I'm hoping that the masses here can offer some suggestions.
I've been doodling in 3rd Planit and I'm stuck. Of course, just in the process of writing this I already realized a couple of problems I need to solve.
Here's what I have so far (HO scale):
I know that I'm missing runarounds on the brewery and the warehouse (just realized that) which is going to be a problem obviously.
I'm really stuck with how to put together a small (maybe 2-3 track) yard and servicing building in the grey square at the top. This is going to be a small shortline operation in the Reading/Pottsville area in Pennsylvania. I'm stuck on how to fit everything in there appropriately and am hoping for some ideas to spring forth from people a lot more experienced than myself.
And oh yeah - I know my staging trackage is a mess. Believe me I know. Once I looked at it I was wondering what the heck I was smoking when I laid it down.
Any ideas are appreciated. If anyone would like the 3pi file just let me know.
Thanks,
Greg
HO_Greg wrote:
Looking at your yard, the track on the very bottom might be long enough for a single car or locomotive. I made one using Atlas' RTS 8.0, using #4 Custom turnouts. As you can see, it gives you longer tracks and eliminates those pesky "S" curves. You could subsitute the #4s with #5s or #6s, although the #6s might eliminate one track
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I'll see if I can square off that bridge. I was trying to avoid that becuase (not on the diagram) the staging area is only 16" deep and I have my workbench right underneath it. Meaning I can't really bring that staging area out any more without bumping my head at the workbench.
If I square it off it's still going to be a long bride - somewhere about 50" long in fact.
Good point about turning facilities though. I forgot to look into that.
Hi. I see a couple of things that will bother you big time.. As mentioned already, you have a counter-clockwise trap on the mainline that will force you to go headfirst into staging. This will rob you of the use of that loco until you get the 0-5-0 switcher to retrieve it. Any train longer than about 2ft will plug up the 3rd trk from the top of the drawing. As a fiddle yard, that staging will be a disaster to try to put a new train together. You may guess that I'm not a fan of stub-ended staging or classification yards unless they are good and long with runarounds.
I was going to suggest you swap the river and the staging areas, but think it better to have the yard away from the industries, so where it is is best.You could put a couple of staging tracks hidden behind it. A proper yard ladder entrance at both ends will pay off in ease of use.
Not all industries need a runaround on their sidings. You don't normally pull a cut of cars into a spur. If the local meets a facing-point siding, the usual thing is to spot the cuts at the next 2-ended siding down the line so the next freight coming from the other direction can pick them up and back them into the industry's spur. Happens every day. For your brewery, can you get 1 track to go inside the bldg? That way, the other track will be beside the loading dock, and both can be "serviced" by the customer at the same time without juggling.
I like the idea of putting the long bridge up the left side of the layout. It need not be all that long, and can be a lift-up or drop down design shorter than what it looks like now, if you like. Another reason to move it is that it will be very close to your back as you sit at the workbench, and thus will get a lot of "Oops-es" here. This changes the flavour of the layout to an around-the-wall design. If the layout height is enough, the workbench can be under the yard, in the "pit" area.
Edit: Putting the bridge up the left side can let you have a way out of the CCW trap. By putting in a turn from the downward diagonal to the upward bridge approach, you can get going clockwise again. What sort of stock will you be running? Those 18" radius curves are very tight...
Glad to see you trying to make the layout fly on paper. It's easy to fix it now rather than having to redo stuff later!
Have fun, George
Ok - so here's an updated version, moved the bridge to be more "around the wall" and messed with the whole yard area. The turn in the top right is actually going to be a tunnel - didn't put that on the diagram but just as a heads up.
I know the turnouts are tight (many are #4) and some of the radius are much smaller than I'd want at 15-16" but I plan on only running 4-axle equipment here (modern shortline using older locos) and shorter trains (obviously).
The "fiddle" yard is mainly for some car storage and also the DCC programming track since it's right at my workbench.
Workbench height is about 43" on the bottom side (actual layout will be more like 46" once everything is built up) -- which unfortunately doesn't allow me to put the workbench completely under the track due to head clearances. That's why the one edge is only 16" deep.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to need to tweak the "industry" side of the layout a bit Any thoughts on this are appreciated.
