Here is a plan for your consideration.24 ft x 31 ft room.
2 ft shelf all around the room. From each of the 24 ft sides there is a peninsula sticking out in the room. That should allow you to have minimum 3 ft aisles, 2 ft wide pinch points at the widest point in the blob, 2 ft wide shelf, 4 ft wide penisulas, 24 ft long with blobs big enough for 40" radius. I have posted a blue-sky for layout plan. It has 3 divisions, red, blue and green that radiate out from the wye. In addition there is the terminal/yard (magenta) and staging (lt. blue). Orient the trackplan in the room so that the the entrance door is on the blue division. By doing that you can leave the drop leaf/liftout/swingout open during open houses and still run a looooong continuous loop on the red and green divisions. If you don't want that much red division I'm sure you can put a loop in at the base of the peninsula by staging and route the red line into staging, then use the red peninsula for the PLE/B&O/NYC railroads. By double tracking or triple tracking the PRR (not a stretch usually) you can get a whole bunch of cars and trains orbiting at the same time.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
PRRT1MAN wrote: Apparently I didn't make myself clear on either post. I have no intention of any duckunders. I will have 2 swing down bridge sections but no duckunders. If I want to move between isles I will stop the trains, swing the bridge down,put it back up and start again....... Sorry if I sound cross but I hear everybody loud and clear " no duckunders" Trust me I just had back surgery at 40 so I am not going to put any.... Some of you are missing my concept I want and need wide radius curves. 40" is my minimum with an "E" shape dog bone etc how can I get that? I don't mind the comments of the plan but we all have criteria that we want or need in our layout. Mine is running large steam PRR T1's, Q2's S2 etc. I am going to want to sit and watch them. I am not into switching, or proto running with a fast clock etc... As for the turntable section.... I have already laid it out on the floor with the roundhouse. I need 6 ft accross just to accomodate the roundhouse half moon area. How can I get that section narrower with that design? I don't want to change that part since I do want to model that section of the Lawrence Jct as closely as possible. Maybe this will clear up some issues.
Apparently I didn't make myself clear on either post. I have no intention of any duckunders. I will have 2 swing down bridge sections but no duckunders. If I want to move between isles I will stop the trains, swing the bridge down,put it back up and start again....... Sorry if I sound cross but I hear everybody loud and clear " no duckunders" Trust me I just had back surgery at 40 so I am not going to put any.... Some of you are missing my concept I want and need wide radius curves. 40" is my minimum with an "E" shape dog bone etc how can I get that? I don't mind the comments of the plan but we all have criteria that we want or need in our layout. Mine is running large steam PRR T1's, Q2's S2 etc. I am going to want to sit and watch them. I am not into switching, or proto running with a fast clock etc... As for the turntable section.... I have already laid it out on the floor with the roundhouse. I need 6 ft accross just to accomodate the roundhouse half moon area. How can I get that section narrower with that design? I don't want to change that part since I do want to model that section of the Lawrence Jct as closely as possible. Maybe this will clear up some issues.
Sam
Getting a little whupped with what you think is a brilliant idea is normal. Folks are actually looking out for your best interests. If you really didn't want criticism, don't put it out there in the 1st place. If the criticism is coming from an unexpected direction, then all the more reason to listen carefully.
My initial sticking point is the two rather long, separated aisles - especially in light of your statement about wanting to sit and watch the trains run. Taking you literally at your word about how you want to operate, 3 narrow aisles separated by a barrier that requires you to shut down operations to cross doesn't fit well with sitting in a comfy chair watching them run. Your aisles aren't wide enough for a roll-around chair without hitting the layout as you move to view the layout from all the vantage points a long aisle set provides. Building it high (by high, I mean track at 52" and higher), it's not going to be very visible from a seated position unless you use a bar stool. Bar stools are not the easiest things to get up and down from, and carry to a new vantage point. And the roundhouse section at 6ft across is going to require a low layout (and a good strong back) just to reach the middle for both initial construction and future maintenance. Or do you truly believe you will always have 100% perfect alignment between the turntable and the roundhouse tracks? Or that you will never accidently run a locomotive into the turntable pit (even the prototype managed that feat occasionally)? I fear your layout will quickly become too inconvenient to both operate and maintain - assuming it gets built to completion.
