foam insulation question

[fwright]

galad

Since I am going this route do you think I can use a slightly cheaper plywood?  obvisouly not the super cheap-o stuff but something in the middle.

Sorry if this is lsightly off topic but another worry i have for my benchwork is my kids knocking into the table ( or again the most likley scenario my clusmsey self walking into it).  To prevent big shocks knocking track loose I will most likely secure it against the wall, does anyone have some tips or suggestions on how to secure it?

I would be inclined to use a smooth surface plywood - something like Luaun.  The extra strength of the plywood-foam combination comes from the success of the lamination.  A rough finish 1/4" plywood panel just doesn't glue as well to the foam - unless you use an expanding glue, which causes other problems like clamping and cleanup.

When I built a 3 rail O framed 4x8 for myself and the kids, I put 2 diagonal braces that reached half way to the floor on each leg - one along the length of the frame and one along the width.  I was awestruck at how sturdy those braces made the layout.  Although I could shove the entire layout, I couldn't make it rack or bend or any action which would cause damage except the earthquake derailments of the whole layout being moved.  Brace the legs with 45 degree angle braces in both directions (I used 1x2 for the braces) and no damage will be done other than trains being knocked off the track by a blow to the table.

If you absolutely need to prevent layout movement, I would use a 90 degree angle metal bracket and screw the legs to the floor.  If you have a non-shelf layout mounted to the wall, there will be times when you will want to pull it away from the wall.  The floor attachment points will be easier to remove and reinstall if the need arises.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

[TheK4Kid]

 galad,

 If it were myself, I'd use a very good bracing-cross slats or whatever and very securely attach the 1/4 inch plywood to it, but I'd use 2 inch thick foamboard instead of 1 inch, and you'll be much less likely to experience problems from any warping or expansion and contraction of the plywood
Properly braced up underneath, you may be okay.

Another reason I chose foam board only without plywood underneath is for just this reason, plus weight savings if I ever move it.
My basement is very dry, and the only wood is in the framework, and not enough to cause problems
with 2 iinch thick foam.
Foamboard isn't susceptible to expansion and contractiio due to moisture or small temperature changes.
So far( almost two years), I have had no track joint problems, or binding,buckling, kinking, etc that many plywood based systems have.

TheK4Kid

[galad]

 

fwright

.....I am starting my next layout, almost a 4x6 ft test bed layout.  I am using 2" foam on top of 1/4" plywood.  The plywood is there because I'm clumsy and fear I might fall against it as I experiment with a 60" layout height and other "features"..... 

This is exactly what I am worried about, that my kids (or most likely my clumsy self) will slip , or that I will forget its not a real table and put my weight on the foam and crash right through.  Thanks for the input I think I will go with 1/4" plywood for structural support with 1" on top.  Rather than cut into the foam I think I will get seperate pieces for hills etc. and glue that onto the foam.  This should keep foam debris in my work area and off the train table - although I plan on using the newspaper balls & plater cloth method for terrain.

Since I am going this route do you think I can use a slightly cheaper plywood?  obvisouly not the super cheap-o stuff but something in the middle.

Sorry if this is lsightly off topic but another worry i have for my benchwork is my kids knocking into the table ( or again the most likley scenario my clusmsey self walking into it).  To prevent big shocks knocking track loose I will most likely secure it against the wall, does anyone have some tips or suggestions on how to secure it?

[fwright]

As kid4kid says, either way works.

My 1st foam layout was an under-the-tree Christmas layout measuring almost 4ft x 5ft.  Since it was designed to have the tree on top while sitting on the floor, I glued a layer of 1/4" plywood on top of the 1.5" foam.  The plywood prevented the tree stand from denting or breaking the foam, and gave a surface with enough bit to hold the track screws of my Lionel tubular track.  I was very happy with the layout's weight and rigidity, and took it to work one year to set up on the peninsula desk in my cube.

