The subject line asks the question, which occurred to me as I was soldering the joins on some turns I just modified (see another thread on my problem with tight turns on an old layout).
Has anyone just flung caution to the winds and relied on the rail joiners to provide good electrical contact on their own? If so, any problems?
I've always taken soldering the joins as a tedious but necessary step. But is it, in fact, dispensable?
This topic generally pops up every few months, with the general concensus that relying on the rail joiners alone is not recommended. Some modellers advocate the use of bus wires below the benchwork, with feeders to each piece of rail, while others rely on soldered rail joiners. If your layout is not subject to extemes in temperature, soldering will work well, as rail expansion and contraction will be minimal. Otherwise, the use of feeders is probably the wisest choice. You could also combine the two methods, soldering several lengths of track together, then adding feeders to each soldered section. Relying solely on the rail joiners anywhere is trouble waiting to happen.
My basement layout, seen HERE and HERE, in an unheated but well-insulated room, varies little in temperature throughout the year, so I soldered all of my rail joints, then cut gaps for electrical control as required - I'm using DC, with walk-around control, and didn't bother with bus wires, although the throttle plug-ins do have a bus back to the power source.
Wayne
Hi "Goodnight,"
I always solder rail joiners in curves, less for electrical continuity than to avoid kinks at the joints. Solder the joint while the last couple inches of rail are still straight, then bend the curve, and you'll never get a kink.
On straight track I leave the joiners unsoldered to allow for expansion, and I leave a .016-inch space (the thickness of an NMRA HO scale standards gage) between the rail ends in the joiner.
I try not to depend on rail joiners to carry current at all, by soldering a feeder to every length of rail. I'll have an article on this, called "Bullet-proof track wiring," in our Realistic Reliable Track special issue coming up in August. (You can order it now on this Web site.)
So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
hey Wayne, none of the pictures come up on either of those links you posted...
Anyway, this depends on what kind of track you have, either flex or handlaid. Generally, I don't even use rail jointer anymore, because i think they look highly unrealistic and ruin good photos. I just put a feeder wire to each piece of rail, and then also don't have to ever worry about current drop in the far-reaches of my layout.
If you want electrical continuity, you can buy pewter joint bars from the Proto87 Stores and solder them across the joints of your track. I handlay my track, so kinks at curve joints aren't that big of an issue, since the ends are spiked into place...
However, flextrack should be soldered on curves, even if you're using Micro Engineering flextrack, which holds its shape for 96% of each piece. The ends just don't hold curves hardly at all, so you'll need to solder them.
OR!!!
One thing that I've sort of tried out a little bit, which I've read about, and which I believe Pelle Soeberg does, which I think is genius, is this: Instead of having to solder rail joiners, what you do is have extra lengths of rail jutting out the end of a piece by sliding the rail up through the ties, so that on one end you have extra rail jutting out, and at the other end you have a section of ties with no rail in them.
Then, you take the rail from one piece and slide it up into the empty tie slots on another piece, essentially making it one giant piece of flextrack. This way, you can bend them on curves, and you won't have any kinking issues, because you have combined the two into one big piece where the ends of the rails and the ends of the ties do not meet up.
I don't know if this would work by sliding only ONE rail since you would still have a joint at the end of one piece of rail and the ties, as you would still need a rail joiner for that section.
But its easy to just snip a piece of rail inside of the piece of flextrack, and then slide it out the end of the ties, so that you can slide a piece of rail up into its place.
I solder joints on curves only. My intention is to be able to reuse track as much as possible with as little work as possible if it becomes necessary to rip up what I've laid. I think I'll try the Soeberg method since I have a medium radius curve to lay sometime this weekend.
DeadheadGreghey Wayne, none of the pictures come up on either of those links you posted...
Must be something on your end, Greg - I logged-out and checked both links and they work fine.
doctorwayne DeadheadGreg hey Wayne, none of the pictures come up on either of those links you posted... Must be something on your end, Greg - I logged-out and checked both links and they work fine. Wayne
DeadheadGreg hey Wayne, none of the pictures come up on either of those links you posted...
I'm not so sure - none of the pictures came up for me either.
DeadheadGregGenerally, I don't even use rail jointer anymore, because i think they look highly unrealistic and ruin good photos.
This is one of those posts that fill me with envious admiration. I do not have a steady hand. Whatever things I can do well, precision will never be among them. If I tried to do without joiners the tracks would never line up. I know: I tried doing a lift-out section for tunnel access on a previous layout and it was a disaster. Derailments every single time. One track higher than the other... fix that, and one track off to one side... fix that, and... and... and... I eventually settled on a concealed hole in the fascia.
Then there's the concept of actual hand-laid track, which fills me with jaw-dropping, uncomprehending amazement. In a century of trying I'd never get the rails the right distance apart even on one short straight section.
On the other hand, "highly unrealistic" is practically one of my givens, maybe even a druther, so it doesn't bother me too much. All of my layouts have had a forest with lurking dinosaurs. My new one's going to have a section of mainline running behind a waterfall (which is also going to "pour" over the edge of the fascia for a postmodernist, fourth-wall-breaking touch).
