Yard Plan, Suggestions and Comments Welcome

[N737AA]

Here are some pics of my updated yard arrangement.

 

[N737AA]

I am freelancing my Central States after the BNSF (former Frisco) Cherokee Sub (Springfield to Tulsa) and Creek Sub (Tulsa to Madill, Tx).  The TSU and SK&O are represented on my layout as well as Farmrail (on my layout they now operate the BNSF Avard sub (which passes thru your neck of the woods).

I grew up in St Louis, so it is hard to match that here in Tulsa, but yes there is some good railfanning here, the Port of Catoosa has an interesting flair to it and I am modeling a condedensed version of it as well.

The pics on my album are a bit dated and the yard has been reconfigured to the drawing I sent you.  The reconfiguration was the result of actually operating it.  Only then did I see what its short comings were.  I need to update the album to show the new yard configuration.

Regards,

[OKrlroads]

bnsf76

  One of the redesigns will use that idea. Did get a couple of books in and reading them now. Maybe this winter can get started on actually putting some track down.

Thanks!

[OKrlroads]

N737AA  Mike, just looked at your album, nice work!

 Also looked at your yard plan in album, so can see how you set it up. Lot of proto rail in Tulsa area to model, had thought about modelling some of that myself. Probably will freelance using elements local to Perry area, such as power plant at Sooner Lake, local grain and farm supplies, ect. Kinda got to stretch timeline some, late 50's into the 70's.

Are you going to model any of the SSR, SKOL, and TSU equipment?

 

[bnsf76]

Just some food for thought... You can gain some extra length on your body tracks by putting the turnouts on your ladder on a smaller angle (example: #6 turnouts on a ladder set on a #5 angle).

 BNSF76

[N737AA]

OK over by the BNSF Mainline.......I posted a pic of my yard layout in my previous post.  I can email it to you if you like.

 

 

[OKrlroads]

N737AA  About 85 miles straight west, Perry, OK

I got several redesigns on yard plan drawn up, still working on it.

Thanks for comments.

[N737AA]

Mr. Wilson,

Your design looks great!  I would suggest that you lay the trackwork and operate it for a while to simulate your operations and you will find the faults in it.  I have a very similar design except mine is double ended.  The most important aspect I found was being to access the A/D tracks from the drill track without fouling the main.  I believe you have that covered.  My yard drills from one end and trims from the other so there are actually different considerations for each aspect.  I designed each end to fit the specific purpose I intended for it.  My yard is more of a division point and includes a 2 track engine shop with a third track for light repair and storage.  My design also includes fueling racks on both ends of the A/D tracks so thru trains can be serviced without a trip to the engine shop.  Most of my thru trains consist of intermodal, coal, and grain unit trains and are not classified in the yard, these trains use the fueling racks mentioned.  Most of my manifest trains originate and terminate in this yard and are completely classified. 

I found thru building it and operating it I was able to fine tune the arrangement to make it flow.  Space is always an issue, I don't care how much you have.  You have to set limits and accept what you can do with it.  My engine shop is in a similiar location as yours and drilling must stop to access it, but I have not found that to be a problem.  I have accepted this and do not regret it.  Yes it would require coordination, but what else does the YM have to do any way.

Where in OK are you located.  I am in Tulsa. 

I know it may be hard to see but here is my yard.

[Flashwave]

Another point on MofW: When they redid the ties out on rthe ex NYC bee Line/Big Four, they crammed the entire fleet into the Co-op INSTEAD of the major yad nearby. This isn;t large cranes or anything that moves faster than 25, but that;s where they were for most of the work.   

[markpierce]

Having a track immediately parallel to the ladder and conntecting to the switching lead and the last track of the ladder allows locomotives to stay off the ladder track when they are just passing through to/from the loco service area.  One still has congestion on the switching lead, but this can be avoided if the principal switching lead is on the opposite end of the yard.

Mark

[Texas Zepher]

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

yup, that was my comment as well.  A switcher drilling a train blocks almost everything.  Likewise moving a loco and or caboose to/from the appropriate tracks clogs up the classification job.

The problem is Zepher is how do you fix it?

