not the first time. I will give it a try in the next couple of days.
If it came off in chunks, that liekly mean the glue never really penetrated. Do you have 'hard' water in your area? I do, and no amount of dish soap in the water would allow a water/glue mix to soak into my ballast. What I did instead was simply mix the glue with isopropyl alcohol, and it worked great. I used regualr Elmer's glue about 50/50 with 70% (the cheap low strength stuff) and had no problems with the glue puddling up on top of the ballast. It's obvious when it works - you put a drop of glue mix on and it disappears liek it's getting soaked into a towel. This was with WS ballast, no problem with 'floaters'. It's imperative that if you want no balalst on top of the ties that they be cleaned off before applying the glue. The whole process to me is quite tedious, but if you work slowly and carefully it will work. Another feature of mixing the glue with alcohol - I used a paper cup for mixing, and even the next day the stuff in the cup was still liquid and probably usable. I didn't actually try it, but it could be worth a test - not that white glue and cheap store brand 70% rubbing alcohol is expensive.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Mark, thanks for supplying the correct name for AZ Rock and Mineral.
I try hard to have my ballast distributed evenly, and not on the ties, but a few grains always end up there. I wait for the glue to dry thoroughly and then chip off the outlyers with a screwdriver or knife. If the ballast comes off in chunks, it's not dry yet. I give mine at least 24 hours, and sometimes 48 if it's very humid. Using alcohol as the wetting agent, by the way, speeds drying. When I used the old standby dish-soap-in-water it would take 3 or 4 days.
I haven't tried it, but someone a while back suggested using an electric shaver as a "ballast tamper." Simply turn on the shaver and slide it slowly along the rails. The vibration settles the ballast, but there isn't enough energy to lift ballast out of the grooves and back on top of the ties again.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I've found that white glue tends to be "brittle" when dry, and will as you noted break off in chunks if you're working around it. Although it's more expensive, matte medium dries to a softer, rubbery consitency and doesn't seem to have the problems white glue does.
Capt. GrimekDr. Wayne, I'm not able to access your pics on "Big Blue". Any ideas? I'm using a Mac and your link on this thread. Thanks. (I get ? marks in frames instead of pics).
My apologies. I was unaware that you have to join-up in order to view the pictures. Even though it's free to join, a bit of a nuisance if you want just a quick look. Is the text viewable, or is it also blocked? I can re-post it here if not.
doctorwayne Capt. GrimekDr. Wayne, I'm not able to access your pics on "Big Blue". Any ideas? I'm using a Mac and your link on this thread. Thanks. (I get ? marks in frames instead of pics). My apologies. I was unaware that you have to join-up in order to view the pictures. Even though it's free to join, a bit of a nuisance if you want just a quick look. Is the text viewable, or is it also blocked? I can re-post it here if not. Wayne
The text is viewable, but the pictures aren't unless you're logged in.
Andre
Thanks, Andre.
The photos in the original post mainly illustrate the procedure for wetting the area and applying the glue/water mixture. While they show an application of ground cover, the procedure for ballasting is the same.
Wet the area thoroughly with "wet" water:
Apply the glue/water mixture liberally:
Allow area to dry:
The scenes below were accomplished in the same manner, with ballast, sub-ballast, rock fill, and ground cover all applied at the same time:
After spreading the ballast, I tap the top of the rails with the handle of my brush. The vibrations knock any stray grains of ballast off the ties or rail. I also prefer to use a 50/50ish mix of alcohol and water as my wetting agent and a 50/50ish mix of white glue and water to secure the ballast. Occasionally, the ballast will chip, but it's not a huge problem.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
This definitely takes some practice and everyone else has given good suggestions about glue ratios, etc. My comment is that I have stayed away from using WS medium ballast because it looks like the wrong scale. When you put an HO figure next to the medium balast, the individual balast rocks are the size of footballs! I"ve not seen balast this large on any railroad. So I mix the fine in a couple of different colors and add in a touch of WS cinders.
This is what I used to spread out my ballast. Got it at Wal-Mart for a couple of bucks. It spreads the ballast real nice.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
The only problem I´ve had with ballasting is that I sometimes found it hard to settle it properly. After some thinking I came to think about how they do it "full size", they use some kind of rods that shakes the ballast in place. I have now solved it, suffice it to say that I am married and have been ballasting when no one is around .
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I use Matte Medium instead of Elmers Glue. It spreads better and once it dries (about 24 to 48 hours for a 1:1 mix of matte medium and water), trains run over it a lot more quietly than over dried Elmers Glue. And, if it ever becomes necessary to remove ballasted track, it is a lot easier to salvage track that has been ballasted with a matte medium mix.