Doesn't matter whether it is a swing bridge or a duck under or a liftout - any kind of barrier in the aisles during operations is a design disaster waiting to be revealed. How convenient is the situation going to be when you want to view operations from one of the other aisles? What happens when one of your prize locomotives decides to take up floor diving in another aisle? I learned something from my father's layouts with various access arrangements (liftout, swing down, and duckunder) - all barriers become duckunders or crash-throughs in moments of crisis.
To get your 40" radius on a peninsula, how about an 84" wide section with a 24" separation aisle in the middle?. The middle access aisle would only be used when it made construction more convenient because there is only a 30" reach from either primary aisle. During operations, the center access would never be used. Just a suggestion.
My rule of thumb is that aisles can be separated by barriers for construction if it adds significantly to the plan. But barriers between aisles during operation don't work for me.
Which is why I had to ditch my inital plan for my space that was basically a doughnut with center pit and an aisle on the outside of one side of the doughnut. The pain in the neck to get to the center pit was worth it for the extra layout space I gained, but I realized that having to get to both outside and inside during operations was not worth the pain it would inflict.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
PRRT1MAN wrote: Some of you are missing my concept I want and need wide radius curves. 40" is my minimum with an "E" shape dog bone etc how can I get that? .<snip>...As for the turntable section..<snip>.. I have already laid it out on the floor with the roundhouse. I need 6 ft accross just to accomodate the roundhouse half moon area. ..<snip>... I don't want to change that part since I do want to model that section of the Lawrence Jct as closely as possible. Maybe this will clear up some issues.
We haven't missed a thing, but other than mentioning Lawerence Jct, this is the FIRST time you have mentioned a minimum radius or that you require this big of a roundhouse or what your target engines were. If one were picky, one might notice that you haven't even told us what scale your are designing for. I'm assuming HO, but you haven't said. I'm sure you have some very specific goals but if you don't share them, then you leave it up to OUR imagination to design stuff. A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
My suggestion is that you define your goals, objectives and restrictions are and share that with us. Then sketch out the basic prototype trackplan and the train flows. Once you figure out the train flows, then that will tell you where you need staging in relation to the other components. Then its just a matter of fitting those pieces into the room.
PRRT1MAN wrote:Some of you are missing my concept I want and need wide radius curves. 40" is my minimum with an "E" shape dog bone etc how can I get that? I don't mind the comments of the plan but we all have criteria that we want or need in our layout. Mine is running large steam PRR T1's, Q2's S2 etc. I am going to want to sit and watch them. I am not into switching, or proto running with a fast clock etc... As for the turntable section.... I have already laid it out on the floor with the roundhouse. I need 6 ft accross just to accomodate the roundhouse half moon area. How can I get that section narrower with that design? I don't want to change that part since I do want to model that section of the Lawrence Jct as closely as possible. Maybe this will clear up some issues.
What we're trying to tell you is, sometimes you need to compromise between what you want and what is practical to have. Many of us, myself included, speak from experience.
But hey, go ahead and do what you want. You'll find out the hard way. It'll cost more and waste your time, but maybe that's all right with you.
kissmethod wrote: SamHow are you getting into the central isleway, a duckunder or a swing bridge section? As time goes on you will dislike a duckunder. I am 62 and would not design a layout with a duckunder for any amount of money.Steve Moore
How are you getting into the central isleway, a duckunder or a swing bridge section? As time goes on you will dislike a duckunder. I am 62 and would not design a layout with a duckunder for any amount of money.
Steve Moore
A couple of things people say really bother me because I like "straight talk.".
First, when people say "a little bit" when they really mean "a whole lot."
Second, when people say "duckunder" when they really mean "crawl under."
Mark
www.kissmethodinc.com
Your revision has taken care of MOST of your access problems but unless you modify one or both of those operating wells you are still going to have problems in the vicinity of where you have your roundhouse located.
Also, if you persist in insisting on a duckunder layout you might give some consideration to building high benchwork and using some sort of roll-around furniture--stool;office chair; etc--for movement into and between those operating wells. I have no idea how old you are but as I said earlier those duckunders are going to get old very very quickly.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I don't think you're seeing the disadvantages we are; I guarantee you, if you build the layout the way you describe (even in your second plan), you'll end up tearing out parts and fixing them later--which can be avoided by using a btter plan at the outset.
