I haven't built a layout since the 1970's and as can be expected, things have changed--new ideas, new products, etc. I'm 60 miles from a LHS or club, so I have rely on these forums to get back to speed. So here's a few things that are perplexing me. For where it matters, I'm starting a new and last layout in HOn3 with hand laid and flex ME track and Fast-tracks turnouts. Scenery will be hardshell mountains and mining--might try a little bit of foam for minor shapes.
First off- nobody mentions the weathering solutions (such as marketed by ME) for weathering rail. I'm aware of the problems of working with the 'pre-weathered' flex track from ME, so this is about coloring after its laid down. Since ties and rail are not the same color (wood doesn't rust), two color paint jobs can be quite slow and tedious. I am assuming that the solutions are a chemical reaction on the rail (such as gun bluing or anodizing) so why not paint/stain the ties before hand laying the track or using the flex and then 'weather' the rails with brush, air brush, or even a q-tip just before ballasting. If my assumption is correct, the fluid should not color the surrounding or adjacent parts so no need for the tedious brush work or extensive masking.
Many people are using latex chalk for affixing flex-track to the bench work. I have squeezed many a tube of chalk in my day and I cannot think of one that I would want to use for this purpose due to slow drying, messy, inability for reactivation, difficult to color if you use the wrong kind and the stuff doesn't come in dark earth tones. What am I missing here? What brand names and type of chalk are you using (cheap pure latex/with silicone or butyl/tub and tile/kitchen/exterior/interior/color of tube/squeeze or gun tube?
The canned expandable foam used for filling cracks and holes in your house. Has anyone found a good use for it on the layout? I've seen a couple layouts where they attempted to make rocks and they looked like----well, they looked like expanded foam rocks!! One guy said you could probably use it for fake doggy doo-doo if you got the paint job just right---sorry. The stuff is so sticky and I haven't found a solvent for tools(like water or light oil for working on soft plaster). One thing that I have considered is finding a release agent for latex or rubber rock molds but so far I haven't gotten enough confidence to gamble a $6-$8 rock mold. Any ideas on this stuff?
Thirty years ago we had casting plaster and hydrocal-PERIOD!! Now we have hydrocal white, B-11, ultra-cal, light weight,etc. etc., Ad Nauseum. I did find casting plaster at Hobby Lobby for about a dollar a pound----outrageous. These other products are about $11-$13/50 lb bag at the not so local US Gypsum dealer, which is fine. Kinda funny-- plaster used to be about $6/50 lbs and hydrocal was more than twice that price--now about the same and hydrocal hasn't gone up at all. Anyway, we used to mix the dry plaster and hydrocal about one part hydrocal to 3 or 4 parts casting plaster and got about a 45 minute work life and 24 hour full cure time and a very strong hardshell with about 3-4 layers of newsprint or paper towel. the straight plaster mix was more like 5-8 minute work life and a far more brittle shell. So, what is the modern way to do this ? The US Gypum dealer 'thought' that one of his customers was using straight Ultracal for making hard shell. I prefer to buy the big bag(s) and be done with it.
Thanks for your indulgence, Steve
Steve I've used the expanding foam-in-a-can and I swear by it. It's brilliant stuff - strong and lightweight. Totally unrealistic until you carve it though.
When you carve it, it looks like a sponge so I covered mine with plaster and clay. It takes paint well and it's very easy to plant trees in it.
I like to paint all over my rails with brown-grey-rust colours [it varies] then I paint the ties with grey. I use tube acrylics. When it's dry I take a scrap of MDF or masonite and clean the paint from the top of the rails.
Not trying to sound like an expert here - it's just what I do.
Mike
Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0
I use the caulk method for laying track. I use the cheapest stuff I can find, DAP something or other. Clear. And it is really not messy at all, and quick. It is tacky enough that as soon as you spread it out, it will hold cork or track fairly well. I use push pins to hold the track on curves until it has set up.