With so much information out here on the subject of soldering, I am surprised that this has even come up. If done correctly, (and if you don't know how, read the info out here, and try it to get some expertise-you can do it), soldered joints are a reliable venue, coupled with a buss and jumpers.
Keep in mind that if you are using nickel silver, there is a resistance factor and it does come into play; evey joint adding to the total. Just use the buss system if you can, and you won't have to worry about most issues concerning running current through the track as sole conductor.
Try acccessing John Pryke's article in July 2003 MR: "The Lost Art of Soldering".
Rich
I solder all joints, including turnouts and crossings. I feed power to every single section of track, including the stock rail and frogs on turnouts, and never have problems with electrical contact. It's the only way.
John Timm
I rely on soldered connections to assure that there is positive power to every millimeter of rail that might ever feel the weight of a locomotive.
I do NOT solder rail joiners - never, ever.
The reason for that seeming contradiction is that, in my layout space (non-climate controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert) rail expansion IS a factor. I took a storage shelf, laid with tightly butted joints in a 68 degree climate-controlled space, into its new home in August, 2004. When I went back the next day my nice straight flex looked like sidewinder tracks! Now, when I lay track in the cool of winter, I leave at least a millimeter of expansion room at every joint between full-length rail sections. When the temperature tickles 120 degrees F, those joints are not quite closed.
What I do is solder jumpers around every uninsulated rail joint. There's only a single feeder to each jumpered-together section, but the longest is about 6 yards long and fed from the middle. By putting an expansion bend in each jumper the rails are free to creep, within limits, and the propulsion power circuit is bulletproof.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I never used to solder railjoiners but I choose to do so on the new layout, never again. I am a person who takes forever to make up his mind and thik nothing of making changes on the fly to my track plan whihc by the way there is no track plan it just happeneds. So when you solder railjoiners unless your real good at unsoldering you waste a lot of expensive track. I recently visited a large club layout not far from my home in NJ and the guys there told me they never solder rail joiner but do "daisy chain" solder each track to one anoother. So the track is put down with track nails etc. and they solder from rail to rail hidding it of course under the layout and then weather and ballast etc. All I can say is their track work was some of the finest I have ever seen and their trains run flawlessly. They told me when you solder joiners you tend to get warpage do to heat. So from now on I think I will adopt their method for my piece of mind.
I know this'll put me in the bullseye, but I've never soldered joints. I SUCK at soldering.
That said, Atlas c100 flex and Atlas terminal rail joiners every other joint and NO problems.
DCC. HO.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Greg H.doctorwayne DeadheadGreg hey Wayne, none of the pictures come up on either of those links you posted... Must be something on your end, Greg - I logged-out and checked both links and they work fine. Wayne I'm not so sure - none of the pictures came up for me either.
Very strange - even if I'm not logged-in here, both links work on either IE or Firefox for me. The links are to threads in another forum, with lots of pictures and comments. I'm not too conversant with computer-speak, but I'm told that "cookies" need to be enabled.
I couldn't see the pics either until I sugned up for Big Blue.
I never solder rail joiners. Instead, I have plenty of feeder wires joined to bus wires. I think it is much easier to solder a feeder wire to the rail than to solder rail joiners.
As I am usually building small layouts, I never encounterd a problem with conductivity.
I notice that most of the posters here use far more feeder lines to the track than I do. (Maybe it's because I do solder all joins that I can get away with it?) I typically have feeders only every 8 track-feet or so. Apparently this statistic will make others shudder with horror, but I've never had any problem. (When I do, then I will change.)
TheGoodnight I notice that most of the posters here use far more feeder lines to the track than I do. (Maybe it's because I do solder all joins that I can get away with it?) I typically have feeders only every 8 track-feet or so. Apparently this statistic will make others shudder with horror, but I've never had any problem. (When I do, then I will change.)
It may not have been clear in my original post, but I have a single pair of feeders to my track, and have experienced no power problems in over 200' of mainline. Control is DC, with all rail joints soldered. Most trains are double headed, although, when my grandkids visit, I have run over a dozen locos at once.
doctorwayne Very strange - even if I'm not logged-in here, both links work on either IE or Firefox for me. The links are to threads in another forum, with lots of pictures and comments. I'm not too conversant with computer-speak, but I'm told that "cookies" need to be enabled. Wayne
<shrug>
I don't allow cookies from strange websites ( even with AV software it can be risky ), and some places will not show pics even then unless you join.
For these reasons if I share pics, I use photo-bucket or similar hosting service that doesn't require people to have cookies enabled or a membership.
I understand your position, Greg. I normally use photobucket when posting here, or when posting at that particular site when the "lifespan" of the image is not a concern. For work that I wish to be more permanent, though, I put my images in the Forum's own gallery.
