I am starting to plan my version of the HOGRR. It appeals to me as it is only 12" shelves arranged in an 8'X8' square. Since there is only 12" to work with, is there any advantage to using blue foam over the plywood? As far as I can tell, there is no creeks or elevation changes. It seems that the installation of tortoises and track in general would be easier directly on plywood but I haven't done that since I was a child and had Lionel equipment.
73
Bruce in the Peg
For that size and type of a layout I do not see the need or any advantage.
Bruce, if I were building that layout, I would use 1/2" plywood, decent quality, and be done with it. In the odd place where I elected to provide some vertical relief, or some realistic topography, I would carve up some short lengths of foam and glue them in place. Say you would want a rock cut...the grade is not to change, so shape your cuts on either side of the tracks and then have the rest of the foam chunks with the rock cuts on one face going on to the backdrop and the fascia.
For the dimensions of the modules in this layout, it would be either/or...1-2" foam supported on the outer frame members of each box/shelf, or 1/2" ply with the odd lump of shaped foam for topographical relief here and there....simple.
-Crandell
Blind BruceIt appeals to me as it is only 12" shelves arranged in an 8'X8' square
Yes, but they aren't shelves.
Shelf:
a. A flat, usually rectangular structure composed of a rigid material, such as wood, glass, or metal, fixed at right angles to a wall or other vertical surface and used to hold or store objects.
Ok midnight, what would you have them called? We say "shelf" layout and understand it means a thin width layout, generaly less than 24". In our language we drive on parkways, park on driveways, and rain cats and dogs. I call my current HO layout a "shelf" layout even though it's made of sturdy 3/4" ply with 2x4 supports, and also attached to the wall beams but not supported by them. I agree that a 4x8 is not optimum for a layout, but as a novice railroader back when I was about 10 years old I didn't have power tools or the skills to do anything else. So a 4x8 was set up in the basement using readily availble commercial lumber that did not need to be cut, and off I went.
To answer the original question, I also see no real advantage to using foam over plywood. Foam is useful stuff, but it's not the magic bullet of model railroading. I would probably use plywood if I found myself in a similar situation as you.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
tangerine-jackbut as a novice railroader back when I was about 10 years old I didn't have power tools or the skills to do anything else. So a 4x8 was set up in the basement using readily availble commercial lumber that did not need to be cut, and off I went.
That's fine for a 10-year-old. Never said it wasn't.
I'd call the HOG a "doughnut" shaped layout. You know exactly what it looks like if someone tells you that.
I'm willing to concede that a layout against the walls--like a shelf--can be legitimately called a shelf layout even if the walls do not physically support it.
The reason this nomenclature issue got to me is, people seem to thing everything is a table or a shelf. It first came up when I suggested someone not build a 4x8--they said they didn't have room for a shelf layout. But there are about a million other options. That imagery limits you to a very narrow scope; was the G&D a table or a shelf?
All layouts including the G&D are a blend of the two. If shelf and table compared to red and white, than all layouts are pink a blend of the two.
Of course it varies from side to side and depending on how you loosly define the rules of each your layout may be more one than the other.
Most people consider a shelf layout entirly supported by the wall, and of course the table entirly supported by the floor. Well our local McDonalds tables are supported off the wall but I don't consider them shelves. My layout in work (design phase) is around the room shelf type layout but it won't be supported by the walls nor the floor rather the ceiling and side compression.
Table or Shelf it makes no difference to the origional posters question. Nor does table or shelf decribe the shape of the layout mearly the image it envokes within the scope of your imagination.
Oh trust me Midnight, I agree with you. But it's an uphill battle trying to "save" the language or nomenclatures in this hobby. For example I also restore and ride Triumph motorcycles. One of the members of our online club lives in Australia. He was bragging about smoking barbie on Christmas day while wearing his thongs. Two people separated by a common language.
We as a species like to have things labeled and in order. We like categories of things. It is natural that "table" and "shelf" appeal to 99% of the modelers as a way of describing something. But just as I would not use technical jargon while speaking with someone who is not in the industry, we should be more aware when we give advice to a newbie to inform them of the "million other options". In that respect I cannot agree with you more.
Not wanting to add fuel to anyone's fire, I have to thank you for using a descriptive name like 'doughnut' because my mind could not picture a 12" shelf arranged as a 8'x8' square. I guess that's because I'm a picture-person, show me a picture, I will describe it, give me a description and I will curl into a fetal position.
Thanks again.
Foam is good for scenery, 'cause you can shape it any way you like with nothing more than a steak knife. No water, no drips and slops of plaster on the floor. If you aren't planning to shape the foam, there isn't much point to using it. Down side to foam is it won't take fasteners of any kind, you cannot nail track down on foam. You have to use latex caulk as glue to fasten down roadbed and track.
