Harry,
I would not call that a 4 x 8 layout. that is more like a 1/2 by 64 layout Why not post a picture of it here?
As others have noted, 4' x 8' doesn't really mean much, because it can be shaped in so many different ways.
I have a very prototypical 4' x 8' layout. I cut the sheet of plywood into 8 six inch wide strips, each of which are 8 feet long, and joined them end to end. So the result is a layout 6" wide and 64 feet long. The mainline is almost straight, but not quite.
The result is a virtually exact scale model of a one mile section of BNSF mainline between San Antonia and Laredo. It is very realistic. You have to see it to believe it.
- Harry
IRONROOSTER Actually, I have seen a small room filled wall to wall with layout. It was a club layout and they operated it from popup holes. The layout was built high to make it easy to move around underneath. But I wouldn't recommend it. As to moving the layout on wheels, the trick is to use big wheels that swivel so that movement is easy. Coupled with the new lightweight materials available for layout building, you should be able to move it easily. The right solution for each of us is different, I'm just pointing out that the space required for a 4x8 layout is less than most people assume. Not applicable to your situation maybe, but a layout on wheels could be the solution for a room used for other purposes.
Actually, I have seen a small room filled wall to wall with layout. It was a club layout and they operated it from popup holes. The layout was built high to make it easy to move around underneath. But I wouldn't recommend it.
As to moving the layout on wheels, the trick is to use big wheels that swivel so that movement is easy. Coupled with the new lightweight materials available for layout building, you should be able to move it easily.
The right solution for each of us is different, I'm just pointing out that the space required for a 4x8 layout is less than most people assume. Not applicable to your situation maybe, but a layout on wheels could be the solution for a room used for other purposes.
Sure. A 4x8 on wheels is sometimes a good idea. It is just not a very good idea for a room smaller then 8x10 feet, and not necessarily a great idea for an 8x10 or 10x12 feet room either.
Putting a 4x8 into a small room (e.g my 6.5 x 11.5 sized room) does not really leave room for any other uses of the room. Wrestling the layout from wall to wall even precludes putting storage shelves above or below the layout along the walls, since you need the space along the walls for access aisles for your layout.
A 4x8 H0 scale layout on wheels would be a decent space use solution for a layout that live in a corner or along the wall of a bigger room (like a basement den or an attic), where there is actually ample space to pull the layout out into the room to operate it or work on it, but where the layout should be stowed away against the wall, to maximize floor space in front of the layout when access to the rear part of the layout is not needed.
That 8x10 floor space should be there, though, so you can use it when you need to pull your 4x8 layout out to work on it.
Anyways - clearly one person can shoehorn in a layout where another can't find room. I would perhaps hestitate to advise a new model railroader that a 4x8 H0 scale is a good choice for a small room, but my comment on how my room was too small for a 4x8 was not really the core issue in this thread - which was metrics to describe and compare layout sizes.
Grin,Stein
When my interest in model railroading was re-kindled, the first layout I built was a 4 x 8, because I thought that was the max I could get out of the given space. I had put it on wheels for easier handling, which turned out to be necessary. I had to move it around more often than I thought, for wiring, for landscaping and detailing or even fix a derailment. Thank god the space was there to handle the layout....
4 x 8´s do eat up a lot of space!
