This is my first time building a layout. I saw a magazine article somewhere that talked about building on foam. I am in the military, so having the layout being light weight for any possible move sounded like a good idea to me. Plus, building on the foam seemed like a good idea for ease of cutting and carving.
The layout I have started is using the pink 2" foam board as the base which is sitting on open framework. The track is laid on Woodland Scenic foam road bed. I was thinking that the foam road bed and the foam board for the base of the layout would result in a really quiet running layout.
It doesn't seem to have worked out that way.
I did not really notice how loud it was until I extended the layout with a "temporary" section that is basically a shelf made out of a section of 1/2" plywood and another section that is 3/4" MDF. I was surprised to find out that the track laid directtly on the scraps of wood is MUCH quieter than my main layout all built on foam.
Now, the 2" foam is just sitting on the framework that I built. The frame work is made from 3/4" plywood that I ripped to about 4". Basically, I made my own 1x4 material to make the framework. If you look under the layout, you will see rectangles of the supporting framework, with the pink foam board on top.
Should I have glued the foam to the framework?
Should I have some plywood sitting under the foam so none of the foam can be seen from below?
It's almost like the foam is the head of a drum and the frame work is helping to radiate the sound out into the room.
Thanks for the advice.
I would suggest that you place a layer of plywood under your 2" foam to damp out the sound transmission from the trains. The drum-head effect on sound transmission through the foam layer is apparently not uncommon when nothing is used to support the foam other than the framing of the benchwork. I'm in the process of building my benchwork for a N-scale layout. I plan to use 1/2" 5-ply plywood attached to riser of "L" girder benchwork to support 2" blue extruded foam insulation board. The foam insulation board will be attached to the plywood with latex caulk as has been described many time in this forum. I will then attach cork roadbed to the foam board with latex caulk. I'm sure you'll get additional advice on this problem from other readers of this forum.
Hope this helps,
Bob
I have read about using the foam as main surfaces and wood as a support only but never done it. My new section is 2" pink foam from Home Depot (tip if you can find foam that is damaged, they will give you a discount up to 75%) on 3/4 inch plywood. I used cork road bed and I can say there is no sound other than the engine DCC sound and some clicking of none perfect rail joints.
I would glue down the foam as well. How wide is the bench? Wider the more flex you get from the foam, and the more racket.
I would try ripping a braces that is + shape from plywood and install under the foam in the center. Will help cut down on the sound board effect and still keep it lite weight.
My only regret is I wished I had used 4 inch's of foam, it is so easy to work with.
By the way, what branch are you in? I was 18th Air Born out of Bragg, now retired. It was so long a go I wore a steel pot on my head and broke starch ever day?
ETS is the best Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I have this untested idea.
Glue noise insulating material under the layout. The kind of noise insulation that is used in automobiles.
Maybe I should have used cork road bed. It seems more commonly used than the WS foam roadbed.
My benchwork is made of sections that are 4 feet by 2 feet with a cross brace. It's a basic dog-bone layout, overall 16 feet long. The ends are 4x4 and are connected by 8 feet of 2 foot wide.
The foam is supported every 2 feet. I have not noticed any flexing of the foam board. I think this is the type of foam referred to as "extruded foam". It is NOT the type made from individual little foam balls. It's the Owens brand with the Pink Panther on it sold in 4x8 sheets at the big box store.
I will try slipping some scraps sections of plywood under a portion of the layout and see if it will dampen the noise. I wasn't sure if there was a standard building method that would prevent the sound from being radiated.
CudaKen, I am in the Navy. 17 years so far.
The cork won't help - I too was stunned at how loud my layout (basically the same construction as yours) is. This became an issue though, only when I added sound equipped locos.
Mine, at least, is a test - so I learned that I won't be doing this method in the future.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
First off, !
