ok. i have an unfinished basement to build my layout. what recommendations would you folks make to finish the basement for a model railroad? this will be a dedicated room for the trains. yes, my dreams have come true and i pinch myself at times. ha ha ha
# of electrical outlets, ceiling light fixtures, ventilation (for smokers), or anything else that comes to mind......
what mistakes would you avoid if you had the chance to do it all over again.
The first thing I would do is run, not walk, to your local building codes enforcers and find out what THEY require:
Things you will probably want:
A lot of the things you've asked about are layout design specific. Ceiling lights should be located above the aisleways, but first you have to have a pretty good idea of where the aisleways are going to be. Likewise, the best place for 'convenience' outlets is on the fascia - once you build it. Having at least a rough idea of what will be going into your layout space will make electrical design a whole lot easier.
If you don't smoke, I would recommend making the layout room a No Smoking space. Tobacco smoke doesn't do a thing for track cleanliness or model electronics, never mind human physiology. If you are a smoker, determine where you are most likely to smoke in the room and install something like a stove hood at each spot, with positive (fan driven) ventilation to the outside. Your asthmatic guests will bless your thoughtfulness.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I started with a finished layout room, but here are a few suggestions anyway:
Be aware of any previous flooding or leakage conditions. Guard against them. Seal the walls, and maybe provide for an automatic sump pump if you have constant seepage or dampness. Build shelves at least a foot above the floor so you don't end up storing things directly on the floor.
I like dimmers for my lights. It lets me have lots of light for working on the layout or photography, medium light for operations, and near-darkness for night running. Be aware that those energy-efficient compact fluorescent bulbs don't work well on dimmers, unless you get special, more expensive ones.
Give yourself lots of outlets. They're cheap. Your trains won't use a lot of power by themselves, but you'll want convenient plugs for tools, lights and other stuff while building the benchwork and layout.
Ventilation is a good idea. If you feel that smokers "require" ventilation, then you should ask them not to smoke in the train room. It's OK. Most smokers are pretty understanding these days.
Think about your flooring. Bare concrete is terrible. It's hard on the feet, and on the knees when you're down below doing wire. It also constantly scrapes off and produces dust. At a minimum, you should seal it with paint. A piece of linoleum to cover the concrete would greatly improve things. Get a light color and see how much brighter the room gets, too. Again, though, be aware of dampness. Only a completely dry basement should ever get carpet.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
All great suggestions from the previous posts. I'd also recommend, if you haven't done it already, is to acquire a couple good layout planning books. Tony Koester's book is one of the best I've seen in terms of sequencing the decisions you'll need to make along your journey. I've thumbed this book pretty well, and I keep coming back to it.
I think one of the posts mentioned electrical considerations should be one of the first things you do. Don't underestimate how many outlets you'll need. When I wired my basement, I put an outlet every 10 feet. Maybe overkill, but if you don't do it, the one you'll need is always just out of reach...
Good Luck!
Bob O.
As most of the room considerations have been addressed - perhaps a little more on ceiling & layout lighting can be helpful...
tomikawaTTCeiling lights should be located above the aisleways, but first you have to have a pretty good idea of where the aisleways are going to be. Likewise, the best place for 'convenience' outlets is on the fascia - once you build it. Having at least a rough idea of what will be going into your layout space will make electrical design a whole lot easier.
Ceiling lights should be located above the aisleways, but first you have to have a pretty good idea of where the aisleways are going to be. Likewise, the best place for 'convenience' outlets is on the fascia - once you build it. Having at least a rough idea of what will be going into your layout space will make electrical design a whole lot easier.
Ceiling electrical is possibly the most overlooked pre-benchwork room design factor.
You might consider some valance-type dropdown for the aisleways lighting with appropriate dimmers as is the case for 2/3 of the room ceiling for lighting my CR&T upper level with the lighting more directed at that upper level instead of the rest of the room.