steinjrIRONROOSTER steinjr... A straight 4x8 is an 32 square feet layout area. It needs a footprint of 8x10 feet (80 square feet) to allow a 2 feet wide operators aisle down two long sides and one short side). Ie room utilization: 32/80 = 40%. As an example: my layout is in a room that is 6.5 x 11.5 feet = 74 square feet. Quick observation no 1: my available room is too small for a 4x8 layout. My layout area is 38 square feet. Room utilization: 38/74 = 51% of the room area is used for the actual layout. ... Smile, Stein If you put the 4x8 on wheels you only need a 6x10 ft room with 2 ft aisles. In your case, with a 6.5x11.5, I would make the layout 4x9.5 to allow a more comfortable 2.5 ft aisle on the long side where most of the operating is done. This is also 38 sq. ft. of layout. Enjoy Theoretically, I could also fill the room with a wall to wall layout, and build and operated it with me hanging from a hangglider harness mounted on a track in the ceiling that allowed me to hover over various parts of the layout at various times. Neither solution (moving a 4 x 9.5 foot layout by wrestling with it from the short end, or hovering from a harness in the ceiling) strikes me as all that practical or enjoyable, but different people have different thresholds for what is practical and what is enjoyable One could of course motorize the movement of the table from side to side of the room, and remove the 1x2 feet chimney base in one corner of the room to be able to squueze in a 38 square feet 4 x 9.5 feet island layout in my 6.5 x 11.5 room. But I think that if I wanted to get more layout area, I would just make more of my shelves 2 feet deep. As it is now, the shelves are only 2 feet deep along 2 of the four wall. Theoretically, 2 feet deep shelves all around a 6,5 x 11,7 feet big room would give 52 square feet of layout area, and an operator pit that is 2.5 feet deep and 7.5 feet long. Knock off 2 square feet for the chimney base and 5 square feet for making the duckunder/lif-out by the door be 3 feet x 6" instead of 3 feet x 2', and you have about 45 square feet of layout. Without any wrestling Grin, Stein
IRONROOSTER steinjr... A straight 4x8 is an 32 square feet layout area. It needs a footprint of 8x10 feet (80 square feet) to allow a 2 feet wide operators aisle down two long sides and one short side). Ie room utilization: 32/80 = 40%. As an example: my layout is in a room that is 6.5 x 11.5 feet = 74 square feet. Quick observation no 1: my available room is too small for a 4x8 layout. My layout area is 38 square feet. Room utilization: 38/74 = 51% of the room area is used for the actual layout. ... Smile, Stein If you put the 4x8 on wheels you only need a 6x10 ft room with 2 ft aisles. In your case, with a 6.5x11.5, I would make the layout 4x9.5 to allow a more comfortable 2.5 ft aisle on the long side where most of the operating is done. This is also 38 sq. ft. of layout. Enjoy
steinjr... A straight 4x8 is an 32 square feet layout area. It needs a footprint of 8x10 feet (80 square feet) to allow a 2 feet wide operators aisle down two long sides and one short side). Ie room utilization: 32/80 = 40%. As an example: my layout is in a room that is 6.5 x 11.5 feet = 74 square feet. Quick observation no 1: my available room is too small for a 4x8 layout. My layout area is 38 square feet. Room utilization: 38/74 = 51% of the room area is used for the actual layout. ... Smile, Stein
A straight 4x8 is an 32 square feet layout area. It needs a footprint of 8x10 feet (80 square feet) to allow a 2 feet wide operators aisle down two long sides and one short side). Ie room utilization: 32/80 = 40%.
As an example: my layout is in a room that is 6.5 x 11.5 feet = 74 square feet.
Quick observation no 1: my available room is too small for a 4x8 layout.
Smile, Stein
If you put the 4x8 on wheels you only need a 6x10 ft room with 2 ft aisles.
In your case, with a 6.5x11.5, I would make the layout 4x9.5 to allow a more comfortable 2.5 ft aisle on the long side where most of the operating is done. This is also 38 sq. ft. of layout.
Enjoy
Theoretically, I could also fill the room with a wall to wall layout, and build and operated it with me hanging from a hangglider harness mounted on a track in the ceiling that allowed me to hover over various parts of the layout at various times.
Neither solution (moving a 4 x 9.5 foot layout by wrestling with it from the short end, or hovering from a harness in the ceiling) strikes me as all that practical or enjoyable, but different people have different thresholds for what is practical and what is enjoyable
One could of course motorize the movement of the table from side to side of the room, and remove the 1x2 feet chimney base in one corner of the room to be able to squueze in a 38 square feet 4 x 9.5 feet island layout in my 6.5 x 11.5 room.
But I think that if I wanted to get more layout area, I would just make more of my shelves 2 feet deep. As it is now, the shelves are only 2 feet deep along 2 of the four wall. Theoretically, 2 feet deep shelves all around a 6,5 x 11,7 feet big room would give 52 square feet of layout area, and an operator pit that is 2.5 feet deep and 7.5 feet long.
Knock off 2 square feet for the chimney base and 5 square feet for making the duckunder/lif-out by the door be 3 feet x 6" instead of 3 feet x 2', and you have about 45 square feet of layout. Without any wrestling
Grin, Stein
Paul
In areas of the country where basements are common, I believe the average is a bit larger than 4x8. I'd guess something like 12x15 or so. And once you start a shelf around the walls, say 18 to 30 inches deep, rectangular size goes out the window. Or are we just talking about island layouts?
