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Curved Back Drops in Corners. Essential, Preferred or Not?

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Curved Back Drops in Corners. Essential, Preferred or Not?
Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 6:37 PM
As I approach my back drop decisions, I've wondered if curved cornered back drops are the majority
and if they're considered essential by most board members.
I can think of 4 "camps" that are likely...those who think:

l. They're the only way to go for permanent layouts to be most realistic.
Due to some mid wall protrusions they're essential. (mid wall corners, pipes, whatever...)

2. They're preferred but due to money, time, ease of painting backdrop directly on existing walls,
leaving wall corners as is, was the way to go.

3. Rather not give up the bench top "real estate" so left the corners.

4. The corners bother me/I never notice them anymore visitors never mention them.

I'm agonizing over whether or not to curve 'em or not. It'll be cheaper and faster not to, but
not sure if I'll regret it later or not even care once other things are underway like running and operations.

What's the general consensus amongst our board population?

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by Don Z on Saturday, August 9, 2008 6:45 PM

Captain, my Captain,

I guess I belong in camp #1. The curve of the backdrop eliminates (in my opinion) the hard line created by the two vertical planes meeting in the corners. I used 1/8" thick Masonite for my backdrop and have curved it as tight as about a 10" radius. I wouldn't try to go any tighter, or you'll hear a mysterious "Crack" come from your layout a few hours later. Don't ask me how I know.....Whistling [:-^]

Don Z.

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 7:04 PM
Hello again Don! I'm leaning towards curved if I can't get the old glue/caulking and foam bits (former recording studio room) off the walls and go with back drops.
What was your most successful (after trial and error ;-) method for wetting down the masonite for the curvature. I always read about spraying it down but never how wet and for how long, etc.

Oh, yeah, I meant to ask in my thread starter post, has anyone had good luck with galvanized sheet metal back drops. It seems like paint adhesion is always tough to achieve with galvanized metal...

I want to use masonite but 48" widths seems to be the only size ever manufactured according to several lumber yards I've asked to call their
suppliers...I sure could use 5'X9'ers. (I want to go all the way up to the ceiling).

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, August 9, 2008 7:31 PM

I think I'm in #2 camp, I cove when I can, but if its going to significantly limit the real estate, I will go with a square corner.

Dave H.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by tgindy on Saturday, August 9, 2008 7:54 PM

Curved backdrops are usually preferrable.

Even if you have a canopy of trees rising up into the corner - this tree canopy wiill meet the horizon which in the prototype still lacks square corners.

Consider the "larger picture" of the railroad mainline scenery merging into the distant backdrop.

To me, living in the middle of the rolling mountaintops of Westcentral Pennsylvania, it is the prototype of "the immediate" that blends into the "far distant horizon," that is to be strived for in the planned backdrop for the CR&T - which is linoleum with the finished side toward the walls.

My primary diorama/backdrop resource is Robert Schleicher's "Scenery for Model Railroads, Dioramas and Miniatures" where he also illustrates 2-3 backdrop layers (ex: immediate then mountaintop then sky) which adds 1-2 backdrop inches to provide a greater forced perspective and depth of horizon:

http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=BOOK&MO=7&YR=1999&output=3 

Another way to look at your backdrop and layout is to employ Allan McClellend's philosophy from the "Virginian & Ohio" where he used Good Enough Standards as opposed to taking things too quickly, or being a perfectionist.

Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956

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Posted by Don Z on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:18 PM

Capt.,

I didn't wet or dampen the Masonite I used for the backdrop. Since it was only 1/8" thick, it was very flexible. I suppose if I had dampened it, I might have been able to curve it as tight as a 6" radius, but I also think when you start curving the backdrop that tight, it starts to look like a hard corner again. If you want the backdrop to go all the way to your ceiling, maybe you can simply build your benchwork 1 foot higher, or fill the gap between benchwork and backdrop with scenery....rolling hills sloping up from the track to the backdrop. Just a thought...

Don Z.