"Under kitchen cabinet lighting" on dimmers will be used to light the CR&T lower layout level. We've used this lighting recently on our kitchen cabinets, and the amount of light with very little heat is remarkable. Thus, the lower level will receive some light from the directed lighting of the upper level, but must also receive its own specific lighting.
The remaining 1/3 of the train room's ceiling will have more traditional lighting.
Aisleway locations and corresponding ceiling lighting is more important than we may think to eliminate those unnatural shadows big people can make upon the world of the model railroad's little people. Think of it as how a museum would light a diorama for the right uninterrupted lighting.
The model railroad layout plan will have a great bearing upon what you will do with the location of ceiling tile and ceiling lighting.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
In a way, I was fortunate in having to build my garage loft, with an inside stairway. Do you have a stairway to the basement, such that you will enter within the layout? Does "dedicated" imply that you have no other utilities to consider ? My loft has an unobstructed view of the entire layout. So, I constructed a large mountain to make it such that one must move down the aisles to view certain structures,(such as my rather massive Ashlan Iron & Steel complex.) Are the walls of your basement constructed of cement blocks? I highly recommend that you frame the interior with either studs and sheet rock, (or Luan). My wooden loft had uninsulated studs and ceiling stringers, so I insulated walls and ceiling, and then installed 10 double turbe fluorescent lights for illumination. In some ways, I regret not having cannister lighting, that can be dimmed. Inner valence lighting, is also a good idea for even lighting of the layout. I, personally, do not go for the aisle lighting idea, since it is the layout that should be illuminated. Being a loft, I was able to install outlets on my finished benchwork, with wires coming through the floor. With concrete walls and floor, you should run wires around the room, (through studs, if possible). and then branch out to fascia outlets on the completed benchwork. If you are going DCC, the main bus wires can be routed through holes in the benchwork., and divided into 4-5 Power Districts, (with toggle switches to shut off individual districts.) I have a wooden floor and plan to install carpet strips in areas where one must "crawl-under" to access holes. Incidentally, I constructed a lay-down carpeted roller device for making under layout access for wiring and repairs more comfortable. With over 100 switches to control, I made my four Power Districts into Switch Control districts, as well. Because of the complexity of the layout trackage, I drew scale pictures of each section with numbered switches related to the numbered double probe switch controls. Note photo."Nuff said", Bob Hahn
Click on the photo to enlarge it. Then, click sequentially on the upper right photos, to view photos of my layout.
When it came to the electrical part of my layout, I had an extra breaker wired into my electrical service panel and wired to a centralized location under my layout (right beside the main control panel). Besides being able to shut all power to the layout from the service panel, I wired in a switch at the control panel that also kills all power to the layout (yes, I am an electrician by trade). I also wired extra receptacles around the layout.
I had a buddy that was replacing the carpet in his home. He GAVE me the old carpet and pad. It's been a real feet, ankle and knees saver!! I intend to replace it eventually with those waffled rubber floor mats (although it's kinda pricey).
I bought one of those roll-around carts from Wal-Mart, and attached a power strip to it. I also replaced the light duty casters that came with it with 4 of the heavier duty swivel casters. It came with 2 swivel and 2 fixed. When I want to work on a particular part of the layout, I roll the cart to it. This holds ALL of my tools while I'm working on the layout. I used to have tools, parts, etc. laying on the layout. What a pain!! The cart is also low enough (my layout height is at 44") to fit UNDER the layout. This comes in real handy when you need to solder, wire, etc. under the layout. I also bought one of those raised creepers from Micro Mark. It's really saved on the neck! I only carpeted the aisles for this reason. The creeper rolls much easier on concrete. I also attached a hook to the cart to hold a pair of goggles.