Second, as others have stated above, you may want to try placing some material on the bottom of the foam--even if just temporarily--to see if that works. If your analogy of the drum head is correct, then placing some type of sound deadener should work since the sound of a drum radiates downward. Jamie
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I'm a first time layout builder myself (if you discount the layout I "assisted" my father in building when I was 8) and I was experiencing the same problem. I did find a reasonable solution: I bought 2'x3' sheet of cork that I caulked over the foam and it reduced the drum effect SIGNIFICANTLY. I tried finding it at the big box stores, but they didn't have it. I ordered it online from Cork Direct at roughly 1.25/sq. foot all in with shipping.
It's an option to consider but I odn't know how far along yo uare in laying your track.
Ken--
My 24'x24' garage 'empire' is constructed of 2" extruded foam on 1x4" benchwork, and supported every 12" by cross-bracing. I noticed a lot of 'rumbling' when I was first running trains as I constructed the layout, but as I added ballast and scenery, for some strange reason, the 'rumbling' seemed to diminish. My layout is very heavily forested (I'm modeling the California Sierra Nevada mountains), so all I can think of is that the trees and underbrush have somehow contributed to 'soaking up' the sound.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'd hazard a guess Tom that it's not soaking up the sound, but instead the layers of plaster and glued materials have helped to solidify and seal the top of the underlying foam.
Not that it matters I guess, as the end result is the same.
Cheers!
Right now my layout is basically a large pink surface with all the track and road bed laid. I have not added ballast or started any land scaping. I am too far along to cover the entire top with cork. Thanks for the idea, though.
Tom: The extra weight due to the ballast and scenery might have added enough mass to the foam that it effectively prevents the foam from vibrating. Much like putting your hand on the top of a drum pretty effectively muffles the sound from it.
The sound is not really excessive. I did not notice it was "loud" until I had the "temporary" shelf section added. When the train leaves the shelf and enters the main layout, it is as if you flipped a switch to turn on the noise.
I have some pieces of peg board, 1/4" luan and some sheets of plywood laying around in my garage. I will experiment and see if putting something under the foam and on top of the framework will affect the sound at all. I have a roll of left over fiberglass insulation from when I insulated my garage. I might try putting that underneath to see if it has an effect. I am thinking it is a mass issue. The foam is so light weight that it can vibrate and transfer the sound. A material denser, would not have the same property.
I should try and locate the layout book I had gotten last year and read the magazine articles to see if they covered it at all. I am not exactly following a specific plan, so it is very likely that there are much better ways to do what I have done so far. This project is really for me to have some fun getting into modelling and getting a train set for my son to play with.
I glued my foam to the wood framework using yellow glue. I never thought it was noisy at all. The only 'noises' I heard when runnign trains were my metal wheels sssssssssssss'ing over the rails. None of these loud drumlike sounds others talk about - I don;t knwo what I did differently. I just build some square frames of 1x4's, with cross braces 2' apart - each 8 foot section had a crosspiece at each end plus three more evenly spaced. I used 2" pink foam, glues on top - totally on top, not recessed into the frame. Roadbed was WS foam, all roadbed and track fastened with latex caulk. No hard glues - the only hard glue was the yellow glue holding the foam to the wood, and in the joints of the wood frame - I glued it and then drove two deck screws in each joint.
We shall see what happens with my new layout. It will only have a couple small modules, that's all I have room for. I made one change, the front and rear pieces are 1x4 whiel the cross pieces are 1x3, so the foam will sit 1" recessed inside the front and rear framing members. And I will be using 2 layers of the 2" foam, so i can cut away the top layer and have below the tracks scenery. A test I did before constucting the last layout, using a section of foam supported on sawhorses, with one section of track on it, half on WS foam roadbed and half on cork, led me to the WS - it was quieter. There was some drumming with the basically unsupported foam - although it was not really objectionable. The fastened to wood framing foam was definitely quieter than loose foam.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Tonight I went out and played around a little. I had a piece of luan plywood that happened to be 2' x 4', so it would fit almost perfectly under part of the middle of my dog bone. It seemed like it made it a bit quieter, but maybe that was me "hoping" it would. That piece of plywood had a slight bow to it, so it actually made the foam to no longer sit flat. It I pushed down slightly with my hands to flaten the foam and plywood, then it did make it a bit quieter. Mainly what I hear is the metal wheels, as was mentioned above by someone else.