Assuming there is no space to bend things around the corner.  In order to keep from screwing up the current good design, I would, say, just move the yard ladder back to where the first loco storage track is and move those two (storage-caboose) tracks to the left side of the yard.  That way the locomotives get to and from it either on the A/D track or on the yard bypass track (bottom track on the drawing).  Maybe add a stub ended loco storage track or RIP track too.  I would also change to a compound ladder to save space.

[OKrlroads]

Dave H.

Thanks for info on MofW crews and mechanic depts. Makes sense, tho didn't know worked as independent divisions from each other. After popping drawing up closer to real size, you are correct in needing more space around RIP track, so will correct that.

Probably will keep some of trackage for "display", cause I have a few wrecking cranes and misc cars that are pretty much what they are, just display!

Thanks for input!

[dehusman]

First a point of clarification, MofW referrs to the engineering forces, they repair track and bridges.  They own gang cars, tool cars, water cars, ballast cars, air dumps, bridge cranes, Burro cranes, snow plows and jordan spreaders plus an  assortment of gons, boxes and flats for handling company material.  The mechanical department has ballast cars, panel cars, wrecker cranes, wrecker diners, tool cars, block cars, flats for loading wrecks, flats for wheels, flats for traction motors, sand cars, fuel tank cars and an assortment of boxcars for handling company material. 

Engineering cars and mechanical cars are managed as two different fleets and are generally independent of each other and are not mixed.

As to what would be at your yard, the answer really is what is the size of the yard.  At a small  yard they most likey wouldn't have squat unless there is a gang there working on something temporarily.  In that case they put them wherever they can stick them.  There might be a supply car for the rip track or service track.  You wouldn't have a wrecker unless you have a fairly substancial mechanical department, a large rip track or a full "roundhouse" service facility.  You might have a snowplow/spreader/flanger if you are in snow area, but that could be stuffed in any available track.  The most you might have at a yard your size is a car or two of ballast and car or rail or panels for derailment protection.  But that track could be stuffed anywhere in the terminal.  The only requirement is it has to be someplace that isn't going to be buried up, but it doesn't have to be near the service track or rip track. 

So the question is how much real estate do you want to devote to "display" tracks that should sit there, untouched about 99% of the time.  Rather than take up the space for track you will just park something on, you might want to use the space to put room around the rip track to make it look like a rip track.  A real rip track will have enough room for a fork lift/truck to operate all the way around the cars (thing break on both sides of a car) and have stacks of spare materials (brake shoes, air hoses, pipe, replacement doors, grab irons, brake gear, wheels, trucks, sheet metal, etc).  So you can put track after track solid across the layout and call each track what it is or you can omit some of the tracks and use the real estate to detail the remaining tracks for their activities and detail them to make them look like what they are.

Dave H.

 

[OKrlroads]

MichaelWinicki

Ok, I see what you mean about the crossover in yard tracks. That wasn't meant to take them out of being used as class tracks, more of a what if situation. Such as pulling equipment out of MOW tracks to head straight out to the right? Most special moves would be short trains and this would give you a run around to get in front and leave yard. Should there be no MOW equipment kept in yard? Should there be no crossover in yard tracks period?

I do appreciatate comments and suggestions so feel free to let'er rip.

Thanks

[MichaelWinicki]

MichaelWinicki, dehusman Are you looking at the same plan as I'am?

Yep.  First plan was better.

Dave H.

Ok, just thought maybe plans got mixed up.

 

I apologize OKrl but I like the simplicity of the first plan.  The selective compression thing aside, the non-classification track area of plan "B", looks way too involved for a yard consisting of what now appears to be 4 tracks.  The other two tracks involving the crossover, and I'm assuming won't be used for classification or there's no need for the crossover.

You've got a wide variety of non-classification type of tracks that would seem to fit more for a division point sized yard that was breaking down each and every train that came by, rather than a mid-point type of yard that only broke down a portion of the trains that went through.  

[OKrlroads]

MichaelWinicki, dehusman Are you looking at the same plan as I'am?

Yep.  First plan was better.

Dave H.

Ok, just thought maybe plans got mixed up.

[dehusman]

MichaelWinicki, dehusman Are you looking at the same plan as I'am?

Yep.  First plan was better.

Dave H.

[OKrlroads]

MichaelWinicki, dehusman Are you looking at the same plan as I'am?

Basically cleaned up the drill lead switches, done away with loco shop and made minor repair and fuel island to right side of plan. Keeps locos from running thur yard.

May be good idea on weight track, just redo the waycar trackage and add it to them.

Area that was loco shop in 1st plan was made into extra storage, special cars, MOW equipment, ect.

Also think RIP track would work better closer to yard area instead of in loco fuel and repair area.

Again, everybody, Thanks for input.

[dehusman]

If you must have a rip track, make one track in the engine facility the rip track and make the engine facility only one track.  Put the tracks on 3 or 4 inch centers to make it look right.  If you have to have a scale track put the scale on on the of the two "caboose" tracks.

Dave H.

[MichaelWinicki]

The first design was better, more straight forward.  You are trying to do too much in too little space.  Just replace the diesel shop with two tracks and have a fuel rack and sand tower between them.

Dave H.

I agree.  The servicing area of the yard has the complexity of a "division point" type of yard, but the small number of classification tracks doesn't IMO, balance out that large servicing area.

To me the original plan represented a nice solid, in-between division point type of yard, that wouldn't break-down and assemble each and every train that passes through but only select trains that have cars that would be going to the various industries represented by the rest of the layout.

[dehusman]

The first design was better, more straight forward.  You are trying to do too much in too little space.  Just replace the diesel shop with two tracks and have a fuel rack and sand tower between them.

Dave H.

[OKrlroads]

UPDATE

First off, Thanks to everybody for suggestions, ideas, and kind words.

I haven't been doing this long enough to get into actual operations and ideas from people that have been there-done that, are really eye opening. It is a great deal of help.

Anyway, downloaded XTrkCad, ( What a learning curve on that! ), and took another shot at the yard plan. Hopefully you can see it, like to never got anything that was uploadable. May have to download to your computer and use another picture program to see it very well.

 

[Flashwave]

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

yup, that was my comment as well.  A switcher drilling a train blocks almost everything.  Likewise moving a loco and or caboose to/from the appropriate tracks clogs up the classification job.

The problem is Zepher is how do you fix it?

One person suggested moving the locomotive servicing area north or to the other side of the main-- I don't know if that's a good idea for several reasons:

1. The locomotive servicing area is typically a focal point for many layouts.  It's where you display your power.   And moving it away from the viewer (if that's indeed the case) sorta takes away from visual appeal of that part of the layout.

2. Moving it to the other side of the main would also cause some potential traffic concerns with the main itself as engines are brought back & forth across the main from/to the servicing area to the arrival/departure tracks.  

3. From a realism/safety standpoint I'm not sure a railroad would want personnel to have to repeatedly cross the main (walking or running! ) in order to get from the yard complex to the engine servicing area. 

I wouldn't. Yes, clogging will be a prob;em. But, at any given tiime, only one swticher will be drilling. It;s small enough area that 2 engines moving is a problem (from having worked an operations seesion with a similar design) The way around is for the switcher to wait for the engine to clear the switch then start working. But if he;s the only op, he has to park the engine anyway. If there's two, the other guy has to be paitient. He can move quickly enough.

  

[BCSJ]

This is a pretty nice yard design! Good job! 

What (imo) is good...

• Trains can arrive/depart the A/D tracks without fouling the drill track
• The A/D tracks and body track lengths appear to be compatible with each other.
• Caboose track.

What (imo) could be improved (suggestions brought to you free and they may well be worth what they cost you)...

The drill track has no direct access to the main track. This means any train hitting the yard to do a block swap has to use one of the A/D tracks. Not a big deal if the yard is lightly utilized or trains don't block swap there (only are created or terminate).

Is there a need for a run-around track? (only if cars will be delivered to the engine facility (diesel, sand, parts, etc). The track next to the caboose track could serve that purpose.

Someone else mentioned that a 3 stall engine house seems a bit large. I'd second that notion. Two stalls and some external service stuff might be better.

Wouild the complexity of the A/D tracks/drill track/crossover to main  be significantly reduced if the caboose track were moved left and the main line crossover were moved right? Would this end up allowing another crossover providing drill track access to the main track?

How are you envisioning the use of the pocket track?

• If it's to hold the switch engine then its unnecessary (the switcher can hide in the drill track).
• If it's a place for eastbound (to the right) engines to cut off before moving to the engine facility they would need to back out of the pocket beyond the 1st drill track crossover, then move foward onto the drill track, then back down either the runaround or the yard ladder, then foward again to the engine facility. In this case it might be easier to just pull the engine foward onto the drill track.
• If it's a place for an engine (or caboose) to be cut off so a block swap can be performed then it wouild seem more worthwhile. I've found though, on my BC&SJ that blockin the mainline while a block swap occurs isn't a problem. Block swaps usually only take 10 minutes or less (depending on the expertise of the crews involved) .
• 
  

Questions that it wold be useful to have answers for:

• How many trains per hour will be handled by this yard?
• How many destinations will this yard be sorting cars for? If more than 2 for each class track you'll likely want more class tracks... 
• What will trains stopping at this yard be doing? Passenger station stop? Block swap? Train terminates? Train is created?
• How long will these trains be? Are the A/D tracks long enough to hold an entier train? Doubling an A/D track is ok if necessary but it will triple the amount of time needed to arrive/depart the yard.
• Is the drill track long enough to hold an entire A/D track full of cars? Again, shorter cuts are doable, but will increse the time involved in breaking down or building a train?
• Will 2 A/D tracks be enough? Sometimes it's very handy to pre-build a train and have it ready to go but now you've tied up one of the two precious A/D tracks. If you can provide drill track access to the main track that will help. Another thing that helps a lot here is give the ladder tracks direct (without switchbacks) access to the mainline so a class track can be pressed into duty as an A/D track (departing/arriving from a class track will disrupt the operation of the switch engine so it's less desirable)

All in all this is a pretty decent yard design and for a moderate traffic flow, it would be (I think) pretty workable. 

Best regards,

Charlie Comstock

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

yup, that was my comment as well.  A switcher drilling a train blocks almost everything.  Likewise moving a loco and or caboose to/from the appropriate tracks clogs up the classification job.

The problem is Zepher is how do you fix it?

One person suggested moving the locomotive servicing area north or to the other side of the main-- I don't know if that's a good idea for several reasons:

1. The locomotive servicing area is typically a focal point for many layouts.  It's where you display your power.   And moving it away from the viewer (if that's indeed the case) sorta takes away from visual appeal of that part of the layout.

2. Moving it to the other side of the main would also cause some potential traffic concerns with the main itself as engines are brought back & forth across the main from/to the servicing area to the arrival/departure tracks.  

3. From a realism/safety standpoint I'm not sure a railroad would want personnel to have to repeatedly cross the main (walking or running! ) in order to get from the yard complex to the engine servicing area. 

[Texas Zepher]

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

yup, that was my comment as well.  A switcher drilling a train blocks almost everything.  Likewise moving a loco and or caboose to/from the appropriate tracks clogs up the classification job.

[MichaelWinicki]

Couple of things off the cuff...........

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

An example being getting a road locomotive from the A/D tracks to servicing. As it is a road loco has to make 3 or 4 moves to get serviced and in the process it needs to travel on the drill track, through the caboose/loco tracks and finally to the service area.

I'd flip loco servicing and storage to the North side of the drill that way locos can go straight from the A/D tracks to the servicing area without fouling the drill.

 Ideally the only loco ever on the drill should be the switcher classifying cars.

You bring up a pretty solid point.  And it's been a flaw in my yard design also, i.e. having the engine servicing area in a place where the engines entering and exiting would interfere with any sort of yard switching.  And it's an issue I've seen on a great many model railroads. 

[OKrlroads]

Good suggestions all. Will work on plan as time permits this week and see what can be done to make changes. Thanks everbody for the help!

[Hudson]

Couple of things off the cuff...........

The drill track should be "functionally" isolated from the rest of the service tracks. Right off the bat their are quite a few moves that will interrupt a continuous flow of classification.

An example being getting a road locomotive from the A/D tracks to servicing. As it is a road loco has to make 3 or 4 moves to get serviced and in the process it needs to travel on the drill track, through the caboose/loco tracks and finally to the service area.

I'd flip loco servicing and storage to the North side of the drill that way locos can go straight from the A/D tracks to the servicing area without fouling the drill.

 Ideally the only loco ever on the drill should be the switcher classifying cars.