NEVER WORK OVER YOUR HEAD WITHOUT EYE PROTECTION!! And always wear eye protection whenever using tools.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
A good, brand name sump pump with battery back up system, seal the concrete walls and floors, make sure to check fro permits, you will want to build a wall around the basement walls, and check codes. I know a few years ago there were some codes that said new construction had to have metal wall studs. Then I'd go ahead and carpet an area for a lounge, build a nice layout area floor of weather sealed outdoor wood deck lumber, the quality stuff, make friends with someone that has wood working saws and buy him a few beers so he can make it all tongue-and-groove, stain it all a nice lighter wood-colored walnut stain, build the framing and stain any visible framing a complementary medium wood-colored oak stain, drop ceiling, above-head layout valance made of cabinetry type wood and stain it all a nice dark wood-colored cherry stain, use the 5K type lights that I see the big leagures using to simulate daylight very accurately and as mentioned wire it all to seperate dimmer switchets, that way one end of the layout can be dusk and the other end can be night time (good idea ey ) and, just for poops and laughs, a close circuit tv system set up with security type cameras, a tv, and one of those set ups that automatically flips between cameras so anyone "off-duty" in the crew lounge can also tune in and watch the "on-duty" action. It's in a basement so I would forgo the prohibited smoking rule, oh and don't forget a drink bar with a mini fridge chock full of microbrews, although I also suggest having a rule about drinking and operating. I may like beer but I also like to keep my trains in one piece.
Wazzzyi have an unfinished basement to build my layout. what recommendations would you folks make to finish the basement for a model railroad?
Make room for storage, work area, crew lounge w/lavatory (even if you are the whole crew).
When you get to layout benchwork - I would not use drywall screws again.
One other thing I just thought of, when you build the wall before it gets put to the basement wall put up a vapor barier ont he portion of the wood wall that will be up against the concrete wall. It will help with moisture and give one more layer or protection between the cold concrete basement wall (cold winter climates), and moistiness from rainy spring climates, and nice straight 2x4's holding the wall together. I haven't had the chance to really deal with this stuff so I'm afraid I can't offer up much more than that. But if you're redoing a roof call me up. And I don't mean just re-shingling either, I'm talking from the start of putting the first rafters in place to the end of aiming the last gutter spout so it doesn't run water towards the house. Before you build the walls though I would check or have a professional check the basement walls for cracks, chunks missing, and any bowing. Of course, if the basement walls are bowing real bad you would notice from either looking at them or watching the plates slide off the dinning room table thats located in the room over bowing wall section. Now that's something a litte scary walking onto with out warning, but then again so is sitting in a seat right next to completely rotted out portion of the floor pan in a 36 year old car going down the highway at 60. Friggen Jimmy. And worse yet he never even lemme drive that Biscane, but I also didn't know how to drive a 3 on the tree otherwise I'm sure he would have.
I digress, make sure to check the basement out for damage and as said before any other existing problems. Concrete is a very tricky thing. A concrete basement can leak with a little rain yet the Hoover *** has no problems (yes I realize the Hoover *** is like 1/2 mile thick at the base).
thanks for the input folks.
the basement is on the ground level and has a door to the backyard. the isolated train room has no utilities, stairs or other issues to deal with (thankfully). 2 of the walls are poured concrete, 1 is the exterior wall and the last is a non-weight bearing wall. the door to the room is in a corner and could swing either way. i will be putting up a vapor barrier, stud the walls, insulate and sheetrock. i do plan on installing ceiling lights prior to building the benchwork. the flooring is still to be determined, but fake hardwood flooring with carpet strips along the walkways seems to be the logical option with my budget.
i agree with proper permits and will aquire them prior to begining this project. a separate power junction box is a great idea for quick diagnosis of power issues (better than humping upstairs to the garage to find the blown circuit).
its gonna cost a fair penny just to ge the room ready for the trains; i plan on doing most of the work myself with the assistance of a professional electrician. i know the preparation will pay for itself in the long run.
thanks again for your support and ideas. keep 'em coming.
One thing I did was paint the walls with a couple of coats of water sealing paint. First I used white, when doing the second coat I figured approximately where I would put the lower level of the layout and painted it blue above that. (The sealing paint I used comes in white, light blue, yellow and maybe green?) That kinda gave me a feel for how it would look down the road.