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
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danteThis is obviously an issue of limited significance; however, describing a layout by its overall dimensions gives the reader (or listener) an immediate general idea of the likely basic concept. Square footage is, to my mind, a "sub-descriptor" (if I may coin a phrase!) that adds information.Dante
This is obviously an issue of limited significance; however, describing a layout by its overall dimensions gives the reader (or listener) an immediate general idea of the likely basic concept. Square footage is, to my mind, a "sub-descriptor" (if I may coin a phrase!) that adds information.
Dante
Yup.
One way of describing the size and operational characteristics of a given layout and comparing the size and operational characteristics of two layouts is to use the /Joe Fugate formulas (based on earlier work by Roy Dohn): http://siskiyou.railfan.net/model/layoutDesign/layout.html
Allows you to get an impression of how big a space you need for the layout, how much of that space is used for layout and how much for aisles, mainline run, how many and how long trains can be run in a session without fiddling trains in staging and quite a few other things.
A couple of very simple numbers to described the size of a layout:
"Room" size (how much area must be available to build your layout) - e.g. 120 square feet (for a 12x10 or 12x10 or 8x15 feet layout - precise shape can often be adjusted). Can be a corner of a bigger room (e.g. a 10x12 corner of a bigger basement den).
Layout area (how much of that space is used for the actual layout - implies how much of the room size is needed for access aisles).
To compare two layouts with respect to room utilization you can calculate layout area / room area.
Quick observation no 2: any layout that has room utilization > 0.4 gives you more layout area for a given room size than a 4x8 layout put into the minimum space a 4x8 needs.
Joe used these stats to compare two 4x8 H0 plans from MR (quoting, hopefully well within fair use rules, from his web page mentioned above):
jfugate web page HO Soo Red Wing Division (12/94 MR) Room Area (sq ft): 96 Layout Area (sq ft): 32 (33%) Number Turnouts: 12 Total Track (ft/cars): 68/136 Mainline Track (cars): 40 Passing Track (cars): 26 Storage Track (cars): 8 Staging Track (cars): 26 Service Track (cars): 4 Connecting Track (cars): 32 Passing Sidings: 1 Passing Train Length (cars): 26/26/26 Staging Tracks: 3 Staging Train Length (cars): 10/9/7 Maximum Cars: 37 Cars Moved: 44 Trains: 4.9 Dispatching Threshold: 10 car trainsHO Alkali Central (12/95 MR) Room Area (sq ft): 96 Layout Area (sq ft): 32 (33%) Number Turnouts: 8 Total Track (ft/cars): 45/90 Mainline Track (cars): 38 Passing Track (cars): 0 Storage Track (cars): 14 Staging Track (cars): 18 Service Track (cars): 0 Connecting Track (cars): 20 Passing Sidings: 0 Passing Train Length (cars): 0/0/0 Staging Tracks: 2 Staging Train Length (cars): 10/9/8 Maximum Cars: 25 Cars Moved: 22 Trains: 2.4 Dispatching Threshold: 1 car trains
HO Soo Red Wing Division (12/94 MR)
HO Alkali Central (12/95 MR)
And he gave a rough analysis of these two layouts as following:
jfugate web page The most notable problem with this design is the staging train lengths are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the passing train lengths. Considerable switching will be necessary to get trains into and out of staging --which could be good or bad, depending on how much you enjoy switching as opposed to mainline running. <...> This layout has a serious problem: no passing sidings. Notice the dispatching threshold stat tells us immediately that ANY cars on the main OWN the main, period. Who needs a dispatcher when you can run only one train at a time? This is definitely a beginner's layout and not one for anyone interested in advancing into realistic multitrain operation. The Soo Red Wing Division is a much better layout for a beginner with future growth in mind since its operation potential is far greater.
The most notable problem with this design is the staging train lengths are SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than the passing train lengths. Considerable switching will be necessary to get trains into and out of staging --which could be good or bad, depending on how much you enjoy switching as opposed to mainline running.
<...>
This layout has a serious problem: no passing sidings. Notice the dispatching threshold stat tells us immediately that ANY cars on the main OWN the main, period. Who needs a dispatcher when you can run only one train at a time? This is definitely a beginner's layout and not one for anyone interested in advancing into realistic multitrain operation.
The Soo Red Wing Division is a much better layout for a beginner with future growth in mind since its operation potential is far greater.
Anyways - there are many ways of describing layouts. Just comparing what Fugate called "room size" above is not necessarily the most meaningful descriptor.