I am starting my next layout, almost a 4x6 ft test bed layout.  I am using 2" foam on top of 1/4" plywood.  The plywood is there because I'm clumsy and fear I might fall against it as I experiment with a 60" layout height and other "features".  And it gives a solid surface underneath to mount things to.  I was also worried about cookie cutter construction without the plywood underlay.  But I have seen enough examples of pure foam cookie cutter in these forums that that is no longer a worry.  In places, I will likely cut through almost all the 2" for scenic features.  Finally, I feel a little more secure in storing the layout vertically, handling it to and from storage, and setting up on spare tables with the plywood underneath the foam.

I will have Homasote roadbed glued to the foam because some of the track will eventually be handlaid and because I need the quieting as I experiment with sound.

But these are my choices, and my reasons for plywood may not justify the extra weight and expense for you.  A second layer of 2" foam on the base would certainly help the low scenery - foam structural integrity issue, but generates extra layout thickness I don't want.

Fred W

[TheK4Kid]

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Galad, 

 I simply glued my foamboard to the framework.
I don't have any kids so I don't have that problem.
You can use plywood , then glue foamboard to it
I chose not to for the reason of keeping the table lightweight,
and I can move them easily, which I may do in a few years,
as I plan on building a newer trainroom off of my garage.
Plywood would add weight, and make movingthem up the staircase
much more difficult
My layout is HO scale, and for my purposes has enough strength.
No I can't crawl up onto my layout, but it is totally walkaround and
I can easily reach any point on the layout, so there is no need to crawl up onto it.
I cut a couple of 4x8 sheets of foamboard lengthwise to 2x8 dimension, and laid them
inside the framework alongside the 4x8 foamboards to make my tables 6 feet wide, allowing for
larger radiuses.
The legs are bolted on and have screw adjusters on the bottom of each leg  for leveling
the tables.
If I ever move it, it all comes apart quite easily, and can be easily picked up and moved,
then just as easily put back together.
Depending on your needs,  you can use plywood, then foam if you wish.
The foamboard gives you the advantage of carving out streams, rivers, etc, and you
can easily glue other foamboard onto it for scenery, -tunnels, hills, etc.
I planned mine out to fit my needs.
The pictures ( somehow I posted the same picture twice( I must be a little rusty on picture posting!),
will give you an idea of how I built mine..
I built 3 tables all the same dimensions, and they set end to end
I drilled out the cross slats for wiring.
The foamboard sets down the framework.
It's simply a matter of personal preferences

TheK4Kid

[galad]

Do you put the foamboard over top a piece of plywood or just put the foamboard on top of the framework itself?  The second option seems kind of flimsy and I am afraid my kids will end up smashing through it if I go with no playwood underneath.  I will of course tell them not to touch it without Daddy around but we all know how that works....

BTW I just priced the materials for my layout today, a 4x8 piece of insualtion 1" thick was $18.38 at Lowes.

I have used the foamboard beofre for other projects and I have always used spary adhesive to glue it together.

[TheK4Kid]

ratled

ratled

There's a product called "Power Grip" sold at Menards and elsewhere
Comes in a tube , just put it in a caulking gun.
Elmers white glue or wood glue for foam to foam takes forever to dry.

I use latex caulk for laying track
My layout tables are 6 feet wide by 8 feet long- 3 of them for a 6 by 24 foot layout table setup.
I used 2 inch by 4x8 pink sheets and custom made mine 6 feet wide.
This allowed me 34 inch radius two line mains on each end.

Everything bolts together, the tables bolt end to end, the legs bolt on.
Totally and easily moveable if I ever decide to move it.I have 1 x 3 cross slats that I glued my foam
to.
Strong, lightweight and the foam leaves open the option for streams and rivers to be made easily.
Mine is in my basement, and two guys can easily turn each 6 by 8 table on its side and take it up the stairway.
Basically my table frames are built like a bed with slats
1x4's on the outside, 1x3 cross slats.
Works great!
Mine sets 45 inches above the floor.
It's really a matter of personal prefences, but I have helped build big heavy plywood tables, and then had to help my buddy move to a new home later on.