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Posted by Grampys Trains on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:41 PM
Hi Capt.: Here's my two cents worth: If you take a good look at some of the photos posted in this forum,  I think you'll notice the layouts with curved corners vs. ones without. An alternative material is linoleum runner, back side out. Depending on the size of your layout, a roll of runner will cover your whole back drop in one piece, including the corners.  It can be bent into a very small radius, and takes paint very well. One coat of primer and one coat of paint. So, I'm definitely in the 1 camp. Just my opinion.
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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:42 PM
Cool. Thanks Don. I'm considering leaving 7" bare at the bottom for now. I have plenty of places that'll have Mountainous areas and retaining walls, etc. but it needs to wait until I get the track laid and run for awhile to work out any bugs to be sure where things will go and I'd just hoped to have a more finished look from the "get go".

Do you think it would be possible to get your 10" radius at the corners if I nail the masonite directly to the walls rather than 2X2s or 1X2s? with 8' room width that would take up more valuable real estate than the corners would. Thanks for all of your recent helpful advice. What a nice guy! Once I'm more
experienced I hope to be equally helpful to others.

I've considered adding a 7" strip of masonite at the bottom and taping and mudding the seam but I'm concerned that it'll be more trouble than it's worth and may leave more chance of the seam showing through but may try it. (I'd like to get a back drop up before building the benchwork.

Linoleum appeals as long runs and large widths are available for maybe as little as one seam total.
I've read Dave Crary's scenery book. I'm wondering how much vinyl type smells will stay present for
a long period of time. My room has no windows or other ventilation other than the entry doorway.
It would curve easily as well.

Painting the walls would of course be simplest and cheapest (by almost $200) and fastest but I'm thinking the corners may permanently bug me. It's also a little hard to know how much corner layout real estate to
give up before the track actually gets laid and I see if the plan translates to 3D as expected. I definitely
prefer to get the back drop up before the bench work gets built if I can manage that. That's why I
would like to get the backdrop below the expected minumum level of the future bench work and was
hoping to find 5' width masonite. Linoleum would allow that but I like wood/wood products.

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by Don Z on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:51 PM

Capt.,

In this photo, you'll see the tightest curves in my backdrop. All of my backdrop was attached directly to the walls with a small bead of latex caulk adhesive and then I used my brad nailer to attach the backdrop at each stud in the wall. I did float the joints with wall compound and then sanded them before painting my backdrop.

Don Z.

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:52 PM
Hi Grampy.
Well, I LOVE your layout from the pics I've seen here. Some of the nicest scenery anywhere. Right up there with the famous magazine legends. If you have any additional advice regarding your linoleum prodecures
I'd be all ears.

Do you have a site for your layout? I would like to see a lot more pics of it anyway. I asked once before in
another thread but with all of the house remodeling and visiting relatives of late, I lost track...
If it's too much info. please feel free to PM me?

I'd like to know if you attatched your linoleum directly to the walls without furring strips or other frame work and what thickness you used. Is 1/8" the most common as with masonite? Any vinyl smells ongoing
or just the usual paint smells? :-)
Thanks!

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 8:57 PM
Oops our posts just crossed in the ether, Don. Excellent pic. Really shows dramatically the direct comparison between corners and curved back drop corners. I'm completely convinced now! I assume the city is a photo back drop?
It looks fantastic! Thank you for the demonstration/comparison. Most curved corner
scenes I've seen have been rural. I'm planning on an urban area so this brought the point home that
the vertical city scenery will possibly make 90 degree corners even more evident than country scenery...
Now I've just got to choose between materials and widths for back drop material.
Doesn't seem like sheet metal is used very often.

I have a wall "jut" one each side of the room. One half of the room was 8'X8' while the other half
was six inches wider on one side and 4 1/2" on the other. Those mid wall "juts" started me thinking I
might need curves even more than the actual corners did.

Seeing as there will be a sort of "Z to "S" shape to these curves I'm wondering if linoleum might be
easiest for these compound (I think that's the term) curvatures... might be a bit tight for double bending
masonite that tightly...

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by Don Z on Saturday, August 9, 2008 9:09 PM

The backdrop photo is an E-Z Kut product from www.backdropwarehouse.com. The left side has been blended into a hillside and I plan on having the area directly in front of the cityscape occupied by an industry.

Don Z.

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Posted by cowman on Saturday, August 9, 2008 9:21 PM

I'd vote for a curved backdrop. 

As I glanced at some of the other posts I didn't see a couple of alternative materials that I have seen mentioned in other threads, that is aluminum roof flashing and sheet styrene. They are both thin and can be easily blended in to whatever you use for your straight sections, if you don't use them for the whole thing.  The flashing comes in rolls of various widths, check with your local hardware store or lumberyard.  Sheet styrene can be found at sign shops in 4x8 sheets, they'd probably sell you a smaller piece if that was all you needed.

Good luck,

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 9:38 PM
thanks again for your recent help and advice, cowman,
I'd been searching for styrene sheets north of Seattle with no luck. I'll try sign shops! I did forget to mention styrene in my list of considered materials. I feel comfortable with styrene having glued up
many a building model by now. I have acess to sheet metal but after trying to keep paint on aluminum anyway, I'm not sure I have confidence in keeping it on sheet metal and would like to hear what's involved with etching it lst or whatever is needed.

Don Z. I've looked at their site. I'd say you definitely got your money's worth there! No kidding, it looks
awesome! I have a friend who test runs my new purchases on his layout who uses their Pacific N.W.
mountain scenery back drop and it looks great. I planned on buying from them once I get some mountains
buildings and retaining walls up so I know where they'll need to go, even though that's harder to apply them.

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by CSXDixieLine on Saturday, August 9, 2008 10:20 PM

You can also place me in camp #1, although like most "rules" there are exceptions. For example, I have a tricky area on my lower level where there is a doorway and I will need to implement a drop-down gate. Camp #1 protocol would call for the 1/8" Masonite backdrop to curve forward at the spot where the layout shelf "ends" and the gate begins. However, the shelf here is only 11" deep so I can't practically do this. The plan is to use just a regular corner, which will result in a visible corner in the sky. However, I plan on mitigating this by (1) placing a frontboard "shield" vertically across the front of the edge here so that the corner can not be viewed straight on and (2) by obscuring as much of the corner as possible with a vertical structure. As it turns out, at this very spot on the prototype, there is a tall water tower that looks like the one in the picture below (how convenient!).

Also, I know some modelers that forego the curved corner in exchange for more real estate for special scenes, but again some other technique such as a smokestack or water tower is usually employed to hide the corner.

Jamie

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Posted by stebbycentral on Saturday, August 9, 2008 10:49 PM

As improbable as it may seem, I've had good results with plain old posterboard.  The thicker kind, about 1/16th of an inch thick.  I attached it to the wall panneling with double-sided tape and the odd nail here and there.  Obviously it's very easy to curve the corners using this material. The finish is a wallpaper that I stumbled across at the local home center; skyblue with clouds.

I have figured out what is wrong with my brain!  On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!