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
durango wrote: I haven't built a layout since the 1970's and as can be expected, things have changed--new ideas, new products, etc. I'm 60 miles from a LHS or club, so I have rely on these forums to get back to speed. So here's a few things that are perplexing me. For where it matters, I'm starting a new and last layout in HOn3 with hand laid and flex ME track and Fast-tracks turnouts. Scenery will be hardshell mountains and mining--might try a little bit of foam for minor shapes.First off- nobody mentions the weathering solutions (such as marketed by ME) for weathering rail. I'm aware of the problems of working with the 'pre-weathered' flex track from ME, so this is about coloring after its laid down. Since ties and rail are not the same color (wood doesn't rust), two color paint jobs can be quite slow and tedious. I am assuming that the solutions are a chemical reaction on the rail (such as gun bluing or anodizing) so why not paint/stain the ties before hand laying the track or using the flex and then 'weather' the rails with brush, air brush, or even a q-tip just before ballasting. If my assumption is correct, the fluid should not color the surrounding or adjacent parts so no need for the tedious brush work or extensive masking. Many people are using latex chalk for affixing flex-track to the bench work. I have squeezed many a tube of chalk in my day and I cannot think of one that I would want to use for this purpose due to slow drying, messy, inability for reactivation, difficult to color if you use the wrong kind and the stuff doesn't come in dark earth tones. What am I missing here? What brand names and type of chalk are you using (cheap pure latex/with silicone or butyl/tub and tile/kitchen/exterior/interior/color of tube/squeeze or gun tube?The canned expandable foam used for filling cracks and holes in your house. Has anyone found a good use for it on the layout? I've seen a couple layouts where they attempted to make rocks and they looked like----well, they looked like expanded foam rocks!! One guy said you could probably use it for fake doggy doo-doo if you got the paint job just right---sorry. The stuff is so sticky and I haven't found a solvent for tools(like water or light oil for working on soft plaster). One thing that I have considered is finding a release agent for latex or rubber rock molds but so far I haven't gotten enough confidence to gamble a $6-$8 rock mold. Any ideas on this stuff?Thirty years ago we had casting plaster and hydrocal-PERIOD!! Now we have hydrocal white, B-11, ultra-cal, light weight,etc. etc., Ad Nauseum. I did find casting plaster at Hobby Lobby for about a dollar a pound----outrageous. These other products are about $11-$13/50 lb bag at the not so local US Gypsum dealer, which is fine. Kinda funny-- plaster used to be about $6/50 lbs and hydrocal was more than twice that price--now about the same and hydrocal hasn't gone up at all. Anyway, we used to mix the dry plaster and hydrocal about one part hydrocal to 3 or 4 parts casting plaster and got about a 45 minute work life and 24 hour full cure time and a very strong hardshell with about 3-4 layers of newsprint or paper towel. the straight plaster mix was more like 5-8 minute work life and a far more brittle shell. So, what is the modern way to do this ? The US Gypum dealer 'thought' that one of his customers was using straight Ultracal for making hard shell. I prefer to buy the big bag(s) and be done with it.Thanks for your indulgence, Steve
durango.
back to the hobby.
When you use the latex CAULK, not chaulk, you just lay a thin bead of the caulk down the centre-line of your track and spread it out thinly to the edge of where your roadbed will be located. Weight your roadbed after you have them in place and let them cure in place for two or three days with the weights on them. After the caulk has set securely, carefully sand the tops of the roadbed LEVEL and after vaccuming up the dust, start to lay your track. Again, use a very small bead and spread it thinly to the edges of your tie width and weight the track down. When you ballast your track later, it will cover any caulk that is showing. IF you have spread it carefully.
Good luck.
Blue Flamer.
Welcome aboard!
I, too, use latex caulk for all my track and roadbed construction/fastening needs (except rail to wood ties.) I have found it in limestone grey (close enough to ballast color as makes no difference,) dark green and mud brown at my local big box hardware and home improvement centers. [I have also found it in baby blue, 'godawful' green (think hospital gown color) and shocking pink.] So far, the one time I had to 'release' it, all it took was a few minutes and a gentle touch with a drywall knife. The plastic-tie flex cleaned up with some gentle thumb-rubbing.
So far I haven't laid any rail that will have to be weathered - all to-be-hidden track. Once I surface into the visible world I expect to brush-paint the rails after spraying the (concrete) ties to kill the plastic sheen. Wood ties will be individually brush painted to get a more accurate variation - not every tie is the same color. An airbrush will supply the oil streaks left by DMUs, EMUs and catenary motors with leaky seals, and the crushed silica left behind by heavy use of locomotive traction sand.
I have used hardshell in the past. The jury hasn't been called yet for scenery construction on this layout.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If you have been out of the hobby that long, one of the best investments you can make is to get Dave Frary's scenery book called Water Soluble Scenery. It has all the tips and recipes for just about everything being used now days. If I recall right, scenery in the 70's was Zip texture. It has all changed now.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Steve, I as well say welcome back to a great and sometimes a pain in the caboose hobby!
I am new to this hobby, all most 3 years now and I love foam! I have never worked plaster and at this point see no real reason to. If I where to try plaster it would be for small rock out coping's only.
My new section is plywood base, and has a 2 inch foam top. That way you can carve ditches, gully's and rivers. Here is the section I am working on now.
On laying the roadbed, I traces out the track and then use latex chalk to hold the rail bed in places. Takes about a hours dry.
When I lay the rails I use just spikes to hold down the track. Many will tell you the spikes will not hold when nailed in to cork on top of foam, my has! In the one picture you will see plants next to the layout. That was last fall. New section has well over 400 hours on it (I work slow) and only 1 spike has pulled out! I do add extra spike and holds around turns. I have read when you add ballast the glue will hold the track down by it self.
