Hi,
After 2 years of procrastinating, the decision to tear down and rebuild my 14 year old 11x15 2 level HO layout has been made, and the new layout design phase has begun!
I have to say I'm well armed for the task (actually labor of love), with room templates, drafting equipment, quadrille paper, and several layout doodlings from years past, and several Kalmbach books for guides. Most important, I have a comprehensive listing of "what went right, what went wrong, and what I would do differently" that has been maintained since day one of the existing layout.
Anyway, scale plans should be finished by New Years, demolition and room refinishing done by February, first level benchwork and staging tracks & wiring in by March, main level benchwork and mainline tracks in by May, main level wiring (DCC) and yard/sidings/facilities trackage in by June.
The one big problem I face - and I suspect most of you have too - is that I "want it all" in my 11x15 space, and that just ain't gonna happen. But I promise you, I'll give it my best shot!
Wish my luck!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Good luck. Don't call it done until you are 100% sure. I've found most problems have a solution that becomes evident when you walk away from it for a while.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Hi!
You sure have that right, cause if there is any reasonable doubt about your plan, you best revisit it later.
Yesterday, after going through several possibilities, I drew up the lower level staging area (which I have on the existing layout), and in the process laid out the outline of the layout benchwork itself. While this may not be the final, it is pretty close as it meets my "wants and needs".
Well this morning I went through a folder of scale drawings I did between 1980 and 1994 (the year the existing layout was started), and found one that was almost an exact duplicate of what I came up with yesterday. Scary, isn't it?
The design stats are fairly well established, in that the grade between levels is a max of 2 1/2 percent, minimum radius is 24 inch, mainline high speed turnouts are # 8, all others are # 6 - with the exception of freight yard and industry sidings which will be # 4. One thing I need to re-check is how well the Walther's passenger cars will deal with 24 inch radius. The BLI 2-10-4, 2-10-2, & 4-8-4 should be ok, but I will re-check that as well.
I sure wish I had a larger train room - like 10x20 or 20x20 - but I am very grateful for what I have (11x15) and realize that a whole lot of folks on this forum would be extremely happy with that space. Sooo, no complaints out of me!
ENJOY,
mobilman44 ... One thing I need to re-check is how well the Walther's passenger cars will deal with 24 inch radius. The BLI 2-10-4, 2-10-2, & 4-8-4 should be ok, but I will re-check that as well. I sure wish I had a larger train room - like 10x20 or 20x20 - but I am very grateful for what I have (11x15) and realize that a whole lot of folks on this forum would be extremely happy with that space. Sooo, no complaints out of me! ENJOY, Mobilman44
... One thing I need to re-check is how well the Walther's passenger cars will deal with 24 inch radius. The BLI 2-10-4, 2-10-2, & 4-8-4 should be ok, but I will re-check that as well.
I sort of winced when I saw your statement. The success you have with both engines and cars of the Walthers heavyweight type, and their joinedness as a consist, depends almost wholely on how well you lay out those curves and easements into them. BLI 2-10-4's are good to really fine 22" curves, with virtually no room for fudging. 24" will be better, but that is the minimum stated for the Walthers cars. I and several other regulars here have reported that the heavyweights are marginal at 24" radius. You can all but forget high speed operations through such curves in my experience (although I admit that I'm not the world's most careful, persistent, or accomplished layer of HO 24" flaxtrack curves ).
Aside from those caveats, as a personal bit of advice, I think you will be dismayed with the way things look running around those tight curves. The engine will be bad enough with its serious cab overhand outboard of the outer rail on curves, but the passenger cars are very long and will not be aesthetically pleasing wound against each other at the couplers and curtains as they are sure to be.
You have a fair bit of room, placing you in the top 10% of all modellers' available space in the hobby, even in N. America where we have oodles of free space in our living areas compared to those in Europe and in Asia (odd, because it costs us tons to heat those spaces above the 40th, and I do mean tons...as in CO2). Now would be the time to abandon some notions that will work contrarily to what you'd liike to accomplish and enjoy, and deal soberly with the truths that must necessarily replace them. Shorter passenger cars, perhaps, and a Pacific instead? Or, get out the Thinking Cap and figure out how to shoehorn 28" and wider curves into your space in a way that achieves your aims.
I hope my musings don't come late in your deliberative process...I would not want to impose them on you if that is the case. But it is honestly how I feel about what you are contemplating.
-Crandell
Crandell,
Thank you for your time - and comments and advice.
Funny thing, my favorite passenger consist is a 13 car set of Athearn heavyweights that I applied metal wheels, KDs, painted and decaled, etc. for the ATSF. Main power used to be a Rivorossi Pacific (long gone to Ebay), and now I use various ATSF Stewart F unit ABBA consists. I've got the Walther's Super Chief cars, Spectrum heavyweight ATSF cars, and all the Walther's IC heavyweight and lightweight cars - but have not used them with anything other than the Stewarts on the existing layout.
Obiously I am a bit leery of the 24 inch radius, although I do pretty good easements and have some full size track templates for the different radii to key off of. So, I am going to revisit using 26" minimum and see if I can work it out. If I can, great! If not, it looks like I might be adding to my Ebay sales.
I'm heavily into HO, and the Santa Fe and IC - big mainline railroading in the '40s/'50s. But given my space, I probably would do better with short line or narrow gauge HO or staying with the big railroads and going to N scale. But, as I say, I am too committed to the Santa Fe and IC to leave them, and N scale is just too small for me to work comfortably with. Ha, I built a pretty nice N scale layout in 1988 (20 years ago!) and even then I struggled with the small track/rolling stock, and finally sold it off.