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Posted by Grampys Trains on Saturday, August 9, 2008 11:02 PM
Hi Capt.:Thank you for your kind reply. I got the idea of using linoleum runner from Dave Frary's book, "REALISTIC MODEL RAILROAD SCENERY". This book is from the early 80's. My layout is in my basement. I built 2x4 sub walls against the block walls. I then nailed furring strips to them. My bench work was already up.  I spaced them: one at the top, one at the top of my bench, and one in the middle, (all horizontal). Then, I stapled one end of the runner where the back drop was going to start, then set the roll on my bench and unrolled it for a short distance, stapled the linoleum to the furring strips, keeping slight tension, so it would lay flat, and continued on till I reached a corner. I made corner supports out of 3/8 " plywood.  They were basically a triangle with the radius I wanted cut with a sabre saw on the long side.  I used three for each corner, spaced the same as the furring strips. They really didn't have to support much, just to keep the cove equal from top to bottom. I then continued all the way around the layout. Then I used spackle to cover the staples, (it doesn't take much to cover them and very little sanding). This back drop has been up for about 4 yrs. now with no problems. After the back drop was up, I used 1/4' luan plywood for the ceiling over the layout.  I caulked the joint with paintable caulk. I painted it blue at first, and then I read somewhere that it should be white, (to reflect light down on the layout, scenery, trees, bushes, ground foam, etc. absorbs a lot of light).  I then put on a coat of Kilz primer, and then a coat of latex paint, blue and white and mixed. IMHO, I don't care much for clouds, just thin wispy looking streaks from brushing on the paint.  Oh, the 2x4 sub walls were mainly for space for insulation. Linoleum runner is less than a 1/16" thick, no lingering smell and my basement has one small window, which has a 2x4 wall between it and the layout. Just one of many good materials that may be used for a back drop.  I do have Photo Bucket albums, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to make the link to them clickable. I'd love to get a hint on how to do this. Edit: The Pennsylvania Line
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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, August 9, 2008 11:16 PM
Hi Grampy. Well, as soon as you find a way to post the link let me know! I've been drooling over your work for some time now. You deserve all accolades.

Dave Frary's book is the only one I have actually. I knew he (as you have) mounted his backdrop over studs
in a basement. Mine would be stapled directly to sheet rock and wooden walls. That's why I was wondering if I'd still need to make cove pieces.Sounds likely it'd be the same situation at the corners.

As I said, I planned on putting up the back drop lst, but If I use linoleum, it's great to know (and hadn't thought of it) that you can simply roll the roll along the bench top.

Thanks for letting me know about the lack of vinyl scent. Fresh in the stores is smelled strongly but it isn't as exposed to air as on a layout.

If you'd like to send me a photobucket link to my private email, let me know and I'll PM it to you.
If you'd rather wait and do it here on the boards I understand completely.

Thanks!

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:59 AM

Thanks to the scenic situation I model, I rather doubt that I'll have any visible backdrop at the inside corners of my around-the-wall benchwork.  The cedar-covered mountains tower over the railroad, the river and the rather sparse collection of rural structures, and my modeling will be true to that fact - forced-perspective in three dimensions, not painted on a vertical surface.

Actually, if I were to model the actual height of the mountains I'd have to rip the roof off the garage.  The peaks would tower over the streetlight at the corner of my property.

Chuck (modeling mountainous Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:01 PM

I coved all of the corners in my layout room, both inside and outside corners.  One way to get good results is through careful planning when finishing the room.   I used 1/2" drywall, applied vertically to take full advantage of the tapered edges for a smooth finish.  Anywhere that I planned to cove around a corner or other obstruction, I substituted 3/8" drywall for at least one stud spacing.  Then, curve your tape measure around the curve, from the edge of the 1/2" sheet on one wall to that on the other, in a rough approximation of the curve you want.  Cut the 1/8" Masonite to that width, then place the piece with the backside of one edge at the juncture of the 1/2" and 3/8" drywall sheets and press the centre towards the corner until the other edge "pops" into place.  I drilled clearance holes in the Masonite, and used a countersink on the face to accommodate regular drywall screws, then applied drywall mud and tape as you would for any regular drywall joint.  A couple of coats of flat latex "sky" paint finished the job.

Inside corners (the gap is for installation of a second level of the layout, and the un-drywalled area is for access to the power feed for more layout lighting):

Outside corners:

And a few views of what it looks like in a "normal" photo:

(the curve is towards the left edge in the first two pictures and towards the right in the last two) Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

Wayne 

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:02 PM

 Capt. Grimek wrote:

Oh, yeah, I meant to ask in my thread starter post, has anyone had good luck with galvanized sheet metal back drops. It seems like paint adhesion is always tough to achieve with galvanized metal...

I have used "Coil Metal".  That is the metal that builders use for bending and covering trim when putting vynal siding on a house.  It comes in 18 and 24 inch widths, in a 60 foot roll.  It also comes smooth or textured, and one or two different colors, one of which is white.  It is painted aluminum and is stiffer than regular flashing.  Painting with latex is not a problem.  You can also feather it into an existing wall with joint compound.  A local building supply place I go to sells it by the foot, but not all places do.  If you score it heavy a couple of times with a sharp utility knife, you can bend & break it without distorting the edges.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by donhalshanks on Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:36 PM

I used sheet styrene purchased from a plastics store in town.  I glued it over unfinished drywall.  I built the usual wood frame for the corners (often described in mags or on this forum) and the styrene sheet made great unbroken curves around the corners.  The styrene is easy to paint with bands of different shades of blue latex blended together.  Dark blue at the top to lighter degrees of blue to white at the bottom.  Very satisfied with the results.

Hal

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Posted by Mailman56701 on Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:32 PM

  I prefer curves.  Also, I just use the largest "For Sale" type signs I can find at a hardware store, etc.

  Made of a very flexible plastic, that is thick enough to be sturdy, etc.  The backside is white, so I use that side for paint.

   Works great, and you don't need to build some complicated curved framework for doing the same job with masonite, etc.

"Realism is overrated"
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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, September 13, 2008 1:06 AM
A very belated thank you everyone! I really appreciated the pics. Very very helpful! I've been busy on the other thread and with tree removal so hadn't gotten back to express my gratitude.

Any advice for using fiberglass tape over paper tape or vice versa?
Is tempered preferred for outside corners? Do you paint the smooth side or rough/crosshatched side on untempered? And finally how do you key the smooth tempered masonite for painting? Palm sander and a 60 or 80 grit sandpaper?

Anyone wetted masonite for bending?

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:11 PM

"Tempered" Masonite has been somehow treated to give the finished side a harder surface, and is not necessary for either backdrops or layout facia.  Regular Masonite curves just as well as the tempered variety, and there's no reason to wet it before bending:  in fact, it's probably not a good idea to wet it. Wink [;)]

Unless you're looking for some special effect,Confused [%-)] the smooth side should be the visible face.  As you can see in my third picture, posted earlier, un-tempered Masonite can be easily bent to a small radius:  the one on the layout facia is about 7", and it can be curved even more tightly.  However, for a backdrop, try to keep the curve as broad as possible to avoid a shadowed area in the corner.

If you install the Masonite corners as I described earlier, using countersunk drywall screws, it's easy to get a smooth, strong joint using paper drywall tape.  I first coat the joint with a generous application of drywall mud (I prefer the pre-mixed stuff), then apply the pre-wetted paper tape over the joint, pressing it into the mud.  Apply more mud over the tape, using a medium-width drywall knife, then firmly skim off the excess:  the outer extremities of the drywall knife should be resting on the bare wall and Masonite, with the "mudded" area no wider than 6" or so.  The biggest mistakes that us amateurs make is to apply too much mud, especially for the first coat, and then, for all coats, "work" it too much.  This initial application should be left for a couple of days, or until it's dry completely through and of a uniform colour.  I then used medium (150) grit sandpaper on a block of wood to knock off any high spots - there shouldn't be many of those - then apply more mud to any voids or low spots. It sometimes helps to apply the mud to a low area, then dip the knife in water, shaking most of it off, before attempting to smooth an area.  Don't overwork this coat - it will dry quickly, as it's thin, allowing you to make further refinements with the next application.  Repeat these steps until you're satisfied with the results.

For painting, I applied regular latex drywall primer, followed by one coat of "sky colour".  I used three shades of blue, all from the same base, with increasing amounts of white added for the sky as it nears the horizon.  This was applied "wet", using a roller, blending the colours where they met the next darkest shade.  Obviously, use the roller horizontally, not vertically.

Here's a link to a Layout (room) tour...with lots of photos to give you an idea of how it all turned out.

Wayne

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