Alton Junction
I admit to never having used Woodland Scenics materials. I am a proponent of Highball Products ballast, in large part, I suppose, because about 15 years ago an acquaintance of mine was giving up model railroading and gave me about 3 lbs of light gray HO-Scale ballast. I chew this stuff up in one of my gee-yard-sales-are-wonderful blenders and then run it through a very fine strainer and mix it with Highball's black N-Scale ballast which renders a salt-and-pepper flavored rock. What doesn't fall through this very fine strainer is then strained through progressively larger weave strainers until eventually I have material which looks great for talus. It's been a few years now since I did it but most recently, like Mr Selector, I have been going out into the dry washes on the desert and coming home with a couple of buckets of sand which I run through my strainer sequence. I run this across a magnet to insure that I haven't inadvertently picked up some stray iron. It takes me a couple of bucks in gas but "free" is always a very good price.
In reading your post I have absolutely no idea just why you are having so much trouble with your ballasting. Using a pipette to wet your ballast should not account for why you are getting ballast grains atop your ties unless you are being sloppy in just how you lay down your ballast material in the first place. Try this: after you have laid down your ballast smooth everything out with a 1 1/2" brush; this will wipe the top of your ties free from any loose ballast. Mist your ballast with wet water--a couple of drops of diswasher soap to a pint or so of water does the trick for me. Your ballast needs to be thoroughly wet but should not be so wet that it is soggy. You sound like you have the right glue to water mix--I use closer to 1:2 myself and I use white glue instead of matte medium as some others advocate; the main reason for this, I suppose, is because as an apartment dweller for so many years I had to consider all my layouts as temporary; I will probably give serious consideration to matte medium when I begin my next layout a couple of years down the road. You do need to make sure that you are holding however you are applying your water and glue mix close to the ties in order to prevent dribbling liquid from displacing your ballast. I don't worry about getting glue atop my ties; after everything has dried to go over everything with one of these sanding sponges which cleans everything up pretty good.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
R. T. POTEET (snip).....You sound like you have the right glue to water mix--I use closer to 1:2 myself and I use white glue instead of matte medium as some others advocate; the main reason for this, I suppose, is because as an apartment dweller for so many years I had to consider all my layouts as temporary; I will probably give serious consideration to matte medium when I begin my next layout a couple of years down the road....(snip)
(snip).....You sound like you have the right glue to water mix--I use closer to 1:2 myself and I use white glue instead of matte medium as some others advocate; the main reason for this, I suppose, is because as an apartment dweller for so many years I had to consider all my layouts as temporary; I will probably give serious consideration to matte medium when I begin my next layout a couple of years down the road....(snip)
Properly applied, white glue and matte medium perform the same, although I'm not sure how easy cured matte medium would be to remove. Otherwise, the main difference between the two is cost - Almost $21.00 for 16oz. of matte medium vs $16.00 for 128oz. of white glue. To add further expense, it's recommended that matte medium be thinned no more that 25%, as greater thinning decreases adhesion. Like the metal wheels vs plastic wheels controversy, one may prefer either - where performance is equal, though, I opt for economy.
doctorwayne Ka-Snip- Otherwise, the main difference between the two is cost - Almost $21.00 for 16oz. of matte medium vs $16.00 for 128oz. of white glue. To add further expense, it's recommended that matte medium be thinned no more that 25%, as greater thinning decreases adhesion. Like the metal wheels vs plastic wheels controversy, one may prefer either - where performance is equal, though, I opt for economy. Wayne
Ka-Snip-
Otherwise, the main difference between the two is cost - Almost $21.00 for 16oz. of matte medium vs $16.00 for 128oz. of white glue. To add further expense, it's recommended that matte medium be thinned no more that 25%, as greater thinning decreases adhesion. Like the metal wheels vs plastic wheels controversy, one may prefer either - where performance is equal, though, I opt for economy.
I´d rather pay $9.49 for 16 oz of MM that¨s also so concentrated that it should be mixed 1:4 parts water for 'ready-prepared.
http://www.sceneryexpress.com/prodinfo.asp?number=EX0030
GraffenI´d rather pay $9.49 for 16 oz of MM that¨s also so concentrated that it should be mixed 1:4 parts water for 'ready-prepared.
As I said, similar to the metal wheel situation - some will replace plastic wheels with metal for no other reason than "others" are doing so. You are perfectly free to spend $9.49 for 80oz. of "ready-prepared" scenic fixative. Having used both, I'll still opt for 256 oz. at a cost of $16.00, or just over $ .06 per ounce for the white glue mix versus almost $ .12/oz. for matte medium. Most people would jump at the chance to get the same results for half the cost. Or..., maybe not.
But the point is that you don´t get the same result. The matte medium ballast is quieter and easier to work with, And as stated earlier: White glue gets really brittle after some time whereas the matte medium stays flexible. That is also why you don´t use white glue to make the trees from Scenic Express, they break if you do.
Obviously, results vary. I've used both and, after 15-or-so years, I can see no difference, either in the quietness of the layout or in the performance of one versus the other. Both methods are equally easy to use, so, for me, cost carries the day. On those rare occasions when I vacuum the layout, all of the ballast and ground cover stays where it should, too.