turnout control: switches vs. decoders

[Calflash]

tomikawaTT

Calflash, what does your system do that I can't do with a hot probe and a handful of diodes?  Specifically, I have a diode matrix that allows me to select the one inbound route for my train entering staging, out of two separate yards with eleven total tracks plus a bypass (to passenger staging) and a motor pocket.  Wiring required?  ONE wire per turnout, plus a hot bus to the probe and a turnout common connection back to the dedicated 3-amp power supply that powers only that zone's turnouts and a couple of indicator lamps.

Everyone to his own choice and methods, but with walkaround controls I prefer not to be tied to a control panel hense the use of DCC controlled turnouts. Also it provides a simple method for unfamiliar operators to simply enter a macro for the track or route they want. My approach possibly not yours.

Cal

[jbinkley60]

nik_n_dad

boatman909

 If you are serious about using DCC to control your turnouts (and signals) and want indicator lamps on a control panel, with the option to also have toggle switches control each turnout, then look at the Team Digital SRC16. (see http://www.teamdigital1.com/prod_catalogue/src16_product/src16.htm)

 

John- this looks pretty cool.  We'll have to explore it more.

On my purchase of a DCC system (Nik doesn't know about it yet), I went with the radio NCE system.  They have accessories for running the tortoise and some sort of "smart panel" thing for switces (which can also be programmed with  routing too)

Thanks for the info- appreciated

 

I took a look at these.  They are pretty nice and the cost per turnout seems reasonable until you add in the cost of the MotoDs.   I didn't see whre they support cascaded routes.  They might but I can't find it in the documentation.  It tends to indicate iot might via the serial bus but it isn't definitive.  Also I see they don't have loop prevention for the route programming.   Digitrax DS64s have loop prevention and support cascaded routes.  Just something to consider.

 

[nik_n_dad]

boatman909

 If you are serious about using DCC to control your turnouts (and signals) and want indicator lamps on a control panel, with the option to also have toggle switches control each turnout, then look at the Team Digital SRC16. (see http://www.teamdigital1.com/prod_catalogue/src16_product/src16.htm)

 

John- this looks pretty cool.  We'll have to explore it more.

On my purchase of a DCC system (Nik doesn't know about it yet), I went with the radio NCE system.  They have accessories for running the tortoise and some sort of "smart panel" thing for switces (which can also be programmed with  routing too)

Thanks for the info- appreciated

 

[Phoebe Vet]

The DS64 can be powered by the track, but the preferred method is a 12 volt wall wart or power supply.  Commands come through Loconet.  It is therefore independent of track power.  It also has provisions for operation by throttle or computer switch commands, push buttons, or even an occupancy detector.  It can run routes, and cascading routes.  It can be used to control snap switches, slow motion switches, or crossing signals and gates.

[maxman]

Phoebe Vet

I don't understand your concern about isolated circuit breaker buss for turnout control.  DS64s are controlled by Loconet, besides that, you will have to remove the derailed loco from the fouled switch before it can be thrown anyway.  I can't imagine needing a separate booster just for turnout control. 

I don't know about DS64s and Loconet.  I use NCE and their Switch-It decoders.  What I did was have the Switch-It power come off a bus connected between the booster/command station and the breaker I use to cut of the power if a short is caused by a derailment.  If I am running the engine at any sort of reasonable speed and get a short because I entered a turnout thrown against me, the engine will stall at the gaps I've installed at the frog ends of the turnout.  If this happens, I can indeed re-align the turnout without removing the engine because the turnout power is coming from in front of the breaker.

Concerning some of the other questions, if you use the Switch-It to power the Tortoise, the Switch-It has a provision for connection of momentary pushbuttons that will throw the Tortoise without needing the handcab.  I think some of the other accessory decoders out there also have this provision.  The NCE Switch-8 does not have this capability.

Our club layout trackplan was laid out in the late 1960s, so it is not entirely conducive to the walk-around operation that is a feature of DCC.  Most of the railroad is operated with operator panels where each person controls a portion of the line, including turnouts.  These turnouts are operated by Tortoise motors powered through rotary switches.  However, we do have a branchline where the operator panel is located in a pit.  When we converted this section to DCC, we installed the Switch-It so that the engineer did not have to crawl under the layout to the pit just to throw a turnout.  In addition, these turnouts were located too far for the operator aisle to be thrown by hand.