Back to the foam, when I am adding foam to the bench top or the mountain (it will be 12 inches tall when done) I use hot glue and chalk at the same time. Chalk is to be safe, all the foam can be picked up and lifted off the bench.
Reason I use the hot glue? It sets up with in 5 minutes so I can start carving the foam.
If you want to add a small hill and if after you installed it and there is a small gap, use latex chalk to fill the gap.
On tress, I have no idea what you used back then. If they did not have super tress then, you will love them.
Hope I was of a little help.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Hi Again-
Thanks to all who have responded and for the really nice photos. However, most of my direct questions were side-stepped, so I'll try again:
1. Has anybody used the weathering solutions on rail and what are your experiences--good or bad?
2. Has anybody used the canned foam in a latex/rubber mold? What kind of release agent did you use?
3. For those still using hardshell scenery, what are you using for plaster (brands, product names, etc.)?
Thanks Again, Steve
I use caulk for track adn roadbed, and I found like a million other uses for it as well. Iuse the cheapest kind I can find, in clear. It comes out white, but dries clear, so it's really easy to know whan it's fully cured. It doesn;t take that long - overnight is plenty - but it's also tacky right from the start. The trick when using it with track and roadbed is to lay a VERY small bead and spread it out. The marks on the nozzle where you're suppsoed to cut it off when using it for 'normal' caulking duties? WAY too big. I use my rail nipper to cut it just far enough down that htere's an opening. To pierce the foil inside, I used a piece of #18/20 solid wire to poke through it - this size wire barely fits through the hole at the tip - that's how small you want it. Rememebr, it comes out white - well, if you draw guid lines on your subroadbed for the roadbed, after you spread the caulk you should be able to still see the pencil lines. If not, you used too much. It's tacky right away, but you can still slide things around to line them up. I used pushpins to hold the roadbed until the caulk sets up. Same thing with the track. If the caulk squished up between the ties, you used WAY too much. I had no problems removing track after the caulk set up. I was able to reuse the track. Peeling Woodland Scenics foam roadbed off the extruded foam base didn't go as well, the roeadbed was not reusable, but it was still fairly easy to remove with a putty knife. One $1.19 tube of caulk laid all the roadbed AND track on my 8x12 double track layout. And it goes fast - one night i put down an entire loop of roadbed, and by the time I got back around to where I started, it was set enough that I could start putting down the track on top.
Another use I foudn was for mounting Tortoise switch motors. I WAS cutting a square and dropping them in from the top. For the heck of it I tried gluing it to the bottom of the insualtion foam with caulk. I had to hold it in place for about 5 minutes before it wouldn;t fall off under it's own weight - plenty of time to align it if I was actually connecting it to a turnout. The next day when I tested it - it didn;t budge. It took a LOT of force to break it loose.
Cheap, latex only caulk is what you want. No fancy silicone stuff, it's not needed and there may be issues with it taking paint or interacting with the plastics used in the track. I used clear, black or dark brown would work too. White is probably not a good idea because if there are any gaps in the ballast or whatever, it will be very obvious when the white shows through.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Steve: I'm in the hardshell camp. I used cardboard strips, hot glued to form basic shapes. I covered them with plaster cloth, and then used a mix of Scuptamold and Gypsolite/Structolite for the final terrain. Here's an in process photo showing the different layers.
durango However, most of my direct questions were side-stepped, so I'll try again:3. For those still using hardshell scenery, what are you using for plaster (brands, product names, etc.)? Thanks Again, Steve
However, most of my direct questions were side-stepped, so I'll try again:
I can answer that one for you Steve. Structolite. (Gypsolite is the same thing). Cheap, comes in large bags, long open time, nice gritty texture, can be worked and smoothed, strong and brown or gray in color - not stark white. Try it , you;ll love it.
Karl
PS: It works over strips, foam, real rock. wood, etc. Just wet any porous surface a bit before applying.
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
Steve,
There are still many of us out there using the old methods. I personally use straight, good old fashioned, Hydrocal in the 50 LB bags from the lumberyard. Paper towels dipped to form the hardshell and cast or handcarved for the rock faces. I like the strength, fine detail and texture of hydrocal. Most of my friends use a combination of hydrocal and various casting/dental plasters that they buy in bulk.
For a more modern approach, you might check out the foam/mold system that Bragdon Enterprises offers. Portland area modeler Tom Miller used it on his new layout with spectacular results (check recent Gazettes for photos).
I also still use homasote and spikes, even with flex track. Not super happy with it but haven't found easier, better alternatives. Most of my friends use homasote as well (we all grumble about it)
Haven't used the rail weathering solution but have heard good things from those who have. Have used "Blacken It" on metal kits with good results.