Hey, thanks again, and I will keep the Forum updated on my progress!!!
I have a space similar to yours, and used 26" and 28" curves on the Mains and 24" on the branch. I ended up with a big oval, but hey I'm not too imaginative, and wanted wide aisles. Also, I didn't give enough thought to my operations. My original plan was for mainline action with limited switching. As I started operating, I realized I didn't provide enough local switching, and left out some critical crossovers, creating bottlenecks that degraded the mainline operation.
To rectify these issues, I added a second switching area, and am in the process of cutting in additional crossovers to ease the operational bottlenecks.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
mobilman44I'm heavily into HO, and the Santa Fe and IC - big mainline railroading in the '40s/'50s. But given my space, I probably would do better with short line or narrow gauge HO or staying with the big railroads and going to N scale. But, as I say, I am too committed to the Santa Fe and IC to leave them
Your room does sound like a PERFECT size for narrow gauge...but then, I'm liable to say that about just about any size room. But if you want to stay with the AT&SF and also dabble in narrow gauge, modeling the area around Santa Fe, NM might interest you. The D&RGW's Chili Line interchanged there with the Santa Fe and New Mexico Central. I'm working on planning a free-lanced version of that scene myself. Of course, it's not the big time, mainline railroading you seem to like but rather the end of the AT&SF's quiet Santa Fe branch. But maybe you could model the branch from Lamy to Santa Fe and a bit of the Chili Line as well. That would allow you to model a junction with a busy mainline, a standard gauge branchline, and a terminal featuring interchanges between a major railroad's branch, a narrow gauge branch, and a down-on-its-luck standard gauge shortline (the NMC). I think with two decks, some selective compression, and hidden staging, that could be a fascinating layout scenically and operationally.
And it really is a great time to be in HOn3 - people always complained about the lack of quality locomotives and limited availability of rolling stock, but that has completely changed with the offerings of Blackstone, MMI, and Micro-Trains.
I really gave some serious thought to going narrow gauge. Of course I've ridden the C&T and D&S, and a couple of others and spent a few vacations in Chama and Durango. I've looked at a few of the On30 locos and cars and some of the HOn3 as well, and they are sure filled with character.
Buttttt, I've spent 50 years playing with the ATSF and IC, built up a nice library and more locos and rolling stock than I'll ever use in the process. And, the '40s-'50s are my favorite timeframe. So when push comes to shove, I just can't "change horses".
All that being said, I confess that if I were 10 or 20 years younger I might give the narrow gauge a try - but at 64 1/2, the change is more than I want to deal with. Ha, then again, you never know!
mobilman44Buttttt, I've spent 50 years playing with the ATSF and IC, built up a nice library and more locos and rolling stock than I'll ever use in the process. And, the '40s-'50s are my favorite timeframe.
Well, the ATSF interchanged with the D&RGW narrow gauge in Santa Fe until 1941 when the Chili Line was abandoned. Sooo...you could prototypically model both in the timeframe you like...not sure how you would work in the IC though.
Mr Mobilman44
Congrats, good luck, and keep us posted.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Hey, good luck with your redesign.
I have an around the walls shelf layout on hollow core doors in 15x19. I'm using 24 inch radii with somewhat eyeballed 7/16 in 14 (or so) easments. I run BLI 2-10-0, 4-8-2 and occasionally 2-10-4 and 4-4-4-4 with spectrum heavyweights and cetrailia smothsides. I can honestly say it doesn't look as bad as some may suggest. For the engines, it's not bad at all, and the varnish is acceptable to me. I think the key is the easments. Any easment helps, and makes the tight curve less noticaeable.
On a design note, I tink an "oval" is probably the way to go. That's what mine is, and I have several switching areas (three in one direction, two in the other) between yards. There's plenty to do, or they can just run. I have a "lift out" across the door that connects the yards, but operate as point to point. There's no staging at this point. I just put uotbound blocks on a yard track, then remove them manually and replace them with an inbound block.
I chose to keep the center of the room (about 10x14) as a useable den, and have a couch and entertainment system there. I could have probably put in a peninsula, but keeping the useadbe room was more valuable. I don't think you'll have that luxury, though. I was planning to build a garage/layout building, but that's been delayed due to insanely high construction costs. I'm toying with doubledecking, but so far just speculation.....
...Oh, I do have a walthers 14 section car, and it doesn't like the 24", even though the box says it will.It won't make it around once without binding and derailing. Not trackwork either, as it's not in the same spot.
I'd love to see your plan, can you post it here?
I think you are moving along. I will offer a comment that nothing is done until YOU are done.
Last week I declared that I will finish the Power Bus wiring, well, due to small town complications of hardware necessary to do the job right, it will be another week before any progress is made LOL.
Regarding the walthers heavyweights, I had a full train of 11 some cars at one time, they failed badly on the club layout recently (36 inch radius and huge switches etc) and thus they were sold off. All gone and good riddiance. I tinker with those durn cars to run right on my road.. a loop and to see them fall apart on the club road well... I go find another set. This time with 4 axle trucks which ride without binding so much like the picky 6 axles ones do.
Anyhoo enough about me.
You got plans! Great. Move em along one item at a time, be ready to go back and "pickyfix" anything that might bother you.
Good luck!