I found the above route map on page 11 in "The New York Connecting Railroad: Long Island's Other Railroad" by Robert C. Sturm and William G. Thom. It contains everything I was looking for on my layout. Just look at the map and you'll see it includs car float service (Greenville, NJ tro Bar Ridge, NY), several yards (Bay Ridge, East New York, Fresh Pond Junction, Sunnyside, Sunnyside Junction and Oak Point), opportunities for serving industry (fictional of course but based on what used to be there) and even a chance to reproduce a selectively compressed Hell Gate Bridge should I choose that. Of course if I add a second level to my basic benchwork I could possibly run beyond Oak Point as well.
I've been looking for this for months. And to think that I've had this book on my to read pile for a few months now, without ever thinking it contained the solution to getting almost everything that I wanted to include on my layout.
Above you'll find my benchwork plan in it's current form (no upper deck yet). If you look at the right side you'll notice that there is addequate room for car float operations and for a yard. There is also an place for most of the interchanges on this level. I may have to chnage the locations of certain things you'll se on the map above But I think most of it will fit on one level But to do justice I'll really need a second one and there is the rub. To add that second level, Ill need a helix and that helix would need to lift my N-Scale trains 15 to 18 inches inches. Even with 3% grade that is going to swallow alot of track not to mention how long my trains will be out of sight. Now I've never built a helix before and I really can see any solution that doesn't make use of one.
Irv
I think it's a great idea!
I'm thinking, though, that you could model this without the helix. I don't think the Pennsylvania or LIRR ran through Penn Station, at least not on to each other's tracks as the drawing suggests. So, if you put New Jersey on one level and New York on the other, then you could model both Penn Station terminals on two different levels. (I don't know. Maybe they were on two different levels in the prototype.) The only other connection is the car float, and if you model a terminal on each level, you can use a hand-carried float to transfer traffic between them.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Maybe I'm reading the map wrong, but it looks like the New York Connecting RR is only between Oak Point (New Haven?) and Fresh Pond Junction (LIRR) going Northeast/Southwest and connects to the PRR just East of Sunnyside yard. I would assume that while there are trachage rights involved, they wouldn't extend much farther than the yards at Sunnyside and Fresh Pond Junction (if at all)... couldn't say the first thing about Oak Point.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
corsair7 wrote:I think most of it will fit on one level But to do justice I'll really need a second one and there is the rub. To add that second level, Ill need a helix and that helix would need to lift my N-Scale trains 15 to 18 inches inches.
I think most of it will fit on one level But to do justice I'll really need a second one and there is the rub. To add that second level, Ill need a helix and that helix would need to lift my N-Scale trains 15 to 18 inches inches.
Dittos on the helix.
I'm planning a 2-track Pennsy N Scale helix on the Conemaugh Road & Traction where the Pennsy will interchange & surround the interurban on the first level. Plans are to dedicate up to a 36" width for a corner helix in a room slightly smaller than your room size.
Here's prototype inspiration at Gallitzin's Tunnel Hill for the scenery top of the PRR helix:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/gallitzin.html
You have really got a neat prototype that can be point-to-point and/or also include a continuous running option. A helix does add a lot of planning effort, as well as, the designing of interchanges with Class I railroad(s).
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
The float docks at Bay Ridge were operated by the NY,NH & H RR to bring freight traffic from the south and west via the PRR up to the classification yards at Cedar Hill in New Haven, CT. The entire trackage from the float docks to the Hell Gate bridge and beyond to New Haven was electrified with 11,000 V catenary. Motive power was 3 or 4 EF-1 box cab electrics and in later years the monster EF-3 streamlined electrics. Trains could contain as many as 150 cars. I believe there were six tracks over the bridge and up to New Rochelle, NY.
The Pennsy did run through Penn Station and reached New Haven via the same trackage over the Hell Gate Bridge. Famous PRR Washington/Boston (the Federal and the Senator among them)through trains used that connection and many NH trains originated and returned there as well.
The car float operation at Oak Point was also operated by the New Haven and transferred freight around Manhattan island and up to float docks on the Hudson River's Jersey shore to connect to both the Erie and D,L & W for wesbound traffic.
This would be a huge underatking for such a small space. It could be done with hidden staging return loops simulating New Haven where both the freight and passenger trains could be staged. Another hidden staging loop could simulate Penn Station after the East River tunnel portal. Passenger trains would be run through in oth directions on the center mainline tracks with the freights plodding along on the outer tracks.
Freights would have to be originated with traffic off the car floats and delivered back to them But could share the New Haven staging if you built to accomodate them.
MisterBeasley wrote: I think it's a great idea!I'm thinking, though, that you could model this without the helix. I don't think the Pennsylvania or LIRR ran through Penn Station, at least not on to each other's tracks as the drawing suggests. So, if you put New Jersey on one level and New York on the other, then you could model both Penn Station terminals on two different levels. (I don't know. Maybe they were on two different levels in the prototype.) The only other connection is the car float, and if you model a terminal on each level, you can use a hand-carried float to transfer traffic between them.
At tis point I don't intend to model New Jersey. But both the Pennsy and LIRR ran into Penn Station and on to Sunnyside yard. Sunnyside used to have two sides. One side was strictly freight and the other strictly passenger. Most freights did not run thru Penn Station and when they did it was only at night when passenger service was minimal. Most of the freight came into the city either thru car floats or came down from the New Haven or New York Central connections.
There was a trime when the car floats handled 1,000 railroad cars a day and that wasn't all that long ago. It's much reduced today and that accounts for why NYC streets and highways are filled with trucks of all sizes. I understand the City is tryting to reverse that trend. If it happens it'll be because fuel is so expensive and not because the City wants it.
NeO6874 wrote: Maybe I'm reading the map wrong, but it looks like the New York Connecting RR is only between Oak Point (New Haven?) and Fresh Pond Junction (LIRR) going Northeast/Southwest and connects to the PRR just East of Sunnyside yard. I would assume that while there are trachage rights involved, they wouldn't extend much farther than the yards at Sunnyside and Fresh Pond Junction (if at all)... couldn't say the first thing about Oak Point.
You are reading it correctly. the rest of the route from Fresh Pond Junction to Bay Ridge was run on LIRR tracks as the map also shows. I intend to model the whole route but not as any railroad other than Conrail since under my thesis the merger with CSX never happened nor was any part pf the route ever spun off either.
From my reading, the New York Connecting Railroad was jointly owned by the Pennsy and New Haven with the New Haven actually operating it.
I am modeling the Conrail era so I don't really have to deal with all those pre 1976 railroads. All my passenger trains will be Amtrak as well. The main part of the track plan will start in Bay Ridge with the car float operation and follow the line to Oak Point. I won't be doing car floats to Manhattan but I will have my Amtrak trains run from Sunnyside yard up to Oak Point as well. At this point I don't know how I'll handle staging to and from Penn Station but I'll figure it out at some point.
MisterBeasley wrote:Was the Pennsy line into Penn Station electrified? I'm wondering if GG-1's ever came in there.
It probably was electrified although I don't see any evidence of that today. However, it could have a been a third rail type of operation. AS for GG-1s in Penn Station, it would have made sense since they ran thruout the Northeast Corridor.
Ah, then I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were going to model the NY Connecting RR... oops.
anyway -- good luck with that project . We expect progress pics
wyomingrailfan wrote:Geez, makes you think they designed it just designed it to be modeled!
Sure looks that way. And the more I look at the more I am covinced I made the right choice.
NeO6874 wrote: Ah, then I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were going to model the NY Connecting RR... oops. anyway -- good luck with that project . We expect progress pics
The New York Connecting Railroad was built to take advantage of the tracks that already existed from Bay Ridge to Fresh Pond Junction. So they just extended them to Oak Point. It was done to cut down on the time it took to ferry a string of cars by water from 10 hours to one. In addition there was the fact that barge traffic thru Hell Gate was a problem especially if the barge got caught in the tidal currents. There was a reason it is called Hell Gate.
Was the Pennsy line into Penn Station electrified? I'm wondering if GG-1's ever came in there.
Yes it was electrified throughout. GG-1s did run through to New Haven under PC but not under New Haven operation. Engines were changed to New Haven's EP-4s which were steam bolier equipped.
Another note: the line was largely elevated long before the approach to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Only loose link is that the PRR did run through Penn Station - at least, they did in the early 1950s when I was railfanning in that area. The coach yards were on the cheaper side of the East River. Also, weren't there a few joint NH-PRR trains that ran Boston-Washington by way of the Hell Gate Bridge and Penn Station?
Chuck (former New Yorker modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
A few ideas (probably not original) to get up to next deck:
1) use the car ferry. Put a dock on each deck, one above the other, and manually lift the boat. (If you are a mechanical genius, build a crane or other gadget to lift the boat.) Put a big, deep box full of styrofoam peanuts on the floor under the docks, just in case.
2) NYC has a lot of tall buildings. Hide a sloped track behind the backdrop.
3) Helix. Both ends have a tunnel portal on them. The ends do not have to be the same tunnel if you don't want to.
3b) Helix with scenery, plus a peek-a-boo slot somewhere so you can see just a snippet of the train. Worked in correctly with the scenery-ed outside, it can look like a train moving on an elevated track somewhere in the distance.
Yes there is even a photo in a Classic Trains issue of a GG-1 that fell into the station basement.("oops" "what the **** do you oops for!?!?!" A ****** GG-1 fell thruogh the basement!!!! HOW CAN YOU SAY OOPS!?!?!?!?)
Sorry. Wrong Penn Station. That happened when the brakes failed and the GG-1 plunged through the floor of the Union Station in Washigton, DC,
BRJN wrote: A few ideas (probably not original) to get up to next deck:1) use the car ferry. Put a dock on each deck, one above the other, and manually lift the boat. (If you are a mechanical genius, build a crane or other gadget to lift the boat.) Put a big, deep box full of styrofoam peanuts on the floor under the docks, just in case.2) NYC has a lot of tall buildings. Hide a sloped track behind the backdrop.3) Helix. Both ends have a tunnel portal on them. The ends do not have to be the same tunnel if you don't want to.3b) Helix with scenery, plus a peek-a-boo slot somewhere so you can see just a snippet of the train. Worked in correctly with the scenery-ed outside, it can look like a train moving on an elevated track somewhere in the distance.
Good ideas.
I intend to use car ferries to bring stuff onto the layout.
Since I live in NYC, I know what lies across the river from Brooklyn and Queens.
If I use a helix, I'll use tunnel portals on both ends. I'll make sure one cans ee where the trains inside are.