Hello all,
I am in the process of redesigning my layout and am thinking about putting in either a duckunder or a lift out bridge. My question is to those that have either. Are they a pain to get through for your guests viewing the layout or troublesome because of climate changes? The room is only 10x15 so space is a problem with trying to fit a double line dogbone layout in. I have looked through the layouts and have not seen much that would work without a duckunder. Any thoughts would be welcome, pro or con.
Thanks, Joe
I have one duckunder that is 2 feet wide. I keep an old roller office chair set to it's lowest height under the benchwork for the benefit of those who have trouble stooping under the 44 inch clearance. (myself uncluded on bad days) Just shove it back under there when you are done.
I have seen some nice lift out sections but have never attempted one myself. Biggest drawback i can see is you will limit your layout width to about 2 tracks where the bridge goes.
It goes without saying that you would want the track circuit interlocked to the bridge to keep the trains from doing a peter pan if you forget to close it.
Expansion and contraction should not be much of a problem once your benchwork has "seasoned" but I would probably make the bridge section out of aluminum channel or something similar. Wooden construction would probably be ok if it was painted or sealed if you are worried about dimensional stability in times of extra high or low humidity.
grizlump
Joe,
Forgive me if you have already seen this. here is my solution to the duckunder problem:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/127351.aspx?PageIndex=1
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Try to avoid a duckunder and go for a lift out section instead, even if that means a draw back in the trck arrangement. I am 6ยด5" tall and at the age of 53, getting on "me knees" to crawl into my layout room is out of question! All people I know that had duckunders have rebuilt them into lift-outs...
There are four possibilities:
My last layout would have had a bascule bridge across the access to the main operating aisle - I consider any duckunder with less than 70 inch clearance to be cruel and unusual punishment, and the track level would have been 42 inches. Happily for all concerned, I never had to build it.
All of my benchwork is steel, and the bridge would have been framed with steel stud material. Desert heat and total lack of humidity does weird things to forest products, but doesn't have any significant effect on steel.
There have been several threads on this subject, but I haven't tried to search them out. Perhaps a little time exploring the site would pay dividends.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Thanks for the reply's guys.
I really like the swing gate but I could see where there could be problems later on. I am from Arizona also and I understand about dry heat and wood. That was one of my concerns.
The bascule bridge idea sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that as a possibility.
You have confirmed what I thought about duckunders and will steer clear of that route.
The gymnast thing was funny because I used to be one, but now I am 55 and paying the price for all that flexability that I used to have.
Thanks again, Joe
I'm 44 y/o, 5'10" and have no real problems that inhibat the use of my duck under. The duckunder is 45" at the lowest point and 18" wide. I am a lone wolf so others are not a major problem. I have used the chair method just fine for the ocassional guest who would have a problem.
A couple of things that made me go with the duckunder for my pit layout - I have a junction and a switch for a bypass that rest on the duckunder. Also, I have hidden trackage in this area too. It would have been way to hard to balance all of this any other way.
Of course I think I am not the norm with liking my duckunder (and hidden trackage too). With my layout life expectancey less than 10 years it works for me. You'll have to look at all aspects of what will work for you.
I would also look at Charlie Comstocks really nice swing gatehttp://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/bcsj3/construct070922/constr_070922_13.htm
ratled
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
The duckunder on my last layout presented no problems. Track height was 58". For the duckunder I used 2 piieces of 3/4" plywood laminated together. This gave an underside clearance of 56". I'm 5'11" and found this no problem to get under.
Enjoy
Paul
I've used duckunders and wouldn't use them again, in fact I re-did my last layout considerably just to remove duckunders. A lift-out isn't so bad because when you're working the layout and moving around, you can just remove the lift-out and set it aside.
I don't see any particular advantage of a lift-out or swinging section over a duck/crawl under during operating sessions when the lift/swing section is unlikely to be moved unless one unwisely constructs it with a brace blocking a duck/crawl move. (Stop everybody, Joe is going to/coming from the head.) The advantage is when one is working/constructing the layout since ducks/crawls can be avoided by keeping the section/gate open all the time. Regardless, my proposed layout has a duck/crawl-under as there is lots of trackage on all portions of the layout.
