the end of a branch line.. to have a turn-around or not?

[WaxonWaxov]

Hello folks,

See this 'master plan' for my branch line....

See the branch that goes from Climax to Ramseur?

When modeling Ramseur is it required to have a way to turn motive power?

Note that Ramseur is the 'end of the line' in the mountains with no connections. Trains doing the "Ramseur Turn" would start in Greensboro (a yard with a turntable, etc) then travel through Climax, then take the branch to Ramseur, do its work, then return home to Greensboro.

Do I need to provide a means to turn motive power in Ramseur? Here are the "givens and druthers"...

1) This is 1952-ish 

2) Ramseur is a small town with maybe one large indsutry (probably a peanut processing plant) and a team track.. not much more.

3) Yes, if my motive power is a GP-7 I can do a run-around and pull the train back to Greensboro with the loco "in reverse", BUT I need to think about how a steam loco would have done it ten years prior.  Would the steam loco push the train caboose first back to Greensboro? If that makes proto-typical sense, then I'm groovy with that.

4) Any passenger traffic will be RDC's

5) Obviously, since this is a small town I do not want a turntable here. ALSO, I simply don't have room for a wye turn-around since this town will be on a shelf only 24" deep.

 

[tomikawaTT]

There were many branches that didn't have turning facilities, and locomotives as big as N&W Y-class Mallets ran to the mainline connections in reverse if they hadn't backed up the branch to begin with.  When running in reverse, the brakeman in the doghouse on top of the tender became a VERY important person - the only one who could see!

If the branch was operated by fairly small steam, the tender might have been arranged with a narrow bunker and low tank to make running in reverse easier.

My own 'end of the railroad' station has a turntable that never turns a locomotive.  The locos are all tank types that arrive smokebox first and depart bunker (firebox) end first - the object being to keep water over the crown sheet on the 4% grade down to the mainline interchange.  The turntable is used to turn single-ended cars and cars that have to be unloaded from a specific side and arrive in town 'wrong side to.'

OTOH, if you want to fake a wye you could have two tracks disappear 'behind' your peanut processing plant - then hide an Atlas turntable inside the building to actually turn the locomotive while simultaneously completing the runaround.

Chuck (modeling Central Japn in September, 1964)

[WaxonWaxov]

OTOH, if you want to fake a wye you could have two tracks disappear 'behind' your peanut processing plant - then hide an Atlas turntable inside the building to actually turn the locomotive while simultaneously completing the runaround.

there's an idea.

[WSOR 3801]

Do you know what the other lines in the area did at the end of the line?  Many times steamers would run around, and pull the train back to the main line.  Some were outfitted with large back up lights for this purpose. 

Around here, Beaver Dam and Fox Lake, WI, were branches off the main line of the MILW.  On the main, there was a wye to enter-exit the branches, and each town had a reverse loop, to turn the train around. It looks like Fox Lake's station was on the outer part of the loop.  http://www.wsorrailroad.com/gallery/wisconsin-fox_lake.jpg

At Markesan, WI, there was a small turntable.  I think the canning plant now covers this area. http://www.wsorrailroad.com/gallery/wisconsin-markesan.jpg

 

[wmshay06]

While it would be a good idea to find out what the prototype did in this area and time period, its not really necesary to be able to turn locos at the end of the branch for the return leg.

In my case (C&O Hawks Nest Branch) 2-6-6-2's would run up the branch, switch the mines and return with no turning facility at all. The branch was just over 3 miles long with steep grades (4.1%) - had to be some pretty sharp railroading to work under these conditions.  Even better, the mine run would work the branches from Thurmond to Hawks Nest, cross the New River and run in reverse on the opposite side of the main (and river), work more branches and return to Thurmond.  Locals (including mine runs) would have 2 cabooses - one each fore and aft - in the view that having 2 made the job quicker.

Charles

 

[Last Chance]

My industry sits at the end of a branch. There is a train length runaround so when the industry is switched out, the train is built and ready to go. Just need to put the caboose on the other end before leaving. Then again 2 to 3 much shorter runarounds inside the industry proper makes it easier to get behind cuts of cars before putting them out ready to leave.

Basically the train arrives, switches the place and is turned around to leave the way it came.