Plywood is so hard that it is difficult-to-impossible to drive track nails or spikes into it. At least HO nails and spikes.
Homosote is popular because it does accept fasteners and also deadens sound. Was it me, I'd think about putting a layer of Homosote on top of the plywood, just to give a good base for fasteners. I'd back up the Homosote with plywood 'cause be itself Homosote will sag over time.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
dstarr Homosote is popular because it does accept fasteners and also deadens sound. Was it me, I'd think about putting a layer of Homosote on top of the plywood, just to give a good base for fasteners. I'd back up the Homosote with plywood 'cause be itself Homosote will sag over time.
Until recently, I'd never even heard of using a whole sheet of homasote on a layout.
I was taught that homasote was a roadbed, to be cut into the shape of the track line, to elevate the track above the subroadbed, not to be used as a base for scenery.
I think just laying out a sheet of it adds unneeded weight to the layout--you certainly can't use it as the subroadbed; it isn't strong enough. Also adds unnecessary cost.
If you are not using it as a roadbed, then don't bother with it.
I have never had a problem driving track nails into plywood (when I did it that way), and am handlaying track right now with no problem dirivng spikes into plywood, either.
Bruce:
To answer your original question, I don't think foam would be necessary atop plywood for the kind of layout you're describing. But--and this is a BIG 'but'--try to get the best quality plywood you can. The better the plywood, the easier it is to work with.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Midnight Railroader I'm willing to concede that a layout against the walls--like a shelf--can be legitimately called a shelf layout even if the walls do not physically support it.
You should start a new thread to bring up this topic. I think that discussion might be interesting.
My questions to you are if you are willing concede that a layout along the walls is a shelf layout, does this mean 1 wall, two walls , or more? Would there be a ratio of length to width that would define a shelf?
Out of curiosity I went through the recent Model Railroad Planning book. They call about 7 of the different layout styles "liner walkaround". Another style is "around the walls", but I can't tell what differentiates this one from the others. The plan sizes range from 6 X 15 feet HO up to 61 X 82 O scale and 36 X 45 HO. This last plan has one section that is about 2 feet by 26 feet and another 2 feet by 32 feet. Both of these sections are along a wall and certainly look like "shelves" to me. I think we'd both agree that these are not "shelf" layouts. But I don't think anyone could identify with the plan if I told them it was a linear walkaround either.
Used to be that layouts were described as "N's", "M's", "table", "around the wall", et cetera. And the larger ones as described above would be found in the "if I had a million" section.
Anyway, as I said, probably fodder for a discussion.
Regards
Midnight Railroader Until recently, I'd never even heard of using a whole sheet of homasote on a layout. I was taught that homasote was a roadbed, to be cut into the shape of the track line, to elevate the track above the subroadbed, not to be used as a base for scenery. I think just laying out a sheet of it adds unneeded weight to the layout--you certainly can't use it as the subroadbed; it isn't strong enough. Also adds unnecessary cost. If you are not using it as a roadbed, then don't bother with it. I have never had a problem driving track nails into plywood (when I did it that way), and am handlaying track right now with no problem dirivng spikes into plywood, either.
Homasote is a trade name for an artificial insulating board made from ground up paper. It comes in 4*8 sheets from the lumber yard. There is a company that makes roadbed out of Homasote, they oughta have a web site out there somewhere. For that matter, the stuff cuts easily and you can make your own roadbed out of it.
If want the flexibility of just nailing down your track, Homasote gives the best "hold" for the nails. If you use cork roadbed atop the Homasote it still helps by grabbing the track nails as they poke thru the cork.
BTW, I surely do remember bending a whole lotta track nails, pushing them into plywood with long nose pliers. I wound up drilling holes in the plywood with a small number size bit in a pin vise to get the track nailed down.
Midnight RailroaderUntil recently, I'd never even heard of using a whole sheet of homasote on a layout.
A mostly whole sheet of Homasote.
To be fair, this table was part of a yard for an On3 layout, by the late Allen J Brewster, of the Kalmbach art department. It is 8 foot long, half 3 foot wide, half 4 foot wide. Fits my available space pretty good.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
dstarr Homasote is a trade name for an artificial insulating board made from ground up paper. It comes in 4*8 sheets from the lumber yard. There is a company that makes roadbed out of Homasote, they oughta have a web site out there somewhere. For that matter, the stuff cuts easily and you can make your own roadbed out of it.
Thanks, I'm familiar with Homasote.
I've just never seen anyone use it for anything on a layout but roadbed, whether they bought Homa-Bed or cut it out themselves.
Unless you're laying a whole yard, I still don't see a point in laying out a whole sheet of it on top of plywood. I have never had trouble driving track nails into plywood with a hammer and nailset.