Hi,
My existing 11x15 HO layout is "surfaced" with 1/2 inch plywood with 1/8 inch cork overlay. Mainline trackage is spiked to regular cork roadbed, while yard and lesser trackage is spiked directly on the 1/8 inch cork overlay. I am partial to plywood, one reason is that I use the "cookie cutter" method to change grades to access lower level staging or upper level main lines with 2 percent grades.
After the Holidays, this 14 year railroad will be dismantled and a new one built in its place. I am considering using 5/8 ply (or whatever is the next thickest over 1/2 inch), and will continue to use the cookie cutter method.
BUT, it occurred to me that maybe 5/8 inch ply would not work so well, especially since I am going to increase the grades to a max of 2 1/2 percent. What are your thoughts on this???
Additional information: The layout room is climate controlled, Homosote and/or foam is not an option, and I tend to build "bullet proof" benchwork.
Thanks!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
You could even use 3/4" ply, but that is not necessary. The main consideration is what type of plywood are you using. CDX is the cheapest type - used for sheathing. Cabinet grade is the best. The letters stand for the surface grade of the plywood. A= smooth, no plugs, B= smooth with "football" shaped plugs, C= not very smooth but no voids, D= pretty rough with some exterior voids. The X rating means exterior glue. (try to get that info from some genius at Lowes or Home Cheapo!!) 1/2" is fine if it is supported every 16" or so, 5/8" is usually not available in the smoother surface grades, and still needs support every 16 to 20". 3/4" is available in the better grades, but check the price!! The other thing to watch is the wood species. Cabinet grades will usually be birch or oak, although cherry etc is available at much higher price than you need for a MRR. Birch is better than oak, as oak has a surface grain. Construction grades are usually douglas fir or yellow pine - AVOID THE PINE!!!!! Pine will warp, is harder to nail into, and is heXX on saw blades!!. If you choose 1/2" DF (doug fir) AC grade, you will not be sorry. from a retired carpenter/cabinetmaker!
mobilman44 My existing 11x15 HO layout is "surfaced" with 1/2 inch plywood with 1/8 inch cork overlay. Mainline trackage is spiked to regular cork roadbed, while yard and lesser trackage is spiked directly on the 1/8 inch cork overlay. I am partial to plywood, one reason is that I use the "cookie cutter" method to change grades to access lower level staging or upper level main lines with 2 percent grades.
Use what you're comfortable with. I'm using benchwork of heavy butt-joint construction with 3/4" plywood topped by sheets of 1" beaded styrofoam and I have almost no track noise. The only noise is from the metal wheels hitting the track joints.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
mobilman44 Additional information: The layout room is climate controlled, Homosote and/or foam is not an option, and I tend to build "bullet proof" benchwork.
Not a criticism, just curiosity. Why have you rejected foam as an option?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Nevermind--Dooh!
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Half inch cabinet grade, lose the cork surface. Use Woodland scenics inclines for your grades instead of trying to cookie cut the whole thing into a sort of franken erector set.
Oh and just use half inch or even one inch mainline risers to vary your ground cover. That cork must be expensive for all that big old table you had before.
You can still get 2 percent grades that you seem to like. You need about 16 feet of grade plus one or two feet at both ends for a total of 20 feet of track to make that grade climb 4 inches.
It's easier to do it on pure half inch than something approaching 3/4 inches.
I suspect that maybe the drumming of the wheels or perhaps other noise issues is a problem otherwise you would not have covered the layout with cork like a old 70's large car with that carpeted dashboard.
Dont misunderstand me. I would perfer to build benchwork with 3/4 oak and do it one time and have it last 50 years. Burn the stuff in hard times should the utilties fail. =) However I cannot. So I make do with a bit of door and 1/4 inch birch to hope for the best. So far so good. The 4 doors endured outside storage with moisture, ice, heat, temp swings from -20 to +124 for 3 years before they actually were built into the layout last year. Those were about an inch thick.
If I want a grade in the future? No problem Buy a set of woodland scenics incline set and drop em into place.. what? 14 dollars for one going up? (Or down?) Easy.