Here's what you need to shoot for:
One continous aisle. No duckunders. Really. We're not kidding nor being unrealistic.
A reasonable reach--and if you're going to build the layout tall, which I applaud, then your reachable distance is shorter than if it were short and you looked down on it. As much you don't believe us now, I can tell you you'll really regret building a section of layout you can't easily access. That turntable will kill you if you put it where you only have partial access, as it is shown.
You have a great space available--take advantage of it and build a design you will actually enjoy.
You asked for a critique of what we think about your presnt layout scheme. I assume this is to be an HO scale DCC layout So here are a few suggestions. and a freehand drawing of my 24'x24' layout. With a 24'x30' area you have adequate room for reversing trains with reverse loops and wyes. You may have the desire to just watch your long locos traverse the same track, but after watching the train repeat the same loop about eighty times, it gets sort of dull. Never pass a wye through a roundhouse. I like the double egress from your roundhouse, but it should be a designated track in conjunction with a drop-off, pick-up yard, so that you do not tie up the mainline. Any yard track should be capable of holding at least ten cars (on each parallel tracks, of nearly equal length.) I like to use Y switches, double slip switches and cross overs within the yard, so that the switchers have access to all tracks without ever going on the mainline. Always have a lengthy drill track (or pair of drill tracks) for building 20-30 car consists,so that you never tie up the main line. With the space you have available, you should include lengthy run-arounds or long spurs to service industries and allow priority train to pass a slower non-priority train. I have 18 routes by which 4-6 trains can simultaneously move about my layout
The California head-on crash would never have occured, with "State of the art" signalling. I use double slip switches or cross-overs with long passing tracks, to accomodate priority trains and allow space for waiting freight. Incidentally, where is the access to your layout from another room, and how do you get from one work area to the other? ( Lift outs, hinged up ordrop-downs, or is it a "duck under", that you are planning ? The 24'x24' version of my presnt layout started as a dogbone along the top (where an N scale loop is now) I built this "preplanned "around the room, garage loft layout, (with inside stairway)., in four stages (with dead spurs to allow for preplanned expansion) Although the aisles are narrow, there is easy access and viewing in all areas. I have scenery on Luan ovals over "duck under" access holes, (in hard to reach ares and removable scenery caps on all mountains and hidden behind backdrops). My present DCC HO layout is divided into four power districts, with each district with a shut off switch and under table "short location lights). The 96 electrically controlled switches are divided between the four operators (or one) with probe control on scale district drawings. Build your layout in small "preplanned stages"! Bob
PRRT1MAN wrote:Here is a revised version. I still have not re-done the track work but it gives a bit better insight of my intentions and where the door and lift out sections are located plus a narrrower version of the table in some areas.
Still needs a bit more work.
Smile, Stein
dehusman wrote: PRRT1MAN wrote: As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.If you look at Lawerence Jct on Terraserver:http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=17&X=1380&Y=11338&W=3&qs=%7clawrence+junction%7cpa%7cyou will see the roundhouse sits in the middle of a very well defined wye track and although you can't see the track out the back, the only place it could go is to one of the north or east wye leg.On you layout plan the roundhouse does not sit in the middle of a well defined wye. the back connection connects to a through mainline that is not obviously associated with the area around the wye or the roundhouse. That's what I meant by saying that your premise wasn't well defined. I can't tell that the roundhouse is in a wye. Dave H.
PRRT1MAN wrote: As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.
If you look at Lawerence Jct on Terraserver:
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=17&X=1380&Y=11338&W=3&qs=%7clawrence+junction%7cpa%7c
you will see the roundhouse sits in the middle of a very well defined wye track and although you can't see the track out the back, the only place it could go is to one of the north or east wye leg.
On you layout plan the roundhouse does not sit in the middle of a well defined wye. the back connection connects to a through mainline that is not obviously associated with the area around the wye or the roundhouse. That's what I meant by saying that your premise wasn't well defined. I can't tell that the roundhouse is in a wye.