Not a fan of foam for lots of reasons, so I have no experience to offer you in this area.
Welcome back to the hobby...Lots of stuff has changed, some things remain the same. To me, the advent of super trees, silflour grass, laser kits, Kadee 58's/Sergents, DCC, Fastracks, CPFLs, great running highly - detailed plastic locos/rolling stock and other stuff is where the hobby has taken off over the past twenty five years....
BTW: As you probably know, Blackstone has changed the scene in HOn3 by offering highly detailed, plastic RTR rolling stock including a beautiful K-27 (diecast w/plastic details) at affordable prices..
If you are not a subscriber to the Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazzette, I recommend it for all things narrow gauge.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
durango Hi Again- Thanks to all who have responded and for the really nice photos. However, most of my direct questions were side-stepped, so I'll try again: 1. Has anybody used the weathering solutions on rail and what are your experiences--good or bad? 2. Has anybody used the canned foam in a latex/rubber mold? What kind of release agent did you use? 3. For those still using hardshell scenery, what are you using for plaster (brands, product names, etc.)? Thanks Again, Steve
1. No. I paint the sides of the rail.
2. Not the spray foam in a can. I have used expanding foam that you had to mix then pour in the mold. Results were OK, but not like plaster. Had quite a few bubble type holes. What worked better was to tint the foam black which resulted in a gray that was not objectionable. Check out the Smooth-On web site for foam and mold releases. I don't recall what I used. Now having said that, I wouldn't use it again. Not worth the trouble.
3. I used hardshell on my last layout. Woven cardboard strips, plaster soaked paper towels draped over the webbing, and painted on casting plaster over that. I have used Hydracal and casting plaster. The Hydracal is stronger and lighter, but the casting plaster worked OK too.
I am now using foam board and ground goop. Cast plaster for rock work.
durangoHi Again- Thanks to all who have responded and for the really nice photos. However, most of my direct questions were side-stepped, so I'll try again: 1. Has anybody used the weathering solutions on rail and what are your experiences--good or bad? 2. Has anybody used the canned foam in a latex/rubber mold? What kind of release agent did you use? 3. For those still using hardshell scenery, what are you using for plaster (brands, product names, etc.)? Thanks Again, Steve
1. I tried some of the weathering stuff, both Blacken It and Hobby Black, but I found that it works best when the rail is free of oil and completely un-oxidised - definitely too much trouble to use on flex, although pre-treating rail for handlaying should work well. I brush painted all of my rail (flex track).
2. Never used the foam nor a rock mould.
3. My layout was done using Durabond 90 patching plaster over screen, both fibreglass and aluminum. Durabond is a product of Canada Gypsum, but I believe that it's also made by U.S. Gypsum. Up here, it's sold in 33lb. bags. The "90" in the name refers to the setting time, in minutes, and it's also available in other setting times - I think 20 minutes is the fastest. When fully cured, it's extremely hard and strong - I used it for the "water" in the scenes below, too, and even placing the camera directly atop it causes no damage. To colour it, I used cheap interior latex house paint, thinned about 50% with water and applied with a 3" brush. The "water" colours were done with full-strength paint and coated with water-based clear gloss urethane. I also cast the bridge piers and abutments, using homemade moulds, with Durabond.
4. I layed all of my flextrack with Atlas track nails, pushed into the plywood roadbed with pliers. As you can tell, pretty much "old school" tried and true methods, and I'm satisfied with the results.
Here's a section of the layout that's yet to be sceniced - those "mountains" will, hopefully, become tree-covered "hills", with much of the bridges also obscured by trees and underbrush, and, of course, some "water" in the riverbed.
Wayne
Doctor Wayne, you do incredibly beautiful work (well-presented by your photography)! Regarding the water: did you produce those gentle rolling swells and the few ripples and wakes at the abutments with the Durabond or the urethane?
Thank you for the kind words, dante. The ripples and waves were all done in the Durabond - here's a LINK with some pictures and more information in Posts 11, 32, and 36.
You may take the cake for the most realistic water.
Absolutely, that is without a doubt the finest 'water' I have ever seen. That river actualyl looks liek it's flowing under the bridge, with the gentle swells and the little bit kicked up against the bridge pier. And then the lake, totally real looking swells and not jsut a duplicate of the flowing river. Wow.
OK, so good I had to say it twice I guess. Hmm, no delete option anymore.
Hi Wayne: I'd like to add my kudos to you for those outstanding scenes. Truly great work!
Wow! Thank you all for the very kind and generous comments, although I see a lot of outstanding work in this thread. With so many techniques from which to choose, there should be a method here to suit just about anybody's tastes and/or budget.
Edit: Randy, there should be a "DELETE" button between "REPLY" and "EDIT", at the upper right in each of your posts.