Shelf layout track plan critique requested....NEW DESIGN ON PAGE 2

[WaxonWaxov]

Hi folks,

It's time to get out of the armchair and build something.

This 2x8foot shelf (HO) will be the first piece of my eventual large layout. This shelf will represent the town of Climax, North Carolina (see main layout map below)

Like I said, 2x8 foot, the squares on the design are 6". All #6 turnouts.

and here is the main layout map...

thanks

EDIT: I'm sorry. I wrote this original post above at about 1am....

I should specify that YES I do plan on having 'extenders' on both ends of the above shelf layout so I can have room to do run-arounds.

On the right I will have a 24" wide by about 36" tall (as viewed from the angle of the above diagram) In that section, the two diverging lines will go into 18" curves (I know I know) that slope into one another at a turn out then the 'permanent' part of that shelf will end. That's where removable staging (cassettes) will attach when operating.

On the left, there will be a removable section about 24" wide that also has cassette staging.

Therefore I can model trains going on the mainline between Sanford and Greensboro and trains going between Greensboro and Ramseur. Note that in the "finished" layout Greensboro will be the home of the large yard of the layout.

Eventually, in the "finished" layout, the tracks above marked as "to Sanford" will go into staging to represent the continuation of the 'mainline' of this branchline to the main of the ACL in Fayetteville (see above) The tracks marked "to Ramseur" will continue on the layout to Ramseur which will be the home of a major indsutry (probably a textile mill.) The tracks marked "to Greensboro will also continue on the layout.

ADDITIONS: I am undecided as to whether or not I want to try to cram another industry into this shelf.. maybe a fuel oil dealer in the lower left-hand corner... not sure how I'd connet to it though.

 

EDIT ENDED

[Jetrock]

From the look of things, you won't actually be able to use the layout until you build more of it: there isn't enough room at either end of the runaround track to actually run a locomotive and a car around. I'd suggest either making the runaround shorter or the shelf longer, in order to allow you to operate the first phase as its own layout. Especially if your plan is to start with a small shelf layout and build it larger, it's nice to be able to operate right away.

Aside from that, you have enough room to do some fun switching from the mainline. If you have room for cassettes or other temporary "extenders" onto the end of the 2x8 section you could use it as-is (plus cassettes) but it would probably be simpler to make room for proper runaround moves on the first section.

[WaxonWaxov]

From the look of things, you won't actually be able to use the layout until you build more of it: there isn't enough room at either end of the runaround track to actually run a locomotive and a car around....

See EDIT in the original post above.. thanks.

[ChrisNH]

ADDITIONS: I am undecided as to whether or not I want to try to cram another industry into this shelf.. maybe a fuel oil dealer in the lower left-hand corner... not sure how I'd connet to it though.

Consider instead increading the size and scope of the existing industry. Perhaps the furniture factory has its own power plant?

What era is your layout going to be?

Chris

 

[ereimer]

i like the plan , there's plenty of activity in a fairly small space , and future addons will just make it better . looks like you have a vision of what you want to do and you're planning it one small chunk at a time . very interesting !

i suppose you could add another industry , you'd have to add a turnout just before you get to the team tracks and use one leg of the team track as a switchback . could get to be a pain if there are cars stored there .

 

is this branch freelanced / protolanced ? i couldn't find anything on it using google so assume it never existed . are the towns and other railroads real ?

 

ernie

[dehusman]

Looks good to me if you have some sort of tail tracks on each leg.  I wouldn't add any additional industries unless you were modeling a very urban environment.  Anything outside of a major industrial center, I would leave as is. 

I would also consider which end of the siding I would want to extend Six a 5 or 6 ft siding won't be that big if you put it on a larger layout.  Don't change it now,  just plan buildings and scenery knowing tha the siding will eventually go 4 feet to the right, for example.

One issue is that it doesn't look like you have room for a depot of any size.  Take the footprint of the depot and add an inch or two all around for the platform and canopy.

Dave H.