Finally but not last, your tools cutting ability will decide how thick you want your steak. One of my tools can get down to about 1.5 inches, and another down to two inches. After that? I got a 16 inch bar electric 12 amp Homelite chainsaw. And no Im not kidding.
Lou,
As usual you are very helpful. While I am aware of the different grades, the other information you gave was much needed. As I am only going to need 4/5 sheets, I would much rather spend more $$$ now than regret a cheap decision for the next umpteen years.
Thanks,
To clarify......
All surfaces are covered with 1/8 cork except for areas with mainline trackage (that uses regular roadbed) or areas covered with plaster or trees or whatever. When I built this layout in the early '90s, sheet cork was readily available here at a reasonable price. Not so today.
Hi!
No offense taken...... I reject Homosote because its difficult to get here in north Houston, and it can be difficult to work with (for me).
I reject foam because I'm old and set in my ways. Really, I have nothing against its use, but I like having a layout that I can walk on or whatever - which I've had to do a couple of times.
mobilman44 .., but I like having a layout that I can walk on or whatever - which I've had to do a couple of times. Thanks, Mobilman44
.., but I like having a layout that I can walk on or whatever - which I've had to do a couple of times.
That was my first thought as well, but not on the current layout. For my first one, I used 5/8" GIS (good on one side) to form a large slab surface, and then added layers of 1" extruded Dow blue foam. I could thereby stand and dance on my plywood while I needed to, and then as I layered the foam to make stacked hills and such, I was constrained to smaller areas that were still plywod. Takes some planning because you must also be able to lay and adjust tracks as you constrain yourself to places where you can stand.
My point is that you can do both. Build your plywood top and do what you must where you can, but don't discount the advantages of layered foam for terrain. My opinion, of course.
-Crandell
The Lowes store in Martinsburg, WV carries Aruco brand pine plywood in both 1/2" and 3/4" thickness. I believe that it's A/B or A/C grade. In any case, it's knot-free on one side and has filled knots on the other side. The 1/2" has 5 plies in contrast to the the other junk 1/2" plywood they carry that has only 4 plies and which is almost always bent and twisted. The 1/2" Aruco brand plywood that I've purchased so far has stayed flat, especially if you lay it out flat with weight on it and let it acclimate to your train room for a week or two. I would say that 1/2" plywood should be thick enough for your application especially if you support it on 12" to 16" centers. On my new N scale layout, I plan to use the Aruco 1/2" plywood with 2" blue extruded foam glued on top on "L" girder benchwork. I'll then use cork roadbed for the main line tracks.
Bob
Yes, I would certainly consider using foam to build up terrain (over a ply base), but suspect I'll stick with the plaster over screen/webbing I've used before many times. Of course I'm not at that point yet, so who knows what I'll do.
I'm big on planing, and at age 64 I realize this is probably my last layout. So while I have a good feel for all the methods and materials I'll use, I certainly will try (not easy) to keep an open mind for other ways and means.
ENJOY,
I would consider using cardboard strips (or newspaper and tape) rather than wire screen. Wire screen cuts hurt!! Plus it's easier to make changes later when you don't have to try to cut through wire.
I'd also look into Woodland Scenics risers, since you're going to build flat-top benchwork. Why cut out plywood to allow for rivers and valleys, when it's easier just to have all the track elevated a few inches off the benchwork?? Then you can have scenery go up or down from track level with ease.
They have a booklet and DVD that covers using their products (plus non-wire "hardshell" scenery) that you get from the LHS to check it out.
Woodland Scenics - Subterrain System
In the North Houston area, McCauley's on Aldine Bender carries Homasote. Also Clarks which is in the Heights area carries Homasote.
Extiger
I've used the nylon screening (not metal) on the existing layout and it worked fine. For risers and the like, I've got a very large selection of scrap 1x2, ply, etc. for this very purpose. My existing layout is full of retaining walls and some fairly nice rock castings, some of which should be reusable.
I've thought I might try out the plaster impregnated cloth stuff (forgot the brand name - probably Woodland Scenics), but I have a lot of time before any scenery gets put into place. I'm a real stickler on tracklaying & wiring, so until that is "bulletproof", I'm not thinking much about scenery.