I chose to put up John Sterling shelves, screwed directly into the concrete blocks, rather than "finishing" the walls with studs and plywood or sheetrock. That was easy to do and allowed me to get a shelf layout going pretty quickly, plus made it easy to adjust the heights thru trial and error to see how high I wanted each level. Plus it gives me room below the layout for storage shelves, and above too - I'm using a shelf above the top deck for attaching florescent lights to.
One thing is you may want to check with your city or county is how this may affect your home value and property taxes. I've heard stories of guys having to "un-finish" their basement because their property taxes went up significantly after an inspector found that the basement had been finished. A finished basement is considered more valuable than an unfinished one, so finishing the basement may cause the value of the property to go up.
MILW-RODROne other thing I just thought of, when you build the wall before it gets put to the basement wall put up a vapor barier ont he portion of the wood wall that will be up against the concrete wall.
On the contrary, the vapor barrier should go on the room side of the studs, especially if you are going to insulate. Vapor pressure is from the warm side to the "cold side;" therefore, moisture passes from your train room towards the foundation wall. A vapor barrier next to or on the foundation wall can trap moisture in the wall and damage the masonry; also, it can trap-in the new insulation and studs-moisture vapor coming from the room. Better to install the studs with an air space between them and the masonry wall (secure studs to a floor sill and a plate secured to the overhead floor joists). If foundation wall dampness is a problem now, deal with it first and separately.
Dante
A filter to consider. They have a bigger one, but it's $2k.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91393
I agree with Dante concerning the vapor barrier. When I finished my train room I had the contractor who built my house do the rough framing of the perimeter wall in the room. He said since most poured concrete basement walls are not perfectly straight that he normally leaves a small space between the walls studs and the concrete wall so he can get the framed wall straight. When I insulated the framed walls that are against the concrete basement walls, I used rolled fiberglass insulation that has it's own vapor barrier. I didn't install an additional plastic vapor barrier before the walls I had drywall installed. I should say that my basement is climate controlled, so high humidity is not a problem.
Another item that might be considered is emergency lighting for the room. There is an article in the June 2009 issue of Model Railroader about the installation of this type of lighting. I'm going to install this type of system in my train room once I start operating and have guests in the room. Since my room has no source of outside light, it's completely dark when the door is closed and I turn off the lights.
Bob
Emergency lighting is a good feature. I have had a number of power outages due to weather that have left me gropeing for the stairs in my basement layout. One of the best things, I had my contractor put all ceiling lights and wall outlets controlled from a panel of switches so that I can kill power to the entire train room as I exit. You don't have to worry about things you forgot to unplug like the soldering iron. The wall outlets around the room are on two circuits so that I can leave one circuit live for my DCC components. I used conventional flourescent ceiling lights in the drop ceiling. Excellent for power consumption and lighting, however, if I were doing it over I would use lights that could be controlled from a dimmer switch so that I could ramp the lighting down to simulate night operation. One last thought when I bought my house the basement is below ground level and the walls were concrete block rather than solid concrete and it was one damp mess due to leakage from the outside from a good rainfall. A good concrete waterproof paint completely resolved this problem. If you drill into concrete block for any layout supports make sure you seal in the anchor or you create a leak path.
After you complete your layout plan if you want backdrop scenery then you should start thinking about how you will achieve this. After you're layout is in place it's much more difficult to put in.