We also have a new switching area which never had an operating panel.  We installed Switch-Its to avoid having to build a panel.

Finally, we have a new/revised narrow gage section to the railroad.  This section originally had a control panel.  However, the track layout was extensively revised to the point where the original panel layout bore no resemblance to the revised product.  Many of the turnouts on this section will be hand thrown, but again there are some that are just inconvient/impossible to reach during normal operation.  We are going to use Switch-Its for these.  I will also add that we were able to get a portion of this area up and running a lot faster using DCC because we didn't have to wait until all the track was in to build a panel so that we could begin operation.

[jbinkley60]

One thing to keep in mind is the ability of the stationary decoder to do cascaded routes or not.  It often separates the pack.  Cascaded routes allows a route to go across multiple stationary decoders without having to utilize routes within your DCC system.  This becomes important with the number of turnouts you are controlling exceeds the capacity of a single stationary decoder, which is often the case in yards.  I have one yard route which controls 13 turnouts.  I can dial up the route or hit the panel pushbutton and all 13 turnouts go the correct direction.  It becomes nice because I can put a pushbutton on a yard track, tie it to a route and then when I hit the button (or dial the route) all of the turnouts go the right direction to get the locomotive there. 

Just something to consider before making a major investment in stationary controllers. 

 

[ClinchValleySD40]

I use NCE Switch It decoders on all mainline switches (Tortoise) but use local control panels with LEDs on the fascia to control them at this time.   When the signal system/dispatcher panel is installed, they will be controlled by the dispatcher.   Trying to plan ahead for the signal system.

Larry

[boatman909]

 If you are serious about using DCC to control your turnouts (and signals) and want indicator lamps on a control panel, with the option to also have toggle switches control each turnout, then look at the Team Digital SRC16. (see http://www.teamdigital1.com/prod_catalogue/src16_product/src16.htm)

 It can control 8 solenoid switch machines or 16 Tortoises, display routing information using LEDs on a control panel and allows you to use either your throttle, panel switches or for the really adventurous, make one SRC16 a Loconet gateway, and hook it up to your PC and have a automatic train control setup.  You can then use the free JRMI software to create an electronic control panel and manage routing for your trains and set up your stationary decoders.

 You can also use this set up to control signals....

 John
_________________________________________
steaming into the future

[nik_n_dad]

How do you wire the turnout motors (like a tortoise) to be able to be flipped by either the decoder or a panel switch?

Just got back from Caboose Hobby with our first DCC system (will surprise the kiddo on his birthday with it if I can figure out how to install decoders).

I have been hesitant to go DCC for the cost of conversion on our fleet, and also my likely ineptness at installing things like decoders.... but since we're getting ready to build our new layout, thought maybe this may be the time to start DCC.

One of the big selling points for me today was how they (Caboose) talked up the ability to use stationary decoders for turnouts and the ability to set up routing.  For our upcoming layout (n-scale, around the walls in a spare room), the ability to "control everything" from the cab really had alot of appeal.

It's always just one or two of us that play with our trains, and we don't belong to a club, so some of the topics discussed don't apply- but still appreciated.

 

On a different note, anyone have any pointers on where I can get some of the more difficult locos have their decoders installed?  The n-scale repair guy at Caboose is about to retire, and they don't have a replacement.

Thanks again for all the discussion 

 

 

[jbinkley60]

Phoebe Vet

Eight of my turnouts are in tunnels.  Not wanting to crawl in there to throw them, I elected to use DS64s.  I found the ability to use routes so handy that I have installed DS64s to control all my turnouts.  You can still throw them with a button on a panel if you like.  With detection, you can even be sure that you never run a train through a switch that is set the wrong way. 

Ditto.  I have 7 DS64s and 1 DS44 controlling 32 turnouts.  Using cascaded routes is fantastic for yard switching.  I've started augmenting my control panels with push button switches to allow control either from the throttle or via pushbutton. No more diode matrices.  If you don't like a route, just reprogram it.  

 

[cv_acr]

cuyama

I'm a big fan of DCC for running trains, but personally I'd much rather use switches on the fascia or the layout surface to throw the turnouts. For staging yard throats and other similar situations, you can use a matrix to throw a whole route with one electrical switch, even without DCC.

Same here. I can't imagine having to punch in accessory decoder numbers every time i need to throw a switch (especially on the club layout where we'll have hundreds of switches - how do you remember all those decoder or macro numbers for the correct turnouts and routes?); having toggles available on the layout fascia right near the actual switches is a much more friendly interface.

DCC is great for eliminating block control and having to throw block switches and not worrying about block boundaries and providing the ability to run right up to another engine(s) on the same track (raise your hand if you've been involved in a head-on collision based on a switch for a passing siding that was thrown the wrong way!) but for switch control, throwing a toggle or pushing a button is much more natural than entering in addresses. After setting up the train consist, all I need to do with my throttle is push speed up, slow down or reverse direction. (and turn the headlight on, or sound horn & bell if it's a sound unit :) )

[cuyama]

Phoebe Vet

I don't understand your concern about isolated circuit breaker buss for turnout control.  DS64s are controlled by Loconet, besides that, you will have to remove the derailed loco from the fouled switch before it can be thrown anyway.  I can't imagine needing a separate booster just for turnout control. 

If you don't have a lot of turnouts, you don't need a separate booster, you're right. I'll stick with the other statement about isolating the buss for the decoders with a circuit breaker ... I've seen situations, especially in hidden turnouts, where being able to correct the turnout would allow one to pull more of the train to a reachable position. As well as being easier to troubleshoot. Seems like cheap insurance. But hey, suit yourself.

[Phoebe Vet]

I don't understand your concern about isolated circuit breaker buss for turnout control.  DS64s are controlled by Loconet, besides that, you will have to remove the derailed loco from the fouled switch before it can be thrown anyway.  I can't imagine needing a separate booster just for turnout control. 

[cuyama]

I'm a big fan of DCC for running trains, but personally I'd much rather use switches on the fascia or the layout surface to throw the turnouts. For staging yard throats and other similar situations, you can use a matrix to throw a whole route with one electrical switch, even without DCC.

If you do choose to go with DCC-operated turnouts, I'd strongly suggest having the DCC buss for the turnouts isloated with a circuit breaker or on a separate booster. Otherwise, when a loco runs a misaligned turnout (pilot error), derails, and shorts out, you may not be able to throw the turnout to correct it -- because it will be on the same buss as the short.

Byron
Model RR Blog

[nik_n_dad]

 Thanks for the replies.

We should have been a little more clear (one should never post too late at night).  On the new layout we are working towards, we planned on using tortoises for most, if not all the turnouts.  Haven't decided about the yard yet, whether that will be ground throws or tortoii.

We're still on DC, but thinking (stress "thinking") about moving Nik & I to DCC (am going to Caboose Hobbies in a few minutes to decide).  The thought is, if we are going to do DCC, we do it all the way- wireeless and maybe with turnout comtrol.
 

Part of the reasoning to use the decoders is to simplify the wiring of the layout.  Hadn't thought about doing both decoders & switches....not sure how one would wire that up.

 Thanks again for the help- look forward to more.  (And I won't start a religious war of bringing up Digitrax Super Chief vs. NCE)

 
Happy Saturday
 

[Phoebe Vet]

Eight of my turnouts are in tunnels.  Not wanting to crawl in there to throw them, I elected to use DS64s.  I found the ability to use routes so handy that I have installed DS64s to control all my turnouts.  You can still throw them with a button on a panel if you like.  With detection, you can even be sure that you never run a train through a switch that is set the wrong way. 

[tomikawaTT]

Calflash

nik_n_dad

How many folks have installed decoders on their turnouts and used their DCC cab to control them vs having a control panel with conventional switches? Thoughts? Experiences? Pros & Cons?

I'm using stationary decoders to control the turnouts on the lower hidden level of my layout so I can use macros to throw all needed for a desired route with one command. IE you want to go into track #1 (entry end of a loop), you just enter macro 1 and it throws up to 3 turnouts as needed to get you there. I will use more conventional toggle switches for the upper visible portion of the layout.

I have worked on a layout where the aisles were so narrow at spots that we even recessed the toggle switches to prevent inadvertant actuation. Throwrods etc for manual would have been nice but impractical. 

Cal

Caveat - I don't believe that anything other than locomotives, lighted cars and occupancy detectors should be powered from the DCC system.  As far as power requirements go, one KTM twin-coil switch machine equals one Broadway Limited (2 powered E units, a dozen lighted cars) or a couple of freights.