Thanks for the advice, it is appreciated!
Etiger,
I've been to McCauleys for lots of other stuff (refurbishing my in-law's house) and never thought to ask about Homosote. The last time I checked for it - which was about 14 years ago - it was not readily available and the two stores that could get it didn't want to order it as I only needed a sheet or two. Funny, both went out of business since then!
The dow insulation foam is surprisingly strong and can be walked on. It also allows you 2 inches of base that you can dig into for terrain such as creeks etc.
Springfield PA
My room-size layout was built on an open grid framework (16" o/c) of kiln-dried #1 grade pine 1"x4". For the most part, roadbed is 3/4" firply for curves and some straights, and 1" pine ripped-to-width for the balance. I used a jigsaw to cut the curves from the first plywood sheet, starting at one end with a 30" minimum radius, and increasing by 2" with each subsequent cut. I used these as patterns by laying them loose atop the grid to determine what radius best suited each location, then cut up another sheet or two into the curve radii needed. In areas where there are multiple tracks, such as passing sidings or small yards, I used a sheet of plywood suitable to the situation, with yard and industrial track layed directly atop the plywood, some of which was 3/4", 5/8", or 1/2", as I had plenty of pieces left over after building my house. For grades (I have yet to build the second level of the layout, but the track on the grade to it is in place and useable - about 45' long at roughly 2.5%) I supported the roadbed on risers of scrap 1"x2" or anything else handy. It's very easy to add superelevation to the curves using this method, too. I used patching plaster over screen for most of the scenic landforms - changes are easy with a jigsaw. Most larger buildings are on plywood "building lots", on risers as appropriate to the terrain. For the second level of the layout, the plan is to use 3/8" sheathing plywood as a table-top on an open grid of 1"x2" select pine. Scenic relief will be either foam or plaster over screen. I've found that 3/8", properly supported, sufficient for shelving under the layout: it supports many tools and household items without sagging, and it is very easy to spike flex track directly to it. I have some in place on the layout, with no sagging over about 17 or 18 years.
Wayne
mobilman44 sheet cork was readily available here at a reasonable price. Not so tod
Mobilman
Drop by your local Hobby Lobby for some sheet cork, last time I checked it was priced pretty good.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Wayne,
You are the only other person I know that went thru the "trouble" to cut out curve templates. I still have mine from 14 years ago - from 18 inch to 36 inch radius. I used 1/4 inch good quality plywood, and they served me in track laying - and I'll certainly use them again.
I'll also use the 2x2 legs again, which worked very well and should do so a second time around.
mobilman44Wayne, You are the only other person I know that went thru the "trouble" to cut out curve templates.Mobilman44
You are the only other person I know that went thru the "trouble" to cut out curve templates.
Mine weren't actually templates. I set my minimum radius as 30", then, working from one end of a sheet of 3/4" plywood, simply made parallel cuts to give me a hunk each of 30", 32", 34" and-so-on radius roadbed. I then placed them where I needed curves, selecting the ones that look best for each situation, then cutting additional ones of the sizes needed from other sheets of plywood. I had no real trackplan with dimensions, so I wasn't constricted by such, rather letting the track "flow" where I thought it looked best. I used very little of the 30", with most of the curves at 34" or 36", although I did manage to work in a 48" "S"bend.
My main reason for cutting separate roadbed was to allow me to accommodate the various elevations to construct a partially double-decked layout, with all of the staging stacked in one location and the grade between levels as a visible part of the main line. The main line takes the form of a "Y", with one "arm" of the "Y" stacked atop the other. When completed, there'll be four levels of staging at the ends of the line - two main yards, and a siding or two representing industries or other connections.
In this LINK, the first photo shows the staging to the left: a single siding (interchange) at 36.5" above the floor, industrial sidings at 40", and the main lower staging at 44.5". The upper staging will be at about 59.5". If you look at the rest of the pictures, most of the line is on grades and/or curves, and different parts of a long-ish train can be going uphill and downhill at the same time and be stretched over multiple curves. The need to accomplish the elevation changes dictated the layout of the main line, and the width of the open grid benchwork its placement.