[WaxonWaxov]

What era is your layout going to be?
Chris

1953

i like the plan , there's plenty of activity in a fairly small space , and future addons will just make it better . looks like you have a vision of what you want to do and you're planning it one small chunk at a time . very interesting !

thanks!

i suppose you could add another industry , you'd have to add a turnout just before you get to the team tracks and use one leg of the team track as a switchback . could get to be a pain if there are cars stored there .

I think I've decided another industry would be too much. Climax was (is) a small town.

is this branch freelanced / protolanced ? i couldn't find anything on it using google so assume it never existed . are the towns and other railroads real ?

ernie

Protolanced.

You can read about it here... www.EricCable.net/railroad

or here... http://cs.trains.com/forums/1498535/ShowPost.aspx

Basically, it's an old short line that was purchased by the ACL (before it was called the ACL) but then sold to the Southern who discontinued it in 1950. I am modeling as if it stayed part of the ACL.

One issue is that it doesn't look like you have room for a depot of any size.  Take the footprint of the depot and add an inch or two all around for the platform and canopy.

Dave H.

Point taken. I will point-out that I plan on only using RDC's for passenger traffic on this railroad. Also, what is not clear in the above post is that the depot building will be right about where the words 'Express Freight Track' are above. The yellow shaded area will be the platform.. kinda wedge shaped.

thanks for all the comments, guys!

 

 

[markpierce]

Hi, Waxon.  Here are my suggestions.

1.  The express track should be double-ended so it can easily easily accessed in both directions.  Passenger trains shouldn't be delayed by making extra switching moves.  So, I'd eliminate the express spur (or house track) and designate the double-ended spur you already have as the express spur.  You probably consider that double-ended spur as a passing siding, but it is likely too short to be effective in that role.  It could still be used as a run-around track for local freights, but trains could be organized so that this wouldn't be necessary.  For example, eastbound trains would switch the furniture factory, and westbound incoming and outgoing cars can be left on the express spur switched by eastbound trains.

2.  Provide more room for the depot area.  This is accomplished by eliminating the express spur and increasing the angle at which the Ramseur track leaves the mainline.  Increasing the angle would necessitate changing the direction of the team tracks.  Eliminating the as-drawn express track would also give Ramseur trains more access to the depot.

3.  Trucks need better access to the team tracks.  As planned only one of two tracks have access, and that is only from one side.  If there isn't room for access to both tracks, eliminate one of the tracks.

4.  Don't permanently install the furniture industry spurs until you have decided upon the exact footprint of the industry.  Also, consider a double-ended spur for that industry and/or the team track so that switching can be done from two directions.

5.  Consider using  #5 turnouts on some spurs to increase track capacity and reduce repetitive appearances.  #5s can handle virtually all freight cars and locomotives.  I'd keep the junction and run-around tracks at least #6s, but would consider a #7 or 8 for the junction turnout as trains would move through it at speed.  This would necessitate a gentle curve(s) on the Ramseur track to maintain/increase space for the depot.  This would have a desirable cosmetic effect by introducing some non-straight track on this module.

That's my .

Mark

 

[WaxonWaxov]

thanks Mark.

Good points and info.

[steinjr]

Hi folks,

It's time to get out of the armchair and build something.

This 2x8foot shelf (HO) will be the first piece of my eventual large layout. This shelf will represent the town of Climax, North Carolina (see main layout map below)

Like I said, 2x8 foot, the squares on the design are 6". All #6 turnouts.

 Hmm - first a cosmetic comment: don't let the tracks go straight off from the turnouts. Let them curve gently away from the turnouts - it breaks up the angular look.

 

 Looks like you maybe is using XtrakCad. XtrkCad trick to curve away from turnouts: chose modify on the right click menu - then drag with  left mouse button if you want to extend track at the same angle you are at, and drag with right mouse button down if you want to be able to change the angle as you draw. Make curves much longer than you need to get the curve radius you want, then either use modify-left drag or properties to cut back the length again, while keeping the angle. Counter-intuitive, but it works.

 Anyways - how about if you move the double ended siding to above the main by the depot, instead of between the main and the depot, and then let the furniture plant sidings extend from the siding instead of from the Greensboro-Sanford main ?

 That makes the double ended track serve three-four purposes:
   - it can be a double ended siding for meets (short trains - like a GP7 + 6-7 40-footers)
   - it can be used to bypass a passenger train at the depot on the Sanford main
   - it is part of the access for switching the furniture plant
   - it can be used for temporary storage of cars exchanged between the two mainlines

 The Sanford main past the depot then serves as:
   - the mainline to Sanford (staging)
   - passenger trains to Sanford
   - runaround for local industries and for getting cars bound for Ramseur 

 I would use a long wye-turnout instead of a straight turnou at the junction between the Sanford and Ramseur branches.

 Wye turnouts allows the tracks to diverge from each other more rapidly than a straight turnout.

 Would maybe introduce a speed restriction on both mains through town - instead of on just for trains taking the diverging route to Ramseur in your plan - but that is not necessarily a problem.

 From the wye, use a gentle S-curve to get the branch to Ramseur far enough down to give room for a proper depot area. In the drawing below I have an 88" radius curve going into a 44" radius curve. 

 Like Mark, I would drop the express freight track. Or if you want one, put another siding off the double ended siding above the Sanford main. Otherwise the depot area in the lower right hand corner gets too crowded.

 How about if you flip the direction of the team tracks so they extend off the main towards the left (like the furniture plant)  ? Then all local switching in town can be done from the right hand side.

 8 foot length is not a lot. We can't afford to waste any space. When placing turnouts, I first decided on train lengths that would be switched around in town. I decided that I needed to as much as possible allow switching of one short road engine (like a GP7) and three 40-foot cars without having to run off the layout into staging.

 - The length of the two spurs for the furntiture factory now are long enough for three cars.

 - The turnout that leads off the double ended siding towards the furnityre factory is moved far enough to the left to allow room for a short road engine (or a switcher) and three 40-foot cars to switch the furnityre factory without fouling the main.

 - Each of the two team tracks have room for three 40-foot cars.

 - There is room for three cars on the gentle S-curce on the Ramseur branch between the junction and the turnout to the team tracks.

 - There is enough room on the Ramseur main to the right of the turnout to the team tracks for a road engine and three cars.

 It should allow you enough to do some simple switching on either one of the two mainlines (but not move cars between the two mainlines) without setting up any of the staging extenders.

 Here is the suggestion in a drawing:

  

 

  If you want to be able to also move a couple of cars between the two mains without using any of the extensions, you could move the leftmost turnout for the double ended siding to the right, to the depot side of the Y-turnout for the junction - gives you room for a short road engine and two 40-foot cars to the left of the Y-turnout, at the cost of cutting down the length of your double ended siding. Like this:

 

 I wouldn't do so if you are planning to extend it later, though - you will that double ended siding to be as long as possible.

 With all the extensions in place, this could be a quite interesting little junction town. 

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[markpierce]

Stein said "...... Anyways - how about if you move the double ended siding to above the main by the depot, instead of between the main and the depot, and then let the furniture plant sidings extend from the siding instead of from the Greensboro-Sanford main ?......."

If this double-ended siding is to serve primarily as an express/house track, it should be between the mainline and the station.  That was commonly done at small-town depots, leastwise for the Southern Pacific RR.  That way, express and lcl wouldn't have to be carried across the mainline.  If it is to be a passing siding (which I don't recommend), it would be on the opposite side.

Mark

 

[steinjr]

Stein said "...... Anyways - how about if you move the double ended siding to above the main by the depot, instead of between the main and the depot, and then let the furniture plant sidings extend from the siding instead of from the Greensboro-Sanford main ?......."

If this double-ended siding is to serve primarily as an express/house track, it should be between the mainline and the station.  That was commonly done at small-town depots, leastwise for the Southern Pacific RR.  That way, express and lcl wouldn't have to be carried across the mainline.  If it is to be a passing siding (which I don't recommend), it would be on the opposite side.

Mark

 

 

 Hmmm - how about something like this ?

 

 Stein

 

 

 

[dehusman]

The greensboro switch looks really funky (might be the CAD program), but it just looks unsmooth (?).  Maybe put a curve in around the Ramsuer main switch?

Just for variation I would put one of the furniture tracks into the furniture building.

Dave H.

[steinjr]

The greensboro switch looks really funky (might be the CAD program), but it just looks unsmooth (?).  Maybe put a curve in around the Ramsuer main switch?

Just for variation I would put one of the furniture tracks into the furniture building.

Dave H.

 That switch looks funky, and putting one track into the building is a cool idea.

 How about something like this ?

  

 Stein

 

[markpierce]

The greensboro switch looks really funky (might be the CAD program), but it just looks unsmooth (?).  Maybe put a curve in around the Ramsuer main switch?

Just for variation I would put one of the furniture tracks into the furniture building.

Dave H.

 That switch looks funky, and putting one track into the building is a cool idea.

 How about something like this ?

  

 Stein

Hmmmm.  Smaller communities didn't normally have separate passenger and freight depots.  The norm was to have a combination depot.  Therefore, there is no need for the freight depot spur and building given the owner's vista.  Hope we're getting there.  That is, the layout's owner has some good meat to chew on.

Mark

[steinjr]

That is, the layout's owner has some good meat to chew on.

 Hope so. At least we have bandied around quite a few ideas - both on prototype practices, design considerations and variation on his original design.

 He can grab from that pile what he wants and drop what he doesn't want/need. In the end, the final design decisions has to be made by the person whose layout it is.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[WaxonWaxov]

Hey Guys,

Thanks a lot for the suggestions! I will take a deeper look at them this weekend. Unfortunately, due the the "IT ***" here at work I am unable to see the pictures Stein has embedded... not a big deal, like I said I will look at them this evening.

By the way, I'm using a program called "3D Railroad Concept and Design" by Abracadata which is OLD. I'm not surprised the tunrouts "look funky" and I don't trust anything this porgram gives me.. it's just for ideas at this point. I'm going to upgrade to xTrakCad or 3rdPlanit very soon... probably by the time I post the next draft of this design.

OK, Stupid Question: How long in inches is a 40' boxcar? I know that the 1/87 rule makes it about 5.5 inches, but how long with coulplers?

 

[Beach Bill]

is this branch freelanced / protolanced ? i couldn't find anything on it using google so assume it never existed . are the towns and other railroads real ?  ernie

 

Just an update:  I just drove through there on Wednesday (Aug. 13) and the exit sign for Climax, NC was still there on Route 220.  Been there a long time; will be there a long time to come.  There is sometimes a variance between on-line information and reality.  I've met a bunch of folks from Climax (they visit down here at the beach) and they were real.

Bill

[steinjr]

OK, Stupid Question: How long in inches is a 40' boxcar? I know that the 1/87 rule makes it about 5.5 inches, but how long with coulplers?

 Depends on what kind of 40-foot car it is - what was nominally a 40 foot car could vary quite a bit in internal and external length - here is an older thread about this:

 http://cs.trains.com/forums/1433111/ShowPost.aspx

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[markpierce]

OK, Stupid Question: How long in inches is a 40' boxcar? I know that the 1/87 rule makes it about 5.5 inches, but how long with coulplers?

 Depends on what kind of 40-foot car it is - what was nominally a 40 foot car could vary quite a bit in internal and external length - here is an older thread about this:

 http://cs.trains.com/forums/1433111/ShowPost.aspx

 Smile,
 Stein

The rule-of-thumb is 6 inches.  I just measured three random 40' boxcars (two Westerfields and a brass import), stretched with Kadee #5 couplers, and they measured 18 and 1/4 inches from coupler face to coupler face.  That results in an average of 6 and 1/12 inches per boxcar.

Mark

[steinjr]

is this branch freelanced / protolanced ? i couldn't find anything on it using google so assume it never existed . are the towns and other railroads real ?

 Hmmm - got curious in passing and went a-googling.

 I found quite a few hits on search term

    Climax North Carolina,

 among them this web site for someone who is compiling data to build a model train layout set in this area:

 http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/towns/index.htm

 Might be useful info for Waxon on those pages. Like this drawing of David Bott's plans for his Atlantic and Yadkin layout - Climax on the right end, Ramseur at bottom:

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/models/design_images/C034_David_Bott_AandY_203_lg.jpg

Grin,
Stein

 

[WaxonWaxov]

 among them this web site for someone who is compiling data to build a model train layout set in this area:

 http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/towns/index.htm

 Might be useful info for Waxon on those pages. Like this drawing of David Bott's plans for his Atlantic and Yadkin layout - Climax on the right end, Ramseur at bottom:

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/models/design_images/C034_David_Bott_AandY_203_lg.jpg

Grin,
Stein

 

 

Yes. If you visit my site (http://www.ericcable.net/railroad) you'll see I give an acknowledgement to David and link to his site.

Thanks for all your input on this thread, Stein.

I am right now climbing the learning curve for xTrakCad and will be working out the latest and greatest for my Climax, NC shelf, which will be damned close to one of the suggestions above.

[BigRusty]

If you are going to run only an RDC for passenger traffic then you won't need the express track.

 Budd will void your waranty if you tow a trailer with their RDC. The New Haven tried it.

 You can use one of the combine RDCs with a baggage compartment.

Just want to keep you out of trouble wth Budd

[WaxonWaxov]

If you are going to run only an RDC for passenger traffic then you won't need the express track.

 Budd will void your waranty if you tow a trailer with their RDC. The New Haven tried it.

 You can use one of the combine RDCs with a baggage compartment.

Just want to keep you out of trouble wth Budd

That's a good point. I may run an F-7 with a couple coaches yet.. I'll decide eventually.

 

[WaxonWaxov]

New design:

Note that there will be sufficient extenders in place so I did not feel the need to leave room on the ends.

I kept the express track and made a better representaton of the depot platforms.

I added a new industry: a heating oil distributor on the lower right. That track also has room for 'storage' of three or four cars. I was able to get this in by havng it cross the track leading to the team tracks as you can see.

This re-work is done using all Peco code 75 turnouts and crossing.

The Y's at either end of the mainline are 'large radius' y's.

The turnouts on the ends of the siding are 'medium radius'

The other turnouts and y's are 'small radius'

let me know what you think.

:)

 

 

[ChrisNH]

Looks like a nice improvement!

Normally I would suggest not haveing the mainline go through the curved portion of a turnout but I don't see a way around it and I would imagine a large radius Y would not be much of an issue.

Chris

[ereimer]

is this branch freelanced / protolanced ? i couldn't find anything on it using google so assume it never existed . are the towns and other railroads real ?  ernie

 

Just an update:  I just drove through there on Wednesday (Aug. 13) and the exit sign for Climax, NC was still there on Route 220.  Been there a long time; will be there a long time to come.  There is sometimes a variance between on-line information and reality.  I've met a bunch of folks from Climax (they visit down here at the beach) and they were real.

Bill

 

hehe that's good to know . i guess my question was unclear . what i did was google the Yadkin Valley Branch and got nothing . i didn't look at a map to see if the towns existed

thanks for the info though

ernie

[WaxonWaxov]

hehe that's good to know . i guess my question was unclear . what i did was google the Yadkin Valley Branch and got nothing . i didn't look at a map to see if the towns existed

thanks for the info though

ernie

That's because the Yadkin Valley Branch is a figment of my imagination. \

You can see the whole concept for my pike at www.EricCable.net/railroad

 

 

[Don Z]

My suggestion is to rework the lead going to the 2 tracks at the furniture factory. Change the 2nd right hand turnout to a left hand turnout and you'll eliminate the S curve you've created. The diverging leg coming from the siding track can then shoot straight back and curve next to the building.

Don Z.

[WaxonWaxov]

My suggestion is to rework the lead going to the 2 tracks at the furniture factory. Change the 2nd right hand turnout to a left hand turnout and you'll eliminate the S curve you've created. The diverging leg coming from the siding track can then shoot straight back and curve next to the building.

Don Z.

Yea. I see what you're saying. Thanks.