Joe
A vapor barrier in a stud wall against a poured concrete or block basement wall is an invitation for mold and rot. The link noted by MECman is good and the message is clear: no vapor barier (unless you like mold). If you still feel you need some sort of vapor barrier, consider building the stud wall 3/4" away from the concrete and foaming the wall and behind the studs with closed cell foam insulation. Use a pressure treated sill where the stud wall is in contact with the floor. However, if the concrete wall is damp or wet, it may get nasty between the foam and concrete. Two coats of a cementicious waterproof coating like Thoroseal is a good idea over any conctete or block wall before you start, but it will not seal cracks or leaks. -WCB
bbadger consider building the stud wall 3/4" away from the concrete and foaming the wall and behind the studs with closed cell foam insulation
There goes your air space, and if the sprayed foam shrinks a little, as it well might, you have created tiny spaces not large enough for air circulation but small enough to trap moisture. Put the vapor barrier on the room side of the stud wall as I suggested previously (and forget the foam).
Two things are important- a LOT of light and a LOT of available electricity. I have receptacles every 4 feet, and it was a good idea- glad I did it. Imagine what you think you need for lights and double it. That is one thing I wish that I had done. Now I am going back and adding track lighting.
Mike
http://rail.habersack.com
Mike Habersack http://rail. habersack. com
Maryland - the land of pleasant living...
I painted the over head floor joists and subfloor a gloss white, then installed single tube flourescent figures above a tanslucent panel drop ceiling. Gives a farely uniform ceiling. I also used "warm white" tubes.
If the room is dry. Start building. Put a couple of cabinets in to store your engines and rolling stock. I have a basic basement that is dry and has a vent from the forced air system. Works fine for me and is cleaner than most clubs I've seen.
The room doesn't have to be like a hospital nursery to run trains. I would just have fun and get started.
Springfield PA
thanks for the thoughts.
i will finish the basement before any other planning is initiated. i have the rest of my life to finish the layout, but i want a safe, dry well planned train room.
i will post pics when the basement is ready for trains.
thanks again
I don't know how big your space is, but I would use multiple electrical circuits dedicated to the train room. I would have at least 1 for general room lighting, 1 for layout lighting and 1 for layout power. Depending on your size, you may need more. It this is a big layout, you may want a 20 amp circuit for the layout power. Also, you're in the basement, use GFCI's.
Enjoy
Paul
Wazzzythanks for the input folks. the basement is on the ground level and has a door to the backyard. the isolated train room has no utilities, stairs or other issues to deal with (thankfully). 2 of the walls are poured concrete, 1 is the exterior wall and the last is a non-weight bearing wall. the door to the room is in a corner and could swing either way. i will be putting up a vapor barrier, stud the walls, insulate and sheetrock. i do plan on installing ceiling lights prior to building the benchwork. the flooring is still to be determined, but fake hardwood flooring with carpet strips along the walkways seems to be the logical option with my budget.
I insulated my cinder block wall basement with 2 inch foamboard over all four walls of the basement. The four foot wide foamboard when on vertically and we put in 2 by 2 inch wood "semi studs" inbetween each piece of foamboard. The "semi-studs" were ripped out of 2 by stock, so they were a true two inches to match the thickness of the foamboard. I used adhesive to stick the foamboard to the cinderblock and masonry screws set with a hammer-drill to hold the "semi-studs" to the cinder block. I did a lot of careful cutting and fitting to get the foam board to fit properly around joists and such. Then I put a layer of sheetrock on top of the foam board, running dry wall screws into the "semi-studs" to secure the drywall. Same amount of careful cutting and fitting of the drywall as the foam board.
The foamboard did good things for temperature control. The basement is much warmer in the winter and my furnace oil bills dropped noticably. Cinder block walls have a R value of 1, which is about as low as it gets. The 2 inch foamboard is something like R 18. The basement is above grade and it gets COLD up here in New Hampshire. The foamboard is pretty much air tight so I didn't bother with a vapor barrier.
Lighting. Think about working on the layout when brighter is better, and running trains where you want light on the track and scenery and a bit of clutter hiding gloom in the rest of the room. I'd do valences from the ceiling to match the edge of the layout and have lighting behind the valence to throw light on the track and scenery. I'd have a lot of big bright fluorescent ceiling fixtures for working on the layout. The new fluorescents, the ones with the skinny tubes, have better color rendition than the old style ones. Not perfect, but better. I'd turn some or all of the ceiling fluorescents off to get the proper ambience for running and showing off the layout.