Mark
I have a swing gate; I'm too old for duck unders.
It's several years old and still works perfectly.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I have a drop-leaf. It works marginally well, but in any redesign, I would try to avoid having one again. It's used only to bring trains out of staging, so it doesn't get terribly heavy traffic during an ops session, but if something gets kinked, it makes the session a nightmare, since you can't bring new trains on or get rid of trains that have been circling for a while.
If you engineer it well, I don't think you'll have a problem long term, but I would definitely avoid a duck under.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Capt. Grimek I'll have a track arrangement that is: one 30" radius track at zero elevation (48") an adjacent track at 5.5" higher with 30" radius and finally another adjacent track 27" radius (actually a passing for the 5.5" higher track) that climbs to an 8" industrial yard only 2 ft. away/ all together on a duck under, lift out, lift bridge area. Do you think this is a possible track arrangement for anything other than duck under, guys? I'm concerned about keeping alignment with all of those curved tracks at 3 different levels. Thoughts? Thanks.
Are all 3 levels more or less one-above-the-other ? If so, you could consider a single swing-gate with a "shelf" for each level. The shelves can be made wide enough to incorporate the curves. This way, all 3 levels of track open/close at the same time.
This is what I have planned for my N-scale 2-deck around-the-room layout where I have 5 levels of track (1 on the lower deck; 1 on the upper deck; and 3 turns of a "no-lix" at a 2% grade) that need to swing open in order to access the aisle. Essentially, I plan to build a "partial door" with shelves for each level of track. For the grade of the "no-lix", I'll simply attach the shelves at the necessary 2% incline.
I have two basic ideas as to how to build it ...
OPTION A: I was thinking of using a single sheet of 1/2" MDF as the "door" to which the "shelves" are attached. To lighten the weight of the MDF, I would cut "windows" in the centre, being sure to leave a "guardrail" for each shelf. I would use a piano hinge for stability and strength.
OPTION B: Alternately, I could use 2 layers of 1/4" plywood separated by 1x4 lumber forming a sort of hollow-core door. The 1x4 lumber would form the "shelves" for the tracks (with some at an incline where necessary). Like in the MDF version above, the plywood would have "windows" cut (leaving a "guardrail" at each shelf). The advantage here, with the 2 layers of plywood, I'd have "guardrails" on both sides of the track. Again, I'd use a piano hinge. (The width of the 1x4 should be sufficient for double-tracks in N-scale giving me ample room for a single track.)
I have not figured out which method would be best. Things to consider :
I prefer a lift out:
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
joe27 Hello all, I am in the process of redesigning my layout and am thinking about putting in either a duckunder or a lift out bridge. My question is to those that have either. Are they a pain to get through for your guests viewing the layout or troublesome because of climate changes? The room is only 10x15 so space is a problem with trying to fit a double line dogbone layout in. I have looked through the layouts and have not seen much that would work without a duckunder. Any thoughts would be welcome, pro or con. Thanks, Joe
Joe
I have a 7.5ft x 10ft layout space so I do understand how much more/better layout can be had with a donut configuration. But a cautionary tale:
My Dad started a rather large donut configuration layout with a large yard attached on an extension in his late '60s. It was his dream layout. About the time he turned 75, he suffered some shoulder and back injuries which made it painful for him to duckunder. I offered to finish off the wiring for him, but he would have none of it. During the year and a half of recuperation, he gradually shifted to just completing and operating the yard so that he wouldn't have to duckunder to access his hobby. Eventually, it became too painful to get under the layout at all, and he restricted himself to building structures for the yard area. In another 2 years, he gave up the layout and hobby completely.
It has also been my observation that the more uncomfortable or hassle a layout is to work on or operate, the sooner it will be abandoned. It's a hobby, and we do not get paid for being uncomfortable or spending time doing "non-fun" activities. That's why small scale outdoor layouts and layouts that depend on multiple pop-up pits generally (there are always exceptions!) don't last more than a few years. Suspended, fold-up, and "portable" layouts that must be set up and taken down at the end of every work or operating session tend to suffer the same fate due to the hassle factor.