Birds eye view of the area Dave linked to on http://maps.live.com:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=qtv7jv891kzv&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=28181740&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
The wye surrounding the roundhouse is visible.
Maybe you could do something like thisto make the roundhouse inside wye more apparent ?
Sorry for not responding to all the comments I have been without power and internt since Sunday eve. I like all the suggestions and appreciate them. That's why I posted. I dont want to make a huge mistake.... I have all the time in the world to re-design since I haven't started yet. I do like the idea of an "E" shape. As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.
Sam--
While I like your basic idea, the duck-unders are going to be a MAJOR problem, believe me. My first big (garage layout) had two duck-unders, which were just fine for me at my age back then, but almost prohibitive for several older guys who liked to come over and help me run my trains.
When I tore out the original layout and rebuilt it, I made sure that there were NO duck-unders, only continuous aisles. I couldn't have planned better! Take a look at your plan again, I have a feeling that you could adjust your track to make those two aisles joined up and offer a lot more operating room. And see if you can get that turntable a little closer to a normal reach in case of electrical or derailment problems.
But generally speaking, it looks like (with some adjustments) that you could have a lot of fun operating this railroad.
Just my
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I strongly suggest you get a copy of John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation and read it before building. While this layout appears to offer some fun operation with numerous routes, I think you'll find that the frustrations will quickly outweigh the fun. If you only ever read one book on model railroading, this is the book.
Enjoy
Paul
The one dimension we haven't discussed is vertical - how high is the ceiling?
Reason I ask is, have you ever considered trying the mushroom idea. Not only does it allow comfortable aisleways and short reaches, but, by stacking sceniced layers and accessing them from different sides, there is far more surface available for trackwork and the rest of the visible world. Just Google Model Railroad Mushrooms and a whole new realm of possibilities will open up.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Oh to have that much room. Looks to be the kind of layout I can only dream about. Lots of time watching the trains run. I would agree with some of the comments however as to how far you have to reach, etc. Also I would find a way to avoid duckunders. Great if you're young, not so great when you get up there in years. Good luck. I'd like to see some pictures of construction, etc. when you get to work on it.
Dave in Maine
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
PICKY! PICKY! PICKY!
Sam, I see several potential disasters in your layout plan. I presume that your are shoving a 24 X 31 layout into a 24 X 31 room and therefore--except where there is a door and I am sure there is one somewhere--this layout is going to fit flush against all walls. Your grid measures to 3 inches and this configures a 36 inch minimum shelf width.
UNLESS YOUR NAME IS SHAQ OR YAO THAT'S AN AWFUL LONG WAY TO REACH!
A considerable amount of your trackage runs within a foot or so of those room walls and at several locations along this perimeter track you have switchwork; switch=grief! You need to narrow up these outerperimeter shelves to an accessible 24 inches; this will be done by changing the parameters of those inside operating locations increasing the inside platforms by 24 inches which will give you benefits of scenery and structures.
You have one other problem; necessity mandates a duckunder just getting into the layout and I don't care how you cut it a certain amount of ducking is going to be required between those two inside operating pits and sooner or later you are going to begin booting yourself in the rearend for that second pit. I will gee-go-guarantee you that you will never design a layout with two duckunders again.
I suspect you are designing a Horribly Oversized layout; I know people would kill for a 24 X 31 layout space. Your room has outstanding potential for a walk-in layout and my advice would be to go back to the drawing board and design such.
A compliment: even as flawed as your design might be you have at least avoided cramming, a noticable shortcoming on many first layouts.
Sam,
IMO there are SIX MAJOR problems with your trackplan:
1. duckunder #1
2. duckunder #2
3. aisle 1 physically seperated from aisle 2.
4. aisle 2 physically seperated from aisle 1.
5. very poor/difficult turntable and roundhouse access..just asking for frustration.
6. aisles too narrow..
you can do SO much better with your space! :)
sorry..but IMO thats just not a good plan at all..far too many unnecessary problems, you could eliminate ALL of those problems and have a layout you really enjoy, rather than a layout you end up hating..
keep aisles to 3-feet wide, and sections of layout to 2-feet deep, peninsulas can be 4-feet wide if there is access from 2 or 3 sides, (so every point on the layout is 2-feet or less from an edge)..your turntable/roundhouse area could fit on a peninusla exactly as you have it..but you want access on 3 sides of the peninsula..that could be the "main feature" of the layout, and stick out into the room from the edges..
Scot
PRRT1MAN wrote: Group,Just started planning my layout. The room is 24x31 I made up a plan in RTS Freeware from Atlas. Here is a bitmap image of the layout. What do you think?Sam
Group,
Just started planning my layout. The room is 24x31 I made up a plan in RTS Freeware from Atlas. Here is a bitmap image of the layout. What do you think?
I assume you are using at least two duckunders here. I would suggest that you try to eliminate them if at all possible because they tend to be inconvenient for those who have trouble crawling under them. You might better off making those into two peninsulas bridged by removable bridges.
Irv
first thing i do when looking at a track plan is start in a yard and follow around where a train would go . your layout gives you all kinds of ways to get from a yard back to the same yard which is something that you won't see often in a real railroad , mostly there's just one way to get from one place to another . i know most of us make it possible to run a train around the layout and come back to where you started but i think one should attempt to make the layout look like point to point like the real thing . unless your thing is to run trains around in circles .
try drawing your plan out as a straight line as if it was on a map , you'll see the connections you have either don't make sense or wouldn't be possible .
ernie
Maybe you could do something similar to what I did:
The layout I'm working on has a double track main with about as long a run as I could fit in the available space (videos in my signature), no duckunders,grades, and staging for four 30 car trains. I s'pose you could call this a railfan's layout, as it's good for watching trains run, but not much in the way of operation, except for engine swaps on the main near the engine terminal. All parts of the layout are within easy reach(except for the part along the east wall just behind the turntable0. Since you have more room than I do, you could probably do better than I did.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Yea, I totally didn't see the two separate isle ways. Bad idea.
I know the last thing that you want to hear is - start over. However, let me offer a couple of suggestions.
The bench work should be 18 to 24 inches wide so that you can reach everything comfortably. Make the bench work in the shape of an 'E' with the openings facing down. Design the mainline in the form of a dog bone. Use a two track mainline with a single track return loop at each end (you could also double track it and use crossovers) of the 'E' (left and right) On these return-loop ends, the bench work will have to be wider, and you might have to provide a center access from underneath. The center leg of the 'E' can be a peninsula four feet wide with a scenery divider down the center starting at the upper wall and coming about half way down. On the end of the center peninsula, put the turntable and roundhouse. That way you have a lot of room for it but have the access that you need too.
Start with this basic shape and then work in your main yard, other towns, and industries. This way you have a layout that you can walk in and out of with out any duck-unders, so you can follow a train around the entire mainline. You also have the room that you need for the large engine facilities, plus you get it out in the open where visitors will see it better.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I suggest you build a much less ambitious layout. You will likely save a lot of money and grief if you do. After you've gained additional knowledge about railroads, layout design, and experience in layout contruction and operations, you will be in a better position to conceive and build a satisfying layout occupying your large space. Most of us mortals need to construct at least a couple or more "learning" layouts before reaching a level of basic competence.
I would have to say you have oriented tha layout towards running trains as opposed to prototypical operation or switching.
You will regret having two separated aisles.
The staging yard (assuming that is what is its on the left) needs to have its shape changed or neds to be flipped so the ladders break away from the aisle and then move the ladders to exit the curves on either end.
The yard near the turntable isn't really usefull. the tracks are too short, there isn't a run around and no switching lead.
The turntable feeding off two sides of the loop isn't very prototypical. Its also in the middle of the widest benchwork which means access will be a bear.
Without anymore information, I can't really see a clarity of purpose or operation (then again having a colored background and the fine grid make it difficult to see details of the plan.)
If you are wanting to just run trains then i suggest a couple true double track loops that share a staging yard. Go with DCC and you can hands free orbit numerous long trains. If you were planning prototypical operations you need to define where and what you want to do because its not clear and doesn't look like it will do it.
I suggest developing a list of "givens and druthers", that is a list of the things you want, the locale the minimum radius, the standard radius, switch sizes, era, etc.etc. and use that list to design off of.