Also the "yard" will most likely have to be some form of hidden staging so the trains have a place to go TO. I might strip out the top piece of the ladded to make more room since I don't know if I'll be able to hide it effectively as close as it is to the servicing yard/RIP.
Again - comments are appreciated. I'm a neophyte at this stuff!
-Greg
You still have no way to turn even a short train. You will always have to watch your trains going (pick a direction) unless you turn locomotives and cars by hand. It's not by any means a show-stopper, but you will probably get tired of watching your engines run in reverse in one direction only.
You could get a broader curve at upper left if you slid your entire yard about 9" or-so to the right. That extra two -3" of radius will come in handy when you decide you'd really like that Mikado or something large in a diesel for Christmas. It'll happen.
selector wrote:You still have no way to turn even a short train. You will always have to watch your trains going (pick a direction) unless you turn locomotives and cars by hand. It's not by any means a show-stopper, but you will probably get tired of watching your engines run in reverse in one direction only.You could get a broader curve at upper left if you slid your entire yard about 9" or-so to the right. That extra two -3" of radius will come in handy when you decide you'd really like that Mikado or something large in a diesel for Christmas. It'll happen.
Good point and for some stupid reason I keep forgetting to come up with a way to turn the darn train!
I'll try moving the yard over and broadening the curve a bit. That tight of a curve really bothers me personally but I couldn't see a way to reall make it "larger" without banging my head on the bridge!
ndbprr wrote:There is no reason why that loop track has to turn and run on the top side of your drawing along the wall. Start the turn sooner on the left side and you can still salvage your yard behind it the way you had it.
Unfortunately because of where the workbench is I can't really do that - because I'd have to extend that 16" depth piece further out which would obscure the bench itself. Due to the layout of the room and the layout heightthat 16" x 48" piece of benchwork on the top left is non-neogitable. Really crimps my style.
I'm working on another version now with slight broader turns and a reversing loop. Getting kind of hard to cram everything in there!
Suggestion revising the upper area into a return for a folded dogbone layout, extending the staging area and adding an access aisle for staging area and reworkinging (sort of) the engine maiantanence area, theses areas need more thought than I can throw at it in a few minutes.
Have fun with your trains
HO_Greg wrote:I'm hoping that the masses here can offer some suggestions.
1) Draw your entire room, not just the area you think your layout belongs in. Mark off workbench, walls, doors etc - stuff that has to be accomodated.
It can make a huge difference - maybe you can fit staging tracks on the "outside" of your U-shaped layout, behind a backdrop when seen from the pit, but visible from the outside.
2) Look at the prototype for LDEs (small parts of the prototype) that you can turn into "scenes" on your model railroad.
I used http://maps.live.com and located Reading, Pa and Pottsville, Pa, zoomed in as much as I could and followed the tracks from Reading towards Pottsville.
Some potensial candidates for scenes on your model railroad:
West Hamburg: http://tinyurl.com/6hfssx Port Clinton: http://tinyurl.com/64t2qr Schuylkill Haven: http://tinyurl.com/5p2xyt Cressona: http://tinyurl.com/5rq8vt Port Clinton, in particular, could probably be used to give you ideas for tracks in a your theoretical shortline home town.
And looking for pics of Port Reading, I stumbled upon this webpage ...
http://www.readingnorthern.com/map.shtml
Smile, Stein
steinjr wrote:1) Draw your entire room, not just the area you think your layout belongs in. Mark off workbench, walls, doors etc - stuff that has to be accomodated. It can make a huge difference - maybe you can fit staging tracks on the "outside" of your U-shaped layout, behind a backdrop when seen from the pit, but visible from the outside.
Done. That's what the outline is. The left "wall" is open to the rest of the basement but the edges are defined exactly per the space I have available (I'm using all of it). The secretary of the interior has been approached about using more space but has put an immediate halt on any encroachment.
steinjr wrote: 2) Look at the prototype for LDEs (small parts of the prototype) that you can turn into "scenes" on your model railroad. I used http://maps.live.com and located Reading, Pa and Pottsville, Pa, zoomed in as much as I could and followed the tracks from Reading towards Pottsville. Some potensial candidates for scenes on your model railroad:West Hamburg: http://tinyurl.com/6hfssx Port Clinton: http://tinyurl.com/64t2qr Schuylkill Haven: http://tinyurl.com/5p2xyt Cressona: http://tinyurl.com/5rq8vt Port Clinton, in particular, could probably be used to give you ideas for tracks in a your theoretical shortline home town. Smile, Stein
That's what I'm working off of. Especially the Yuengling brewery in Port Carbon. My biggest problem right now seems to be turning the darn trains around in the space availble! A good point that has been raised a couple of times now. I'm working on it trying to fit in a way to turn even short trains around.