TheGoodnight DeadheadGregGenerally, I don't even use rail jointer anymore, because i think they look highly unrealistic and ruin good photos. This is one of those posts that fill me with envious admiration. I do not have a steady hand. Whatever things I can do well, precision will never be among them. If I tried to do without joiners the tracks would never line up. I know: I tried doing a lift-out section for tunnel access on a previous layout and it was a disaster. Derailments every single time. One track higher than the other... fix that, and one track off to one side... fix that, and... and... and... I eventually settled on a concealed hole in the fascia. Then there's the concept of actual hand-laid track, which fills me with jaw-dropping, uncomprehending amazement. In a century of trying I'd never get the rails the right distance apart even on one short straight section.
I think I MAY have mis-spoken. Basically... I have two layouts: my home layout, and the NEB&W up at RPI, in Troy, NY. The latter being the Renssalear Model Railroad Society, which has been featured many many times in MR, and has a few GMR videos done on it.
Right now, we have a new addition on which I'm laying the track, handlaying everything. On that, I don't use rail joiners WHATSOEVER, even on curves. I just spike the crap out of it. haha. The only spot where I used a rail joiner was on the end of a spur, where I just REALLY didn't feel like drilling another hole into the benchwork and soldering another feeder wire to a piece of rail only like, 5 inches long. So I just dealt with it and use a rail joiner and soldered that. WAY easier than trying to solder a feeder to the bottom of a piece of ME weathered rail, haha.
Now, on my home layout, I'm using a combination of ME flex track and semi-handlaid (using Central Valley plastic tie-strips). On straight sections of rail, I don't use rail joiners. As long as you spike or nail or glue your track properly, you're golden. On curves, though, I use rail joiners, because i haven't finished permanently installing my track. I have a hunch that once I get my permanent roadbed down, I'll be able to spike the flex in place the way I do with individual pieces of rail on the NEB&W to avoid using rail joiners.
BUT ALSO... I DO use joint bars. They can take the place of rail joiners, sort of. as long as you super-glue them to the rails, you're set. This is easier on straight, but can be done on curves.
Now, about your handlaying deal... you don't have to be super anal about guage. As long as you've got a set or 2 of 3-point guages and an NMRA guage, you're set. Thats all you need. It doesn't have to 100% exactly the same spacing for every single nanometer of track. That said, if you don't enjoy handlaying it, then you shouldn't do it. I'm not sure there is ANYBODY that slogs through handlaying a whole layout ONLY because they like the look that much more than flextrack. I LUV handlaying track. Its so... relaxing, in a weird way. I donno. I just love doing it.
I'd come handlay track for people if I could. I absolutely love doing it. I actually dread having a finished layout, because then I'll be done laying track, and I don't ever want to not be laying track, lol.
Anybody want someone to come handlay their layout? haha
I generally don't solder rail joiners to allow for expansion or contraction of the wood benchwork as humidity changes or the wood ages. I will solder joiners on flex track curves to avoid kinks at the joint. I don't rely on rail joiners to conduct electricity.
I use a bus (#14 copper house wire) with feeders to every other section of track to get the juice out there. If you think about it, each piece of flex track can get electricity from either end. You have to have two rail joiners fail before a section of track looses power. That's not real likely to happen. With electrical feeders on every other piece of track I have never had a loss of juice problem.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I solder rail joiners on curves with flextrack, and all my feed wires are soldered to rain joiners. I never solder anything to turnouts, crossovers, or most sectional track. When I demolished my old layout and built the new one, I was able to salvage over 95% of the track. I do have feed wires about every six feet and on both ends of every turnout. I also put a drop of Rail Zip in every joiner when laying track. I can only recall one instance of losing electrical continuity in around 350 feet of track.
Wayne.
I tried BOTH links just now, and I can't get any pictures to show.
Blue Flamer.
Blue FlamerWayne.I tried BOTH links just now, and I can't get any pictures to show.Blue Flamer.
Sorry about that. I was unaware that you must join that forum in order to view pictures that are linked from the forum's own gallery. The first is a layout (room) tour, while the second is an imaginary flight over the layout, progressively showing the trackplan, structures, and scenery.
I may be in the minority, but I never solder rail joiners and I only use drop wires about every six feet or so on a fairly large layout. The only time that I have ever encountered problems is after ballasting the track. When the diluted matte medium dried, in just a few instances, the matte medium had seeped into the rail joiner effectively insulating the rail. I simply used a pair of snip nose pliers to move the rail joiner back and forth a few times, and the problem went away. Shame on me, but it sure saves a lot of time and aggravation.
Alton Junction
Did'nt show up for me either
As Mr S said, soldering railjoints, particularly on curves, does prevent those pesky kinks.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Nothing takes the enjoyment out of running trains more than having then stumble or stall because of loss of power. And true to some evil law of physics, it usually happens when you are showing off your layout. For that reason over the years I have concentrated on making the wiring and trackwork bulletproof.
To reiterate what I posted above, I wire everything and I solder everything. If you are concerned about layout expansion, look to the underlayment, not the track. The coefficient of expansion of NS rail is minimal. If your track is warping, it is not the rail that causes it. As to soldering everything, don't worry about taking it apart for repair or to salvage for another layout. Anyone who knows how to solder rail joiners can learn how to un-solder. It is not really all that hard and the tools are available as close as your nearest Radio Shack or on the Internet.