Floors. A nice smooth, light colored, well laid, asphalt tile floor is the best for finding those pesky tiny parts after they leap off the layout onto the floor. They can hide for hours in carpet. On the other hand carpet is nice under foot and gives a warm cozy feel to any room. Take your pick.
Storage. You never have enough. Think about making/buying "Rollies", cabinets on casters that fit under the layout, but can be rolled out of the way for working on wiring underneath the layout. Rollies can hold extra rolling stock, unbuilt kits, all those junk cars and structures you save for kitbashing, paints and brushes, stripwood, styrene, sheet lead, tools, extra track, wire, turnouts, switch machines, all that stuff you want in the train room but don't want lying around on the scenery. Wal Mart has ready to go plastic Tupperware rollies for not-much-money. Make sure clearance under the layout is sufficient to accept them.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Believe it or not before you finish the layout room decide on your track plan first and here is why. Yes you absolutely want to finish the ceiling of course if it's with in your budget. A good drop or suspended ceiling with florescent lighting will make the world of difference in operation, working on your railroad and over all enjoyment of it. The reason for knowing the track plan first is where to place the track lighting. Some may say track lighting is a bit overboard but until I installed mine I would have agreed with them. It will enhance your layout somuch so you won't believe it. I recommend putting the track lighting on a seperate circuit so you don't need it on all the time like during construction. One thing to consider is what I have seen some layout builders do is fasten your bench work right into the 2x4 wall studs sort of a cantilever set up. Which works very nicely as you have no legs to bang into which results in a much cleaner look in my O/P
If your floor plan allows consider strongly making your layout a walk in type and avoid the use of duck unders. Unfortunately I have no choice do to location of hotwater heater and the furnace. If your handy enough and it's doable without going through any great pains consider concentrating all your utilities in one area, furnace, hot water heater, electrical service panel. This way your not building bump-outs and hidden closets or access panels so you can access them later.
Others have mentioned the obvious considerations for moinster problems, ventilation etc. I strongly suggest you do not allow smoking at all in your layout room being as most of what we use for scenery makes for good tender and none would want to see your dream litterly go up in smoke.
I personally would finish the walls with mold resistant draywall with a vapor barrier between it and the block work.and look into the precut subflooring sections for your isles which we not only carpeted but I aquired those rubber fatigue mats you see used in machine shops. You won't believe the difference they will make on your feet after you've been standing for a long time during construction or an operating session.
Your electrical requirements will depend on the complexity of your layout of course but I believe if you follow local building code requirements for the position of outlets and their location you should be fine. If you do find the need to use power strips please use the good one's with circuit breaker protection. When building my current layout a friend suggested something that I never thought of, placing a few dry chem fire extinguishers around the layout for just in case insurance not a bad idea.
One thing I would consider is the hight of your benchwork, now I know this doesn't sound like a room consideration but planning ahead pays off. A good friend and experienced playout builder suggested I set my bench work at 48" off the floor. This is for several reasons, viewing the trains is the obvious one but the not so obvious one is working under the layout during construction and after your all doen. I can actually lower my desk chair and scoot right under my layout and work on wiring etc. in a sitting position. Doesn't sound like a big deal until your back or your knees leave you all gimped up.
Sorry for the long drawn out post but the most important thing I need to know is how in the heck did you ever convince your wife to give up the entire basement? Good luck with your dream your gonna have a blast.
dstarrThe foamboard is pretty much air tight so I didn't bother with a vapor barrier.
If the foamboard is extruded, closed-cell polystyrene (e.g, Dow Styrofoam, O-C Foamular) or urethane, it is relatively impermeable to moisture vapor (not perfect but very good). However, the joints between those 2x2 studs and the foamboard-no matter how "tight"-are not impermeable at all; a vapor-barrier is still desirable over the studs and insulation (on the "warm" or room side under the drywall.