mobilman44 Hi! IMHO, I would dump the sprayer and use an old small paintbrush to massage the glue mixture, or a baster or eyedropper. The sprayers CAN work, but for the most part they are more effort than they are worth. Just my thoughts - been there done that..... Mobilman44
Hi!
IMHO, I would dump the sprayer and use an old small paintbrush to massage the glue mixture, or a baster or eyedropper. The sprayers CAN work, but for the most part they are more effort than they are worth.
Just my thoughts - been there done that.....
Mobilman44
Right. I use a layer of brushed on glue over a painted base first. Then after applying the grass to that, I seal it with the spray glue.
I am extremely grateful for all the great tips and techniques. Judging by the end results as seen in the accompanying photos you can get some impressive looking scenery. I dreaded doing this part of the layout after my first failed effort but I have totally renewed enthusiasm for the project now. Thanks again everyone.
cheers, Stewart
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
To all of you:
For me, this has been an extremely productive thread--I've learned some new techniques that I think I'll be trying out as I work on my scenery this summer. So Mr. Beasely, Grampys, Dr. Wayne and others--thank you all. You've given me a lot of food for thought not only for what I'll be working on, but some new techniques to use in re-working some of the scenery that I'm not quite satisfied with.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
TomDiehl Tom White above glossed over one of the things I found about using a sprayer with glue mixtures, you need to rinse the glue out of the sprayer at the end of the session. His suggestion of spraying the glue mixture, then switching to a wetted water mixture is the same thing, if you use the same sprayer. This rinses the glue residue out of the mechanism and leaves a water and deteregent mix in the tube, as intended and designed by the manufacturer of the sprayer.
Tom White above glossed over one of the things I found about using a sprayer with glue mixtures, you need to rinse the glue out of the sprayer at the end of the session. His suggestion of spraying the glue mixture, then switching to a wetted water mixture is the same thing, if you use the same sprayer. This rinses the glue residue out of the mechanism and leaves a water and deteregent mix in the tube, as intended and designed by the manufacturer of the sprayer.
Tom:
You're right, I did 'gloss' that over a bit. What I do is use the same spray head for both the glue and the 'wet water' bottles. And the 'wet water' cleans the glue from the spray head so that when I'm ready to do more glue work, it's all ready to go.
Dr. Wayne:
That's an excellent technique and beautiful results. I'm going to have an area that is going to need some considerable rip-rap work as I rebuild my Buttes, and frankly I was wondering if my usual 'wet' technique would work. Your technique will certainly give me a more natural angle of repose as I add the layers of rock. Thanks for the tip--I really love your results!
twhiteThe main reason I apply the glue first, is that my terrain is quite mountainous, and applying ground cover on a dry surface usually results in most of it just reacting to gravity and heading for the lowest elevation, LOL!
The main reason I apply the glue first, is that my terrain is quite mountainous, and applying ground cover on a dry surface usually results in most of it just reacting to gravity and heading for the lowest elevation, LOL!
You're right about that, Tom. I do the same on steeper hillsides and even for the ballast shoulders where the roadbed is on a fill. I generally try to apply all of the basic ground cover in an area at the same time.
In the scenes below, I used a brush to apply white glue, undiluted, to the sides of the cork roadbed and the sides of the plaster "fill". After adding the rip-rap (crushed plaster) right into the brushed-on glue, I continues to add "rock", allowing it to find its own "angle of repose", until the profile looked right to me. I then dumped some finer material atop that, particularly near the top, then some medium ballast, followed by cinders, then the fine ballast that I used in this area. This was followed by multiple applications of ground foam in various colours, mostly along the lower edge of the fill. When everything looked right to me, I spray-saturated the area with wet water, followed by a very liberal application of thinned white glue. Some of these areas took over a week to dry, but everything is held in place firmly enough to allow contact with the soft brush attachment of my shop vac.