NICE WORK !!!!! Of course it isn't work, its satisfying fun at its best.
Your Cornerstone icing platform is notable, and it looks like you had 3 kits put together. I have the main kit and one add-on, and it gives a nice place to show off some Intermountain reefers. I also have the shelves under the layout with 3/8 inch ply, and that really gets stuff out of the way - but yet close at hand.
Question...... what operating system (DCC/DC) do you use, and what are your plus and minus about it. I currently run two MRC Controlmaster 20s, and am going to take the jump into DCC with 10 amps (combined) of Digitrax. That is a BIG step for this "good at most everything except electronics" model railroader! Wish me luck - although with the good folks on these MR forums I should do just fine.
Thanks for the kind words, Mobilman44. The icehouse in Dunnville is the Walthers one, with two extra platform kits, while all of the smaller ones and the big one at Lowbanks are scratchbuilt.
I currently am using a Controlmaster 20 with its accompanying walk-around throttle on a 30' tether. It's more than sufficient for my power needs, as most trains have only two or three locos, and I run only one train at a time. There is no power bus, although there is a #12 bus wire which connects all of the throttle jacks together. All rail joints are soldered. With the layout designed as a single-track secondary line, with most trains doing switching en route, and operating mostly solo, DCC would be superfluous. I do have passing sidings in all towns along the route, and they can be useful for holding trains to support sequential operation, but I generally prefer to use them as run-around tracks for the local trains as they service each town. If and when I get that second level built, I may divide the layout into three blocks, so that a second operator, when available, can be involved.
I also have some SCR throttles, also on long tethers, that I especially like for their fine speed control capabilities, but they don't put out enough power for heavy trains with multiple locos. I did buy a PWM throttle last year, which gives the speed control of the SCRs and the power throughput of the Controlmaster 20, but I'm having trouble hooking it up to allow me to switch easily between the three different control systems.
Good luck with your foray into DCC. For me, it offers nothing of use that I can't do more easily and cheaply with regular DC, and installing decoders would require that I remove weight from my locos to make room - definitely not an option with so many grades. I've never been a big fan of working lights and especially not of sound, and all of my locos run well in any combination. From what I've read, the hardest part of DCC will be to remember which buttons to push to give you which of the many features it offers, so you probably won't need to be "good at electronics'.
I use marine ply which never distorts and never will. Presumably it is quite impervious to damp and whilst you may say your pike is in a controlled atmosphere what happens when you move house? Are you going to move your sections in refrigerated etc lorries?
Ron Gager NMRA member Southshore Group Worthing Sussex
If I move? Easy. I pack up the DCC. Engines and rolling stock. Then the buildings and vehicles.
Then pick up all the track (Kato) and associated wiring.
Then pick up a chain saw carve the table to bits, cart it outside to the burn pile and pour desiel onto it and wait a day.
After the ashes are cold, go to the new home for good.
Sort of like what happens at end of life.
Rongager,
Glad you use marine plywood, but for my situation here, it is overkill. I take it you are in the UK, and that may certainly be best for your part of the world. Down here in south Texas, it is humid a lot, but inside my house the humidity ranges from 45 to 56 year round as most homes here have central A/C and heat. When I was in the oil bizzness I used to relocate every 3 or 4 years, but have managed to stay here since 1980 when I had this house built. Given I am now retired, the concern of moving the layout is non-existant. As an earlier poster said, if I had to move, the layout would have everything of value removed and then cut up for the trash.
ENJOY!!!!
I use 1 X 4 framing on 16inch centers covered with 3/8 plywood glued and drywall screwed together, all covered with 1inch foam board. I weigh 230 and can walk on it. I use cork road bed and caulk. Trains operate quietly. I cut my curved grades from the same 3/8 plywood since it is easier to bend.
In my humble opinion there's just no need for heavy plywood if you use good design for your framework and glue the top to it. I also used 1 X 3's in L configuration for the legs, glued for warp-free performance.
Besides, I have had 3 back operations and don't need the heavy lifting anymore.