Moving the layout involved cutting it up with a Saws All, and then major reapirs and refit was needed later on when reinstalling it.

Not so with mine

TheK4KId

[dante]

NYC-Big 4

At a NMRA show, I sat in on a seminar about building a layout with foam board.  They used the pink or blue as a base for strength and built in up with the white styrofoam.  Reason being they cut or formed the base roadbed with a serriform and shaped the terrain with a keyhole saw.  They indicated the white styrofoam was easier to shape with the serriform and did not create fine dust particles versus using the blue or pink for everything.  There was alot of little balls to clean up, but maybe better than inhaling the dust.

 

 

Once again, folks, just so you don't ask for the wrong thing and suffer an unwelcome surprise:

"Styrofoam" is Dow's trade name for their extruded blue polystyrene,  Owens-Corning calls their pink extruded styrofoam "Foamular," I believe.  The white beadboard is NOT "Styrofoam" nor is it extruded (most people do not like to work with it, it seems).

Dante

[NYC-Big 4]

At a NMRA show, I sat in on a seminar about building a layout with foam board.  They used the pink or blue as a base for strength and built in up with the white styrofoam.  Reason being they cut or formed the base roadbed with a serriform and shaped the terrain with a keyhole saw.  They indicated the white styrofoam was easier to shape with the serriform and did not create fine dust particles versus using the blue or pink for everything.  There was alot of little balls to clean up, but maybe better than inhaling the dust.

[Doc in CT]

Standard Foamular 150 or the DOW equivalent is what you want.   If you cut the foam with anything that creates dust, you should take precautions.  The safety information is availble at the Owens Cornings website.  Easier to vacumn up the dust and particles as you go, rather than afterwards. 

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Bay Area Foam Update:

Pacific Supply (Oakland) has Dow Foam Square Edge ("Blue") in 2"x2'x8' sheets (yes, two inch by two foot by eight foot) at about $25 per sheet.
They said they have "plenty" in stock today & their number is [phone]

Owens-Corning Fomular 150 ("Pink"): While Home Depot in Concord told me there'd be a minimum order of 48 sheets for the 2"x4'x8' foam, I called HD in Martinez and the dude was unloading a massive shipment of 2", 1" and 1/4" sheets as we spoke.  I popped on over and got one 2"x4'x8' sheet for $23.  The problem was getting it in my car, so I, with an extreme forsight startlingly unusual for me, brought a utility knife, tapemeasure and a square edge, and cut it into 2'x4' sections right there in the parking lot.

Voila!

HD in Martinez:  [phone]

Let the foaming begin!

[cuyama]

As noted on my web page referenced earlier, Home Depot and Lowes stores listed as carrying the extruded foam in California almost never actually have it in stock. Often, they don't even know how to order it. Do not trust the dealer-finders without calling the specific store first and asking.

[mcfunkeymonkey]

I was going to start with 4 straight modules and 2 end modules, with each 2'x4'.
So, six 2'x4' pieces of 2" foam.

Eventually I want to get students involved, each building their own 2x4 module, so I don't know how much you have hanging around.

If it's listed at Home Depot, that's not too far away in Concord, and on the way to my LHS, so then I guess it's a question of in-stock-ness.

[ratled]

Both work so long as it's the extruded foam.  How much do you need, I might have enough left over if it's not too much

ratled

[rs2mike]

mcfunkeymonkey

Thanks, Ratled & Pops, for all yr help!

It is the pink stuff:

 

And on Byron's website he says either one works.
It's just that the product info says it has a "weather barrier" or something.
I didn't know if I just ignore that and carve / lay cork or what.

Carpenter's glue sounds good to me.
I can be a little patient (especially with a big doctor )

I was thinking of starting a modular n-scale railroad club at the high school I teach at, with 2x4 modules, so I thought the 2" foam on top (a la "beer line") would be a good way to go so people could scoop out scenery.

But if getting foam is super difficult, then I can work other ways.