Wayne
Hi Stewart: Everyone has their own favorite method of building scenery. Mine is similiar to Mr. B's. I, too, use Structolite for a base. I paint it with thinned earth colored latex paint. Then I use straight Elmer's white glue, brushed onto the base. Then I sprinkle a wide variety of colors and textures of WS ground foam. Then a variety of poly fiber, foliage, and small sprigs of left over super tree armatures for bushes. Trees are a combination of Super Trees and bottle brush. I've been using hair spray as a fixative.
No sprays for me. I tried that, and it just made a mess. Now, I do my first application of "scenic cement" with a brush. "Scenic cement" is just white glue, thinned about 1 part glue to 3 parts water. I've got a gallon of cheap white glue, and I figure it will last me another 50 years at my present rate of consumption.) I mix my scenic cement in an old Elmers bottle with the orange applicator top.
I start with a surface covered with Gypsolite to get a rough base, and use a camouflage pattern applied with thin washes of cheap acrylic paint:
Like others, I sprinkle on the turf material after brushing on the glue. I usually pour a handful of turf into my left hand, and then apply it in pinches. I like to use several different shades and grades of turf, even over a small area, to avoid the "golf course" look. I prefer blotches of darker and lighter greens and browns, more the "my lawn" look.
Next, I add clumped flocking. The painted-on glue isn't going to hold this, so I first wet it with isopropyl alcohol, straight from the bottle, with a pipette. I could use watered-down alcohol, but the stuff is so cheap that it's not worth the effort, and the straight stuff works great. Finally, I dribble scenic cement on to the flocking from that Elmers bottle.
Like turf and flocking, I use a mixture of trees as well. The final scene has Envirotex used to turn that black hole into a small pond, and to moisten the ditch by the side of the tracks.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Dr. Wayne's technique is a very good one, as the photos show. The main reason I apply the glue first, is that my terrain is quite mountainous, and applying ground cover on a dry surface usually results in most of it just reacting to gravity and heading for the lowest elevation, LOL! But for rolling or flat country, applying the cover dry THEN saturating it, makes a lot of sense.
Actually, I have had good success with a WS spray bottle and diluted matte medium (Liquitex, diluted 1 part medium to 3 parts water w/ 2 drops of dish soap). The trick, as someone else here has said, is NOT to spray AT your ground cover, but OVER your ground cover, letting the drops fall on it. I use a piece of cereal box (any waxed cardboard will do) to control the overspray. Once your ground cover is wet, you can move close and pull the trigger gently to dribble the glue mixture on thickly. Sprinkle more ground cover to soak up any excess glue or to cover bare spots. I find at least two applications are generally necessary.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I'd suggest applying the ground foam, ballast, etc. first, while the area is still dry. This allows you to re-arrange stuff as required with a soft 1" brush. Layer it on as thick as required - I find that using one of those disposable paper cups makes it easy to distribute the foam where you want it. Simply squeeze it to form a spout, then tap it with your finger as you move it over the area. When everything is positioned to your satisfaction, fill your sprayer (use a good-quality one that will give you a fine mist) with tap water, then add a few drops of liquid dish detergent. As an alternative, some folks use a water/alcohol mixture (hopefully, they'll chime in with the proportions of the mix). Spray the entire area, aiming the sprayer upwards at first, so that the drops merely fall onto the loose material until it is partially dampened - this prevents the force of the sprayer from dislodging the loose material. Once it's been sufficently moistened, you should be able to spray it directly. Thoroughly wet all areas which you wish to glue in place - failure to do so will result in a poor bond. Once the area has been thoroughly soaked, use a plastic dropper bottle to apply a 50/50 mixture of white glue and water - a 40/60 or 60/40 mixtures works too, so don't sweat the proportions too much. If you're doing any amount of scenery, buy the white glue in a gallon jug, as it's much cheaper. I use hot water from the tap, as it seems to mix faster. You can also use matte medium in place of the white glue, although it's much more expensive, and works no better.
Here are a couple of photo illustrations:
The dry material, arranged as I want it, but still loose:
The same area after it's been wetted:
Applying the glue/water mixture - the drops spread easily as soon as they touch the wetted foam:
The area with the glue applied:
Depending on how thick the application of foam is, the area may take some time to dry. Despite the appearance of the area in the final picture above, once dried it looked exactly like the first picture - but was held firmly enough to withstand direct vacuuming.
Here are some "after" views, although none was taken specifically to show that area. In the first two, the new ground cover is in the lower right corner of the photo, while it's in the foreground (and partially out-of-focus) in the third shot:
The secret to getting a bond that's both strong and not visible when dry is in the proper pre-wetting of the area - this draws the glue mixture down where it's needed, rather than letting it lie on top.
Stewart:
Loathar's got a good suggestion (as usual!). After watching my WS Scenic Glue pump act like a hydraulic miner's cannon a few times, I did the same; thing, tried a cheap hairspray pump. Actually, I tried that by mistake. I'd bought the hairspray to use to attach flocking to homemade trees, and it worked so well, I tried it on ground cover. Worked pretty darned well. Then I thought: Hey, I've got all of this WS Scenic Glue sitting around not being used, how would the pump work with that?
Yup. Worked like a charm. Be sure to clean the pump with warm water after each use, and you might want to cover or mask off areas of the scenery that you don't really want covered, but the pump will lay a good cover of glue for your ground foam.
What I do, if it helps:
Spray the area with the glue, first. Sift on the ground cover. Re-spray, sift on a little more ground cover. Do this until you get the cover you're happy with. Generally speaking, it takes me about three or four applications for my particular type of scenery. Change over to 'wet' water (either a water/alcohol mix or water with a few drops of detergent, whichever works best for you) and saturate. Let dry (I usually give it about four hours or so) then start adding whatever brush or trees you're planning on. For the brush, I usually just repeat the process I started with the ground cover, especially if you're using foam 'clumps'.
Works for me. Here's a forest scene I did using the technique, if it helps at all:
But those WS pumps--uh, uh!
I hadn't thought of the hair spray bottle. Do you find it gives reasonable control over the area you are spraying? The piece I'm experimenting with is removable so not a problem but the rest will need to be done in place.
Thanks,
Stewart
The problem is probably the sprayer your using. I even bought the one from Woodland Scenics and it lasted about 5 minutes. Trigger sprayers don't work very well. The best sprayers I've found are the cheap $1 pump hair spray bottles. They are made to spray sticky liquids. You can even use the hair spray to hold down your turf. I use Mod Podge matte medium. I mix 1 part glue to 2-3 parts water with a touch of alcohol. Works really good.Make sure you run some warm water through the sprayer to clean it out after use.
Thanks Joe,
I like the idea of better control for sure. Once I finish scraping this off, I'll give it a try.
Stewart,
There's never time to do it right but, there's always time to do it over.
I've had the same bad experience that you have had. I've tried various ratios of glue to water, glue to water plus detergent and glue to water to isopropyl alcohol all with the same bad result. I've also tried Woodland Scenics spray glue with much the same result. Finally, no sprayer version gave decent results with any of the multitude of mixtures I tried. Also, spraying glue leaves a residue everywhere where you don't want it. My solution has been to spread a mixture of 2 parts glue plus 1 part each of water and 70% isopropyl alcohol with a fine bristle brush and then sprinkle on the foam or other material. It takes a little more time but I can get better control with this method.
Joe
Okay, so it's pretty clear I'm no artist. I really do want this layout to look good though. I'm freelancing an N scale layout on 3 X 6 feet. Happy with the track plan and the wiring went well. Now I'm trying for realistic looking hills. I have some great shapes but can't get the ground cover quite right. I have a small removable section that I'm experimenting on. I brushed on light tan latex paint over the plaster then sprinkled on a mixture of fine turf mix (Woodland scenics weeds and burnt grass). After a couple of days I was ready to try the next layer. I mixed white glue and water with a couple of drops of dish soap then put it in a spray bottle. The bottle sprayed a great mist with water but the glue came out in a stream like a hydraulic mining gun blasting the overburden into oblivion. Clearly there is a better technique. So the question is - would the glue have been too thin?, too thick?, cheap sprayer?, operator error?.
I'm pretty much game for any suggestion that will let me make credible hills.
Cheers, Stewart
(n scale because smaller is less expensive right?)LOL