My track is fastened to the road bed with regular old white elmers. After reading some of the replies, I guess I should have used caulk instead. I guess it might get worse still once I put down the ballast. Oh well, lesson learned.
I located the book I had seen plans that used this foam board. It is "Basic Model Railroad Track Plans, Small Starter Layouts You Can Build" by Model Railroader Books. A quick glance at the plans on there that show them using foam did not specify having the foam on a sheet of plywood. One of the diagrams in the beginning intro section showed foam board glued to a hollow core door or plywood, but when I read the sections around that illustration, they did not really talk about fastening the foam board down or anything special to isolate noise.
I will continue to experiment with different ideas to see if I can make it quieter. The noise definitely is from the metal wheels. I have a couple TrainMan box cars with metal wheels, and they are definitely louder than a couple other cars I have that have plastic wheels. The "temporary" section built on plywood, though, sounds about the same with either plastic or the metal wheels.
I've got the same noise problem. Mine was built in 2x7 foot framed sections with three cross braces, then a sheet of Luan on top, then one inch blue builders foam on that. I am thinking that when I get all the wiring done and switch machines in and all, that I am going to try foam bracing underneath.
Since you used white glue to hold your track down, be careful when you ballast it. The water may loosen it up
(USN Ret.).
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Hmm, was thinkign this is maybe a different between the pink and blue foam, but then I looked back and the OP has pink. Around here, Home Depot has pink and Lowes has blue, and they seem slightly different in more than just color. They can't be otherwise exactly identical, or Dow and Owens-Corning would be fighting each other over who copied the other's formula. Also, at least the pink stuff comes in varying densities. If you look at the Owens-Corning web site you'll see the various ones listed - some are strong enough that you probably could stand on it. What's at the Home Depot is usually the middle stuff, the Foamular 250. If purchased elsewhere it might be the 150 or 350, and that might make a difference in the sound.
My layout is 2-inch pink foam glued to the 1x3 framework below with latex caulk. The 1x3's are spaced at 16 inches. I don't think it's noisy at all.
The light, unscenicked, unglued foam is probably acting like a speaker cone. The vibrations from the trains are passed through the track and roadbed, and they "drive" the foam board. Gluing it to the frame should help, because it will reduce the ability of the foam to vibrate by itself. Adding structures and scenery adds weight "coupled" to the foam, which also makes it harder for the train noise to drive it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I think this weekend I will get out the caulk gun and glue the foam down to the benchwork to see if that solves my issue. Adding the scenery and structures will be a while for me still, though. My layout is still pretty light weight. All I really have so far is the foam, road bed and track. I still have some buildings from a set my dad built me as a kid, that I have just sat around here and there. They will not be providing much weight.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
MisterBeasley My layout is 2-inch pink foam glued to the 1x3 framework below with latex caulk. The 1x3's are spaced at 16 inches. I don't think it's noisy at all. The light, unscenicked, unglued foam is probably acting like a speaker cone. The vibrations from the trains are passed through the track and roadbed, and they "drive" the foam board. Gluing it to the frame should help, because it will reduce the ability of the foam to vibrate by itself. Adding structures and scenery adds weight "coupled" to the foam, which also makes it harder for the train noise to drive it.
Gluing your foam to adjacent materials using acrylic latex caulk will definitely deaden sound. The reason is that the gobs of caulk will act like "shock absorbers" of a dual density between the foam and the bench frame. It is/was the practice in some cases to place small rubber plugs between the fins of air-cooled engines because otherwise the fins pinged and rang noisily as the engine ran. The caulk should have the same effect.