Calflash, what does your system do that I can't do with a hot probe and a handful of diodes?  Specifically, I have a diode matrix that allows me to select the one inbound route for my train entering staging, out of two separate yards with eleven total tracks plus a bypass (to passenger staging) and a motor pocket.  Wiring required?  ONE wire per turnout, plus a hot bus to the probe and a turnout common connection back to the dedicated 3-amp power supply that powers only that zone's turnouts and a couple of indicator lamps.

Even with ample aisleways for my not-inconsiderable girth I recess my manual controls in the fascia.  They are toggle switches, connected below the subgrade to the Anderson links that throw the turnout points - with monofilament fishing line!  I also mount my twin coil machines just inside the fascia (behind removable panels) and connect them the same way.  Points are held in the 'default' position by weights hanging off the other end of the fishing line beyond the Anderson link.  The only guides I need are small screweyes (my subgrade is plywood.)

I only install switch machines for turnouts that would be CTC-controllable on the prototype.  All others are manual.  I estimate the cost of a manual control is at least $6.00 less than that of a bought-on-sale RIX twin-coil, and probably more than $10.00 less than a discounted Tortoise (and those don't include the price of a fixed decoder...)

As I said in a post to another thread on switch controls, the local's engineer doesn't throw switches by pushing buttons on his console.  They are thrown by ground men with switch keys and muscles.

CTC controlled switches?  One wire per machine from CTC panel to Zone panel.  The CTC panel has its own dedicated power supply, one end connected to the Turnout Common bus.  Transfer switches on the zone panel allow a given machine to be controlled either by CTC or by the local op - but never both at the same time.  Those indicator lamps I mentioned let both CTC and Zone operators know which routes have been selected through turnouts controlled from both places.

Just my .  Other opinions are sure to differ, since other approaches are possible.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)

 

[mrazz]

If you wanted to control all of your turn outs electrically, couldn't you set up a panel of switchs and control them totaly independent of your DCC power? My question is how would you set a system like that up and power it? Any sugesstions?

[jwils1]

I prefer to use decoders and throw turnouts from my throttle.  I normally operate alone and can run my entire layout from one location so it's most convenient to route my trains using my DCC throttle.  When I do need to walk around and follow a train to do switching I could throw switches manually but still prefer to use the throttle.

I have 27 Atlas remote turnouts and use Lenz LS150 6-unit decoders powered by an old DC power pack.  This all works very well but does involve a lot of wiring.  Depending on how you run your layout, manual operation can be more economical and prototypical but my method works best for my situation. 

[Calflash]

nik_n_dad

How many folks have installed decoders on their turnouts and used their DCC cab to control them vs having a control panel with conventional switches? Thoughts? Experiences? Pros & Cons?

I'm using stationary decoders to control the turnouts on the lower hidden level of my layout so I can use macros to throw all needed for a desired route with one command. IE you want to go into track #1 (entry end of a loop), you just enter macro 1 and it throws up to 3 turnouts as needed to get you there. I will use more conventional toggle switches for the upper visible portion of the layout.

I have worked on a layout where the aisles were so narrow at spots that we even recessed the toggle switches to prevent inadvertant actuation. Throwrods etc for manual would have been nice but impractical. 

Cal

[MPRR]

nik_n_dad

How many folks have installed decoders on their turnouts and used their DCC cab to control them vs having a control panel with conventional switches? Thoughts? Experiences? Pros & Cons?

Well, it depends on how automated you want.  Or maybe you have a far reaching switch behind a bunch of scenery... Then I'd have a motor for that switch. You might have a yard with a bunch of turnouts and not have the space for switchstands. So motors would be good there.

Now on the other hand... Stopping a train at each turnout along the main to flip a switch before proceeding simulates the switchman actually working  the switches, which in turn lengthens the time between point A and point B.

As for the manual control knobs on the facia to control switches.... One could use them when buildings, scenery or some other force of nature prohibits sticking your hand in to flip the switch yourself. Or the little guy can't reach swithces, and you just don't want to add switch machines and decoders to all your switches.  

Hope that gives a little insight.
Mike

[nik_n_dad]

How many folks have installed decoders on their turnouts and used their DCC cab to control them vs having a control panel with conventional switches? Thoughts? Experiences? Pros & Cons?