Now - before you comment on this or try to point out weaknesses in the Fugate approach, read through this thread (http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/101636/1182131.aspx) from the last time this was discussed :-)
I would bet that most fit into a spare bedroom and probably have to share the space with somthing like the familly computer, which equates to a fairly small layout. I am lucky in that I have a 17 foot by 15 foot room that is occupied by only the railroad. Even that size is a huge amount of work to build and more expensive than I can really afford. I'm not sure I would want something bigger.
Yes other than the venerable 4X8 I would have to agree with the less than 100 square foot crowd.( I guess that's the saying same thing ) Though I might go with an emphasis on less a lot less say between oh maybe 32 and 50ish? I also agree with the misleading dimensional way of measuring a layout. A 4X8 sheet can be cut in to four 1ft wide strips and made into a multitude of shapes, the least of which is a square making the 4X8 now measure 8X10. But I guess that sounds better than 32 square feet.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
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Sir Madog Really GREAT layouts can be seen here:http://www.carendt.com/What is size? Nothing!
Really GREAT layouts can be seen here:
http://www.carendt.com/
What is size? Nothing!
You are absolutely correct.
Yes, perhaps I should have said "most common".
I did a search of this forum and while many members mentioned the size of their layout there was no correlation of data.
I agree that most home layouts are probably a 4' x 8' or started life as a 4' x 8' and are now some combination utilizing 4' x 8' sheets as the base.
My layout is currently 12' x 8' overall. It will eventually have a second level added sometime in the future. I could also expand into the adjacent room, a utility room, and build a large yard to feed the layout.
Mine is an around the walls in a 12 x 12 space.
I think average is not the correct number. Average will be skewed by those who do own super size layouts. Average also implies in most people's minds the normal distribution, when it may not be. I recall some years ago seeing an article in MR about the average and even then it was a skewed distribution. Furthermore, is an around the walls shelf in a 10x10 room a 100 square foot or a 64 square foot layout?
I'd bet that the most common size for a layout is 4 feet by 8 feet. So, I guess owners of 4by8s are the most typical of model railroaders. I'd also bet there are more layouts larger than layouts smaller than 4by8, I'd say the average is larger.
Mark
This is one of those, "Am i conforming with the average...?" questions. If you aren't, is your layout larger , or smaller ? Just as informative and meaningful as, "How tall is the average woman?" Is your personal squeeze an amazon, a petite elite or a typical middle-everything? And, who (beside you) really cares ?
When all the space I could claim was 18 square feet, that's the size I built. When I was limited to two walls of a 144 square foot spare room, I ended up with 36 square feet. Now that I have 320 square feet of buildable space I will (eventually) have about 160 square feet of layout and an equal floor area of aisleways. Through all of this, I was aware of layouts the size of a briefcase and other layouts that filled warehouses. I can only hope that all of those layouts, regardless of size, gave their owners the same feeling of satisfaction that mine have given me.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
It also depends a little bit on how you define layout size. Mine, for instance, sits in a space that measures 10' x 15', or 150 square feet, but since it's two peninsulas with a 5' run between them, the actual space occupied by tracks and scenery is somwhat less than that, more like 92 square feet (counting squares on the rough layout drawing).
It's not REALLY a walkaround (it's designed to be seen from inside the "C" shape), you can go behind the long short sides if necessary to fix a derailment or whatever. But what about the "around the room" guys. Is a 3' wide ATR layout in a 10x10 room 100 square feet or 84 square feet (the approximate area taken up by the layout).
It's likely about bragging rights. Telling people I have a 10x15 layout probably sounds more impressive than saying "A C-shaped layout 15 feet long, with two 10 feet long and six feet wide peninsulas at the ends." It also avoids that "glazed over" look that non-railroaders get when you start describing your layout.
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As I recall, the last time I saw figures, the average would be a less than spare bedroom - 10x10ft.
Given the enduring popularity of the 4x8 seet of plywood, I would say that a 4x8 followed by a 5x10 and 5x12 covers half the layouts. With 2 sheets of plywood you can have a 5'4" x 12' layout by cutting each sheet at 5'4" and arranging the pieces in a rectangle.
One of the problems of getting the numbers is that you're most likely to miss the more casual folks who tend to have smaller layouts.
Actually, there was a thread on layout size for the MRP 2009 in this forum, but I cannot recall seing the results. It is my guess that the average layout stays under 100 sqft. We tend to believe it to be much bigger, given the nice stories we see in MR on those beautiful, basement filling layouts.
It´d be nice to know the reality...
Probably not, but this forum has. Unfortunately searching of old posts is problematic. Perhaps someone has a link handy.
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Has model railroader ever polled its forum readers to determine what is the average size of the home layout?