If you have alread attached the foam to your framework you might try gluing strips of carpet padding ( either rebond or new foam ) to the underside of whatever foam remains exposed between your frame members.. 3M spray glue (check to see if it is compatable with foam) like headliner glue sold at Auto parts stores should work. Check at the local carpet store- installers always have bags of scraps they take away from the job site they have to throw away.
I once caught a train in my pajama's. How it got in my pajama's I'll never know... (sorry, Groucho)
ken_23434 Tom: The extra weight due to the ballast and scenery might have added enough mass to the foam that it effectively prevents the foam from vibrating. Much like putting your hand on the top of a drum pretty effectively muffles the sound from it.
It is definitely a case of mass AND rigidity. Making the base stiffer by glueing (don't just place - fasten) it to plywood makes it harder to create/sustain vibrations. The sound will be quieter.
Adding mass also absorbs energy (lessening the vibrations) but has the additional effect of changing the resonant frequency of the material away from the vibration rate of the wheels passing over the track. Resonance is an amazing thing but too far off topic to discuss here.
The idea of gluing some automotive sound deading sheets to the underside might be a good one.
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
Last weekend I glued the foam to the plywood benchwork and that did not seem to make a difference in the sound.
This week I was playing around with weathering my track (I have used Atlas code 100 flex) and haven't worried about the sound issue. The track weathering turned out better than I hoped (first layout I am working on) and I started to ballast some of the track to have a section of track "finished" so I would better see how it will all eventually turn out.
Well, to my surprise that 4 foot section of track is noticably quieter than the unballasted track. I am using WS medium ballast and I used dilluted Elmers Craft Bond white glue to glue it down. The Craft Bond bottle stated it would "remain flexible" when dry. The ballast is slightly "springy". I am not sure if that is the glue, the WS Foam road bed or a combination of the two.
I finished up ballasting the first section about midnight last night and I came out to my train room about 10 this morning with my son. That is when I noticed the ballast felt springy. I was worried that the Craft Bond wasn't meant to be thinned or that it just dried that way. It definitely is holding the ballast in place and it is not coming loose.
One thing I have done that I saw in a magazine quite a while ago was to space the supporting grid in odd increments like 10.5", then 13.5", then 11" etc instead of making them all 12" spacing for example so the sound waves will not reinforce themselves. Hard to say how much that affected things vs having a plywood subroadbed but every bit helps.
Bruce
I dunno, I was pretty accurate when measuring my benchwork and building the sections. Mine all had 2' spacing between the cross braces, and I was pretty careful in measuring and marking the location before drilling pilot holes and screwing the braces in. On a test piece of foam I had, not attached to anything, just something I set across a pair of sawhorses, i noticed it got a LOT quieter once I added ballast.
Great info for those of us not using foam,but I live in the desert boonies of So-Cal.I am unable to locate a H.D. or a Lowes that has anything other than white foam ??Can anyone tell me where to buy in So-Cal? Also,if you are a real guru,howbout a source to pick up some Homosote,another victim of the big box era.
Here in the Virginia Beach area, the only place I know of to get homosote is at an actual lumber yard. Not to be confused with the big box stores. The lumber yards are where your local woodworker would get his raw materials. Basically, the sell wood only. No kitchen appliances, no tools etc... Big warehouses full of rough sawn lumber and many varieties of plywood. You will find that the plywood there might even be cheaper than the big box store, or at least comparable in price, but MUCH better in quality.
Charlie - I live in Long Beach and could not find Homosote but did get what I think is called 1/2" Building Board at Lowes and it seems fine as a base. About $10/4x8' piece.
As to Foam, I was in Bishop a few months ago and found blue foam at a building supply store on Main St., about $44/4x8' sheet. As opposed to the only place I know in So. Cal, in Burbank that I think charges ~$40/2x8' sheet for 2" blue foam. Their number is 818-558-5717. That is what I know for our area, but I am heading for Seattle next week and intend to stock whatever I can get in my wife's Camry.