[doctorwayne]

The CNR had many "dead end" branchlines in southern Ontario in the '50s that had turntables to turn the steam locos.  Often, these were literally at the end of the line, out in a field, with no structures or other tracks nearby.  Some were "Armstrong-type" manual turntables, while others operated with compressed air from the loco's brake pipe, and all were only long enough to accommodate the 10 Wheelers or Moguls that operated on these lines.  Of course, if you don't have room for a turntable, there's no reason why the train can't back either to-or-from the end of the line.  If a caboose is used, it could go at the front end of the train, with someone on the lead platform manning the brakepipe valve, or the loco could lead.

Wayne 

[selector]

I favour finding out what really went on if I were modelling a particular setting and railroad.  If yours is notional, protolanced, or freelanced, you can do pretty much what suits you.  Personally, if I were going to go to the trouble of turning an engine with a wye or a turntable, I'd find a way to make it watchable.  Not watchable for safety or trouble's sake, but because it is an integral part of my layout (or should be for my druthers) and would add much to the charm of the whole.  I currently have two spurs on which engines are not able to be turned.  So, they come out in reverse, and I like the effect.  It seems realistic to me.

My

-Crandell

[chadw]

On the B&O Landenberg Branch (My Prototype) the locos couldn't be turned after the line's northern terminus was abandoned.  The locos had large boxy tenders which would severely limit visibility to the rear so trains would run caboose first followed by the loco in reverse followed by the rest of the train.

Since you didn't have space to model turning facilities you coud say that the Ramseur branch used to go farther to another town where there were originally turning facilities.  Make up a year and reason it was abandoned.  Then model some overgrown abandoned trackage leaving ramseur.  This would give you a reason to not turn the locos, provide an interesting modelling opportunity, and add to the history of your layout.

[CSXDixieLine]

How about just a short runaround at the end of the line and then run back down long hood forward? Jamie

[WaxonWaxov]

Since you didn't have space to model turning facilities you coud say that the Ramseur branch used to go farther to another town where there were originally turning facilities.  Make up a year and reason it was abandoned.  Then model some overgrown abandoned trackage leaving ramseur.  This would give you a reason to not turn the locos, provide an interesting modelling opportunity, and add to the history of your layout.

I like that idea

 

[wjstix]

I grew up on a dead-end branchline in Minnesota, which was maybe 6-7 miles long. The tracks used to end at the railroad's paint shop which had a turntable for steam engines, but by the time the railroad dieselized (c.1950) the paint shop and TT were gone. There were several rail customers at the end of the line, and a run-around track so the crew could do their switching and re-assemble the train with the diesel and the caboose trading ends of the train. Later (late sixties) the RR ran back-to-back EMD switchers so there was always an engine pointing forward at the head of the train; before that the diesel (an FM H-10-44, Baldwin VO-1000 or DRS-6-6-1500) had to run backwards either going up the branch or coming back down.

[NittanyLion]

I can scan the map for you later, but my go-to railroad on tiny operations (Bellefonte Central) faced this exact scenario.  When they wanted to go into State College PA, there wasn't enough available land for much more than a three track yard and a station.  After the 15 mile or so run south from Bellefonte, they constructed a wye.  There was a runaround track, sand and water, and I think coal on the wye.  The wye was three or four miles southwest of State College.  Bellefonte to State College trains would turn around on the wye and back into State College.  THey did this the entire history of the railroad.

[jmbjmb]

I grew up at the end of a SR branch in South Carolina.  There were no  turning facilities available so the engine ran backwards one way or the other.  Nor was there an abondoned line.  Just the end of the line.  Interestingly, there was also no turning ability (wye) at the mainline junction, just a switch, so the train also had to run backward on that leg as well until it reached the terminal.  Total run was about 30 miles each way.  The good news is I was able to use the fact the prototype did it to solve my space problem  on my branch.

[Flashwave]

I read a story somewhere too of a branch that had a turning facility, but it was a couple of miles back up the track

You might take a look at the PROTO 0-8-0, that's the kind of modified tender and backing light we're talking about.

[R. T. POTEET]

It seems to me that you have answered your own question i.e. you don't want a turntable, don't have room for a wye, and are going to operate a Geep which functions well in either direction as your branchline locomotive.

You could probably run your Geep backwards(?) all the way to Greensboro but if you did want to turn it Climax is a good place to put a wye.

[Flashwave]

Yeah, but the niche to the plan is he wants to consider steam era history as well.

[WaxonWaxov]

It seems to me that you have answered your own question i.e. you don't want a turntable, don't have room for a wye, and are going to operate a Geep which functions well in either direction as your branchline locomotive.

You could probably run your Geep backwards(?) all the way to Greensboro but if you did want to turn it Climax is a good place to put a wye.

At this point in my life, Ramseur will be a shelf layout and so will Climax. No room in either place.

I think I will go with no turn-around, though.

 

[tgindy]

I simply don't have room for a wye turn-around since this town will be on a shelf only 24" deep.

It is O.K. to model "Proto-lancing" which means you are "in the prototype neighborhood" so to speak.

Take a peek at this TerraServer satellite picture of the former Pennsy 4-track mainline (now Norfolk Southern 3-track mainline) at Tunnel Hill and Gallitzin, Pennsylvania.  The mainline goes across TerraServer from the east (from Horseshoe Curve) to the west (toward Johnstown).

http://www.terraserverusa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=17&X=442&Y=2801&W=1&qs=|Gallitzin|PA|

Note, how the mainline splits into - two - on either side of Gallitzin.

Do you see on the left of the map where Helper Units coming from Horseshoe Curve have - a wye-like/curve-back - for the return trip to Altoona?  There are also mainline crossovers before the mainline splits to go into the eastern tunnels.

North East Rails has photographs of Tunnel Hill and Gallitzin...

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/gallitzin.html

Query:  What if you split your mainline, and then placed a similar wye turn-around at one of your empty layout corner ends?

You would have the scenic "wye" perspective, and engine(s) could be stored on the unused tracks.  In the prototype there is even a tower at the turn-around.

This is a classic John Armstrong layout technique with a junction-effect that clearly goes into the world beyond the layout.  Also, don't let the tunnels throw you off, since the layout design doesn't need the tunnels.

In planning for the N Scale CR&T, the layout proto-lances the "Gallitzin-effect" where helix tunnel(s) enter & leave the upper level of the two level layout, and; there will even be a rural railfanning highway bridge inspired by the prototype.

With a 24" shelf, N Scale does have a a wider curve radius space advantage over HO Scale.

[IRONROOSTER]

The Ma&Pa had a branch to Dallastown that had no turning facility.  Northbound passenger trains headed up the branch and backed down, south bound just the opposite.  Not sure what the freights did, but backing up would have been easier for switching.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Mark300]

Do you know what the other lines in the area did at the end of the line?  Many times steamers would run around, and pull the train back to the main line.  Some were outfitted with large back up lights for this purpose.

 I agree with WSOR.  Alot of RR shortline's trains would be pulled by steam backwards since pushing forward 'blind' with no radio, visible flag or a way of seeing the track conditions directly was flaunting working rules and was very dangerous.

I know the WMRy did this when they took over the C&Pa in the 1940s.  Heck, even Steamtown Nat'l Park in Scranton and the Stroudsburg RR both here in PA do it this way today since they have no way of turning the locomotive.

It can be an interesting kind of operation.

Hope this helps...

 

Mark Wallace

Collegeville, PA 

[dante]

I know the WMRy did this when they took over the C&Pa in the 1940s.  Heck, even Steamtown Nat'l Park in Scranton and the Stroudsburg RR both here in PA do it this way today since they have no way of turning the locomotive.

But Steamtown does have a turntable.

[MStLfan]

It seems that you are after a scenic effect rather than real operating potential.

You can do it in two ways: fake a wye by having 2 tracks deadending at the aisle side, the third switch is not modeled.

Or, your railroad was so spacestarved that instead of having a main and siding ending in the usual manner (a switch), it used a turntable in the location of that switch.

Now, for the scenic effect you want do not model the turntable itself but the pit and fill it in partially. On the fill you have the new switch with new ballast while the rest of the track has old ballast. This way you have a quick and dirty rebuild of the end of the station with reminder of the past and no complete demolishing of old things that maybe would have cost too much for your railroad.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[wjstix]

You could always build it without the turntable, but leave room for it if you later decide to add it. It wouldn't be unusual for a branchline to end at a turntable (usually an unpowered "armstrong" one) in the middle of nowhere. (You don't have to have a roundhouse or engine facilities just because to have a turntable.) But there are many many instances of prototype steam-era branchlines where a steam engine ran backwards when pulling a train because there were no turning facilities.

BTW, since the engine would always face the same way, you might look into getting something like a two-truck Shay as the steam power. Lots of gears whizzing around, and worked well in either direction.

[Flashwave]

I know the WMRy did this when they took over the C&Pa in the 1940s.  Heck, even Steamtown Nat'l Park in Scranton and the Stroudsburg RR both here in PA do it this way today since they have no way of turning the locomotive.

But Steamtown does have a turntable.

In Scranton yes, but not at the other end of the excursions.