Based on the above, I would never have a layout with a duckunder. Even when young, a back or similar injury (can easily happen in sports to the healthy) can take the joy out of the layout for long enough to cause its eventual abandonment. A liftout or drop down or gate is only acceptable when it can normally be left in the open position. The only time the gate or gap should be closed is at the beginning of an operating session. And it should remain closed until the end of the operating session. IMHO, any liftout, gate, or bridge that has to be opened during normal operations is unacceptable. And even then, an ideal design will allow me to keep the gap open during switching operations; only continuous run ops requires the gap to be closed.
Layout construction and maintenance is my primary reason for the normally open rule. If the opening is normally closed, the continued opening/closing of the gap to bring materials and tools to the inside is too much hassle (IMHO).
A final thought: when trains start floor diving (or similar emergencies) on the far side of the liftout or gate, any liftout or gate automatically becomes a duck-under or leap-over. Family "emergencies" in another part of the house have the same end result - you duck under or leap over to get there fast.
Nevertheless, the siren song of a much better layout design keeps me trying to delude myself that a duckunder or liftout really won't be that bad. Kind of like when my kids get themselves in a not-so-good situation, they try to deceive me with the infamous words, "But Dad, it's really not that bad...." And then I instantly know it really is that bad.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
This is really slick, I would recommend that before a duckunder!
My last layout has a duckunder nad there are definitely drawbacks. When you are in a hurry you will ocasionally make a mistake and bump into the layout and it causes an earthquake on the layout and it hurts your head and or back. As I got older it became more of a nusanse. My new layout does not have a duckunder and I really appreciate it. I would recommend alternatives if at all possible. - Nevin
Well there sure has been a lot of discussion here. My thinking is that a duckunder is out of the picture. I was really impressed with Guy's gate or maybe even more impressed with his scratch built trestle with six hundred nuts and bolts! So now it is time to decide on gate or lift out. I like the gate because it looks nice but when open it it may not have enough swing room. A lift out may be a problem if I am going in and out a lot. At least I have time to think about it and you guys sure gave me a lot to think about.
Obviously, the higher the layout the easier for a duckunder. Don't forget about building the layout and scenicing and maintaining it as well. Everytime you enter the layout there is a duckunder.
Either way, I would think you would want to have as much hobby storage capacity within the doughnut as well as a small bench. Constantly leaving the layout space to retrieve materials will amplify any access issues you have.
Better yet ,if you're married, you may want to consider having a TV, fridge, chair, toilet, sink, and bed all within the confines of the doughnut, and have the exit lead directly into the garage.
- Douglas
Hi!
My previous HO layout (1993-2008) filled an 11x15 room. As soon as you opened the door, you "ducked under" a 4 foot wide, 3 1/2 foot deep part of the layout, so as to get into the center of the layout for operation. As the height of the duckunder was about 48 inches, it was relatively easy for most folks to navigate. Of course some folks - especially those wayyy out of shape - had a problem and most would not attempt it. So be it.
I am now building a replacement layout, and it will have essentially the same size duckunder. I'm 65, a lone wolf modeler, and if I can navigate thru it, then that is just fine.
Also have to add that folks can get a terrific view of the layout from the doorway, and one of the throttles is nearby for them to operate.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
chateauricher This is what I have planned for my N-scale 2-deck around-the-room layout where I have 5 levels of track (1 on the lower deck; 1 on the upper deck; and 3 turns of a "no-lix" at a 2% grade) that need to swing open in order to access the aisle. Essentially, I plan to build a "partial door" with shelves for each level of track. For the grade of the "no-lix", I'll simply attach the shelves at the necessary 2% incline.
Have you ever considered taking up Nuclear Physics . . . . . . . . . . or perhaps Rocket Science? Sounds a heckuva less complicated to me! People would be inclined to say "You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to build a layout like that but it sure as heck helped!"
I once had a duck under my layout . . . . . . . . . . anyway it wasn't really a duck but rather a goose . . . . . . . . . . I didn't know the difference! Anyway this beast would get to thrashing around and get water all over the floor so I finally had to get rid of it. I will say this much, however: those powerful wings sure kept the cats in control!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet