Hello fellow railroaders:
Having grown up in the New York area I have always been a fan of the NYC railroad and have been fascinated with the 4 track Water Level Route along the Hudson River. I would like to model this area in N scale. I have space in a garage that has to share with a car. The space available to me is 10 by 24 feet. I have been considering various layouts including an "E" shape walk in versus a double deck style including a helix. Of couse I would like to maximize the mainline run. I have multiple books on the New York Central and have many ideas but do not know quite how to begin. The era I would like to model is the early to mid 1950's with all diesel equipment. I am most interested in "railfanning" passenger trains and commuter trains, but would also like to run an occassional freight and do a limited amount of switching, but I am not into complicated switching activities. I would like to have a loop to loop plan with staging at both ends and model a scalled down division point (Croton Harmon yard) in the middle for engine changes etc. The segment before the division point would be a 4 track mainline from New York City to Harmon (mostly for commuter action) and then from the division point it would be a 2 track mainline and include some Hudson River scenery and mountains. I guess my questions are: (1) does anyone know if somebody has attempted this and if such a layout or plan exists (2) would you recommend a double decker for optimal mainline run or try to keep it on 1 level (3) would you recommend that this be built one segment at a time with benchwork, track, wiring and scenery completed before moving on to the next section and (4) should I have my head examined and go for something smaller that could be expanded later. Any comments and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Jeremy in Edmond, Oklahoma
Howdy, Jeremy.
A few of quick comments:
The double track north of Peekskill would be the logical place to either terminate your visible route or arrange a helix to another level where you could continue to Poughkeepsie and beyond. Except for a big aggregate plant, there really wasn't much industry along that stretch - but there used to be active track pans that could make an interesting model scene.
If I were to attempt to model the NYC's Hudson River operation I would almost certainly build a succession of modules to be mounted on shelf brackets. John Armstrong-style reverted loops would be a good way to approach staging at both ends while maximizing visible mainline run - and include a 'sneak through' thoroughfare track to close the loop between the ends of what is logically a pure point-to-point plan. The entire NYC - Hudson Narrows route should be built as the Plywood (or Extruded Foam) Central - through trackage enough to run on. Then you can detail the Duyvil out of each module as the mood strikes you.
Then all you have to do is find the NYC's employee timetable for your period of choice...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - to the prototype's timetable, 24/30)
I wouldn't say you need your head examined, it sounds like you know what you want and just need some coaxing to dive in. I do not know much of anything about the NYC in NYC. If you are following prototype, then unfortunately switching is going to be a big part of it. Thats just part of any RR. You don't have to always use the switches, but it can offer benifits such as making a scene (cant have loose cars just sitting on the main) and maybe next Friday you'll get around to dragging that hopper out from under the tipple. I would just recommend not dwelling on the little things and make progress to get the train running. It helps inspire ideas and prevents it from becoming a task rather than a hobby. Just remember "BIG PICTURE"
The real challenge is staging and crossovers/interlockings. If you are going to the trouble of making a4 track main then you will probably want #8's for crossovers, etc. So an interlocking where you can get from one track to any other track will be several feet long. Unless you are going to keep recycling the same trains all the time, you will need a large staging area to hold your fleet of trains. In a 24 hour period the NYC would probably be pushing 40-50 freight and long distance passenger trains through that area plus the dozens of commuters.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Slowly building a layout since 2007!
I would think what I might call a "double dogbone" - kinda like a double track oval squished together in the middle so all four tracks are together next to each other - would be the simplest way to do it. That way two trains can run on their own, sometimes meeting each other and sometimes running next to each in the same direction. Plus you could have a train on the inside tracks running by itself while you operated a wayfreight on the outside tracks, picking up and setting out cars.
Hmm, wouldn't the Manhattan part south of the 125th St. lend itself to a double decker concept anyway (although in real life there is not much distance from the tunnel roofs to street level - this was one reason they couldn't use more modern traffic lights on Park Avenue for a long time) - anyway what I mean is use the bottom portion to model the Park Ave tunnels/GCT, and the top portion overlying it would be some other area of the NYC - perhaps the line out to the St. Mary's tunnel/Port Morris or the Putnam Branch or some such.
Sometime around 1959 (I think) Model Railroader had an article featuring a track plan based on the junction at Spuyten Duyvil. I have it here (somewhere) and if I can work up enough ambition to dig it up, I'll post more info later. Maybe not the area you're looking to model, but interesting just the same.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Thanks very much for all of your replies and suggestions! Chuck, you are quite correct in your comments regarding the electrified third rail and the P motors and T motors that pulled the trains. Unfortunately, I don't think these motors are modeled for N scale equipment unless they are available in European versions like Marklin. How would I model a third rail in N scale? Does a commercial model exist? I like your idea about building a series of modules 1 at a time and then connecting them. That way I can see what I am really in for, and can quit at any time!
My plan would be based on a dogbone model with return loops/staging at both ends. Because the route is basically flat and "water level", grades are not a problem but I would like to model parts of the Huson that had mountains and tunnels like the area around Cold Spring so-called Break Neck Mountain. Of course, quite a bit of selective compression will be required in a plan like this. My big dilemma is whether or not I want to get involved in doing a helix (double track) and a second deck.....that sounds like a daunting task. I do have the book on building double deckers and helicies, but that sounds like a pretty complex bit of carpentry and benchwork. On the other hand, it allows for the longest mainline run.
I remember the 1959 MR article featuring a track plan involving Spuyten Duyvil and the NYC 6 track mainline north. It also modelled the West side freight line and freight yards. Does anybody know of a more recent model or plan? Surely sombody else has figuered out how to model the NYC mainline??
Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I will keep you posted.
Jeremy
CaptainJ go for something smaller that could be expanded later. Any comments and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Jeremy in Edmond, Oklahoma
go for something smaller that could be expanded later. Any comments and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Yes. I'd suggest modeling something like Poughkeepsie. A fairly busy station with turnaround facilities for local commutes. You still have your boulevard of steel, an engine terminal and some interesting industries along the line. I Wouldn't suggest tackling Croton/Harmon unless you have the T and P motors. The shop facilities are large as well. Besides up around Poughkeepsie you have more classic scenery that is truly representative of the water level route. You could always expand later.
The current issue of the "Central Headlight", the magazine of the NYC Hist. Soc., has a pic of editor (and RR author) R.L. Stoving's model railroad which is based on the 4-track mainline up the Hudson. I don't know if his layout has ever been in MR, RMC etc., a quick web search didn't turn up anything. But I'm sure he's not the only person out there modelling the NYC 4-track mainline.
If you're building an around the walls layout, you could look into John Sterling shelving components. I'm using them to build a two-deck layout. I use concrete screws to connect the horizontal "hang tracks" to the concrete wall, then have hangers hanging down every 18" which I also screw into the wall. (If you have a finished basement, you can screw them into the studs.) Then I use the double shelf brackets. I have two levels of shelving for the layout, one above the layout to attach lights for the upper level (and allowing storage above the layout) and one level of shelf down by the floor for more storage.
I experimented with different size shelves and settled on 16" x 36" shelf pieces for the layout, but 2' x 4' plywood worked fine too.
http://johnsterling.com/aboutfastmount.htm
I'm not planning on connecting the two levels - they're basically two separate layouts - but if you want to do a helix, you could consider a "kit" version:
http://www.easyhelix.com/
I am planning a similar situation - the 4 track electrified mainlne of the New Haven Railroad centered around the New Haven Union Station with the 2 track Shore Line departing the East end. The NYC area is far too complex for me to model so I will be modeling only segments of the area from Rye, NY to New Haven.
It will be a double track dogbone with multitrack return loops at each end for staging expanded to 4 tracks on the West end. The staging representing the car floats from New Jersey for freight and GCT and Penn Station for passenger traffic will be on level 1 reached by a nolix. The staging representing Boston will be on level 3 reached by a nolix. Again, I will show only the Shore Line as far as New London, CT. The Mainline and New Haven Union Station will be on level two and the Shore Line on level 4 reached by either a nolix or a helix.
By using the New Haven station as the center piece, I have the advantage of featuring the engine change from electrics to steam/diesel power as happened there. You could accomplish the same thing using Harmon as your centerpiece.
Modeling in N gauge does create some problems in the area of NYC electrics, but you could start with some marklins until something better comes along. I wouldn't worry about the thrid rail, in N gauge a strip of wood 1/16 inch sqaure painted brown suspended on wire nails would do the trick. You don't even want to think about operating on 3rd rail. I am just using the Catenary towers with no wiring for effect.
Having ridden the Water Level Route from GCT to Chicago on many occassions in the fifties I can vouch for the fabulous scenery up the Hudson. If I were you, I would consider using one of the tunnel portals to enter the helix as I am doing with the East Haven tunnels. This would provide a logical seque to the rest of the double track ROW to staging representing Albany.
By modeling the transition era, I can run the I-4 Pacifics and the I-5 Shoreliners (Hudsons) as well as the DL-109s, PAs and FH C-Liners. You might also consider the Hudsons and Mohawks as well for some consists.
Here's my suggestion, for what it is worth.
With that much track, short runs will look "lacking".
I would do one of two things:
1. if you don't mind a minimal grade, create a very long layout that is always climbing, so that you have a second level that ends up running over top of the first level. Thing of it like a helix, expanded to 20 radius. the grade would be under 1%, I bet.
2. do a double decked layout witha helix. you have room for one, and it will double your mainline.