No way I'm going to complain about the unavailability of foam insulation!  The cause of it (fab california weather) is something I can definately live with!

Thanks!
--Mark

mark see the weekend photo fun.  I  started it this week and it has my example of using the 2" foam as a base and then stacked to make my mountains.  You can also look up on you tube and see an 8 part series on how to carve the stuff and finish it off.

Mike

[Doc in CT]

 Foamular 150 is the the least expensive insulating sheathing from O-C.  They market a higher end product (Foamular 250) which has a higher compressive resistance.  These products do not have a facing material. The equivalent Dow product is STYROFOAM TG, which has the same structural properties as Foamular 250. (These products are technically "extruded polystyrene closed-cell foam panels".)

Foamular should be available in both square edge and Tongue-and-groove edge, square edge seems more useful. The boards can be scored and snapped, cut, or sawed with common tools.

Health caution: "Grinding, sawing or fabricating can produce dust particles which may be irritating to eyes, nose and throat. Avoid buildup of dusts. Certain conditions form explosive dust atmospheres that can be ignited. Ensure adequate ventilation."

[CascadeBob]

 Some of the thinner forms (usually 1" or less) of the extruded foam insulation boards have a thin plastic layer/sheet on the surface of the foam.  I don't kow if this is what they mean by a "weather barrier".  You should check the foam that you have for this plastic layer and, if it has it, peel it off.  There have been warnings in this forum about this plastic layer preventing good adhesion to the surface if the plastic layer is left in place.

Bob

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Thanks, Ratled & Pops, for all yr help!

It is the pink stuff:

 

And on Byron's website he says either one works.
It's just that the product info says it has a "weather barrier" or something.
I didn't know if I just ignore that and carve / lay cork or what.

Carpenter's glue sounds good to me.
I can be a little patient (especially with a big doctor )

I was thinking of starting a modular n-scale railroad club at the high school I teach at, with 2x4 modules, so I thought the 2" foam on top (a la "beer line") would be a good way to go so people could scoop out scenery.

But if getting foam is super difficult, then I can work other ways.

No way I'm going to complain about the unavailability of foam insulation!  The cause of it (fab california weather) is something I can definately live with!

Thanks!
--Mark

[popscustommodelrailroads]

The extruded foam you are looking for can be found in with the installation materials. Generally it is 4x 8 and comes in 1/2 in, 1 in, and 2 in. It is usually blue or pink. It should be at any home improvement store. You can find this locally, Lowes or Home Depot would be my first stop.

[ratled]

Without seeing a picture of it I'm gonna go with no, at least not in the Bay Area.  Is it pink - Owens Coring is pink.  Here's a link to Byron's website and he has thing on getting foam.

http://www.layoutvision.com/id44.html

I had to go to the Oakland site to get mine.  It was the Dow brand - blue.(look at my pictures)  I checked everywhere San Jose, Pleasanton etc.  the Oakland place was the only one who had it - I called before I went.  If I was to do it all over, I wouldn't go the foam route - too expensive.  But there was no way anyone could have talked me out of it back then - about 1.5 years ago. 

I tried caulk to glue it down and foam to foam but quickly switched to crapenter's glue - cheaper at $10/gallon and worked just as well but dried a little slower (24hrs).  1 gallon was enough for more than 12 sheets and I still have alot left over.  I also used that for the cork to foam.  Same reasons.  Doesn't destroy the foam after it dries in case you need to have a "do over". Cork is no good after though.  I did use caulk to put the track to the cork and will never do it any other way!

Hope this helps

ratled

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/ratled/Klamath%20Line/

[mcfunkeymonkey]

Home Depot has Owens-Corning F150 Foam Board insulation
2x48x96
composite strength: 15psi
extruded polystyrene
with weather resistant barrier
cost: $20

is this what i want? (is this what the mr staff used on the beer line?)
or is there a better product out there?
and do i need to do anything special to it before i caulk in down and lay track?
thanks for the advice!
--mark