Thanks for the input. It's all helping me a lot.
HO_Greg wrote: steinjr wrote:1) Draw your entire room, not just the area you think your layout belongs in. Mark off workbench, walls, doors etc - stuff that has to be accomodated. It can make a huge difference - maybe you can fit staging tracks on the "outside" of your U-shaped layout, behind a backdrop when seen from the pit, but visible from the outside. Done. That's what the outline is. The left "wall" is open to the rest of the basement but the edges are defined exactly per the space I have available (I'm using all of it). The secretary of the interior has been approached about using more space but has put an immediate halt on any encroachment.
Just to make sure I understand you correctly - are you saying that the red lines on the top, right and bottom is the walls, and that the space shown outside the red lines is just you not making the size of your sheet the same as the size of your room ?
You need to have a workbench under the layout along the top wall. You have told us how tall the workbench is (43"), but I don't think you have told us how long and how deep it is ? Does it start from the leftmost edge of the top wall ?
HO_Greg wrote: steinjr wrote: 2) Look at the prototype for LDEs (small parts of the prototype) that you can turn into "scenes" on your model railroad. I used http://maps.live.com and located Reading, Pa and Pottsville, Pa, zoomed in as much as I could and followed the tracks from Reading towards Pottsville. Some potensial candidates for scenes on your model railroad:West Hamburg: http://tinyurl.com/6hfssx Port Clinton: http://tinyurl.com/64t2qr Schuylkill Haven: http://tinyurl.com/5p2xyt Cressona: http://tinyurl.com/5rq8vt Port Clinton, in particular, could probably be used to give you ideas for tracks in a your theoretical shortline home town. That's what I'm working off of. Especially the Yuengling brewery in Port Carbon. My biggest problem right now seems to be turning the darn trains around in the space availble! A good point that has been raised a couple of times now. I'm working on it trying to fit in a way to turn even short trains around.
steinjr wrote: 2) Look at the prototype for LDEs (small parts of the prototype) that you can turn into "scenes" on your model railroad. I used http://maps.live.com and located Reading, Pa and Pottsville, Pa, zoomed in as much as I could and followed the tracks from Reading towards Pottsville. Some potensial candidates for scenes on your model railroad:West Hamburg: http://tinyurl.com/6hfssx Port Clinton: http://tinyurl.com/64t2qr Schuylkill Haven: http://tinyurl.com/5p2xyt Cressona: http://tinyurl.com/5rq8vt Port Clinton, in particular, could probably be used to give you ideas for tracks in a your theoretical shortline home town.
Okay - one LDE is the Yuengling brewery in Port Carbon. What else ?
Where will traffic be coming from and going to (ie what does your staging represent) ?
What do you mean by "turning around" - do you mean having continuous run possibility around the room, having a turnback loop, having a place to run an engine around cars before going back in the oppisite direction or something else ?
Sorry - thought I had mentioned the size of the workbench. The benchwork for the railroad is at 43" using L-Girder and 1x3 joists (so the "bottom" of the benchwork is about 38" off the floor.
The workbench is under the 16"x48" segment of the layout and is 30" deep by 47.5" wide. Standard 4 post desk. I will update the diagram this evening to reflect it. And yes, it starts for the left-most side.
As for the room - yes the red lines are actual walls. The "open" side on the left is just open to the rest of the basement which I didn't draw since it's no-go space. So what is shown on the diagram is the effective space I have available. The diagram just isn't set to edge on the walls - call me lazy.
Staging in this case will likely be Cressona - in effect what I am modeling is a freelance based on some trackage currently run by Reading & Northern (the Pottsville branch). Alternate history time. I didn't have enough space to do what I wanted with the RBMN so I'm freelancing it out a bit to fit in the brewery (which I want to model) and a small coal dump/mine (no breaker, just a truck dump). The warehouse I'm throwing in as a team track to have some additional places to set out cars.
I would PREFER to have the ability to do continuous running - I have small children and they like to see trains go 'round and 'round. However, the main intent is to make it interesting (to me). Having a way to turn trains gives you more opportunity to do things. I don't think it's a requirement but it is nice to be able to turn them around so everyone doesn't think my railroad is just a NASCAR track with everyone always turning in the same direction.
I'll post my givens & druthers later this evening as well .. about to leave the office so don't have time.
I appreciate the questions - they force me to be specific and focus the efforts and energy.
How about if you make a loop around the walls that give you continuous running (when the 50+" bridging piece is in place), but where you let the track closest to the wall go down and under the tracks for end "ends" of the RR line.
Something like this (tracks not optimized - just an idea for discussion):
It would take making the Yuengling removable if you have to deal with a derailment inside the building.
This might be too optimistic in terms of inclines, since you also need to have some transitional zones from flat to incline. Still - worth considering if you can hook under or over somehow.
How about making your workbench lower and your layout higher? That will give you more space between them and you may be able to slide it under the layout more. For a workbench chair, you could get an old wooden one from a flea market and cut the legs so it sits lower.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
steinjr,
I'm glad you posted the layout plan for Greg. It opened up my mind on a few things. As I posted in another thread I am moving and will be changing a few things on my layout plan. Since I have to disassemble my layout, it would be easy when I reassemble it to add a few inches of table top to the frame work here and there. Or I may just build new frames.
Now I'm looking forward to the reincarnation of my layout.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
I think vsmith may be onto something worth pursuing... Having 3 bridges over the river only a few inches apart may look a bit odd, but if the centre one were deleted it can lead to a fix for the CCW trap problem and improved visual presentation.
First, the yard track needs to be reconnected to the mainline. Just run it to the right and join it to the rightmost main above the river. The river may have to move a bit downward to accomodate the switch.
The line joining the left main to the right near the coal dump needs to be shortened. A right-hand curved turnout by the coal dump will work here. A fun alternative to the shortening could have you using a diamond crossing in the next step..
To get the right- and left mains connected to eliminate the CCW trap, run a new line from the (southbound) left main below the river, and connect with the (northbound) right main via another curved (left-hand) turnout above the coal dump. Now the layout has a figure-8 configuration and reversing the traffic flow is easy to do. About the diamond: if you do not shorten the old left-to right cross, it will require a diamond the get the right-to-left line over it.
HO_Greg wrote: As for the room - yes the red lines are actual walls. The "open" side on the left is just open to the rest of the basement which I didn't draw since it's no-go space.
You need to flip your layout top to bottom. Put the staging on one of the open walls, facing out into the room. That way you have 100% access to staging, but when you are operating from in the pit can be "hidden".
Staging in this case will likely be Cressona
Is your concern that trains travel in the same direction every time (very easy to fix, just runaround the train and flip the direction switch on the powerpack) or that the engines always face the same way (entirely prototypical for a shortline branch)?
Dave H.
(who used to live in Norristown and has spent a lot of time researching Tamaqua)
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I'm going to try to re-work the track plan in N scale just to see what I could do differently. So far the comments have been fantastic and have really helped me narrow the scope and refine the vision.
I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that I may not be able to do all I want using HO -- I could easily do a point-to-point layout but getting that return loop in the space I have is become more and more problematic. Not impossible, but I think I'll have to make more compromises than I want to.
I'll post more after I take a quick pass at an N scale layout in the same space, along with posting the givens and druthers.
dehusman wrote: Having a way to turn trains gives you more opportunity to do things. I don't think it's a requirement but it is nice to be able to turn them around so everyone doesn't think my railroad is just a NASCAR track with everyone always turning in the same direction.Is your concern that trains travel in the same direction every time (very easy to fix, just runaround the train and flip the direction switch on the powerpack) or that the engines always face the same way (entirely prototypical for a shortline branch)?
Having a way to turn trains gives you more opportunity to do things. I don't think it's a requirement but it is nice to be able to turn them around so everyone doesn't think my railroad is just a NASCAR track with everyone always turning in the same direction.