Hi,
Today I bought 30 halogen lamps for my layout, 50 watts each and I plan to place them on my layout using a shadowbox style presentation. Now my question is this. How far apart should I put them? I can angle them so they come from the ceiling but still at an angle or should I let them shine straight down on the track? It will be aproximately 50 cm between them and the track. I was considering 3 feet apart.
Magnus
Are they floods or spots?
3 feet sounds a bit close goven the distance of 60cm but it's hard to say without seeing the site.
BlueHillsCPR wrote: Are they floods or spots?3 feet sounds a bit close goven the distance of 60cm but it's hard to say without seeing the site.
They are spots.
I can not show a picture since the wals are not done yet where the layout will be. But it will be two decks(plus a staging yard underneath).
Magnus, you will want them an average of 40 cm apart, believe it or not. I take it that they will be on a track? I would urge you to get the kind that rotate and then a sliding collar locks them into their track. That way you can slide the entire light fixture left and right for temporary or permanent needs as you find the need. For example, during photography, you will definitely want to add light to some scenes, and that is where the movable fixtures are necessary.
-Crandell
selector wrote: Magnus, you will want them an average of 40 cm apart, believe it or not. I take it that they will be on a track? I would urge you to get the kind that rotate and then a sliding collar locks them into their track. That way you can slide the entire light fixture left and right for temporary or permanent needs as you find the need. For example, during photography, you will definitely want to add light to some scenes, and that is where the movable fixtures are necessary.-Crandell
40 cm apart!
That will become expensive. My first plan was 60 cm apart but I thought that the high watts would keep the need down. My budget is estimated for 60 anyways. How about this Crandell? In the countryside I put them 60 apart and then at yards and industries I go with 40 cm? That should work right? Or does it only lead to strange and uneven light?
Going 40 cm all around would cause a need for 190 lights or something in that ballpark. Maybe a few less, lets say 180. That would cost me 990 dollars! I will have to think about this. How many amps does a typical 50 watt halogen light use? I've not been able to find any info on that. Not even on the package that they come in.
Anyone got any ideas how I tell my wife that I need to buy another 150 lights?
- Harry
HarryHotspur wrote:Look at it this way Magnus, you will rarely have to use your heating system.
This is actually something that I've though about and added as a positive thing. The room will be kept fairly cold during then winther. Perhaps 15 degrees Celsius. So massive heating from the lights will not cause any problems except on those very short summer months. During the rest of the year it will be a bonus. And lets face it. During the few days that we get over 30 degrees Celsius during a year I don't want to spend them in the train house anyways. The extra heat will be put to use and not wasted.
Magnus,
I would suggest that you think this through very carefully. you are going to burn a large number of watts with this set up. Two bulbs will be roughly one amp!!! 60 bulbs will be in the neighborhood of 30 amps...180 will be ...well you can do the math. I would suggest that you build a mock up and test out your lighting theory. I think that you will be able to get away with fewer bulbs or the same number at a lower wattage. BTW there are more efficient ways to heat your space for the same amperage....
I liked the halogens myself, but couldn't solve the heat/wattage issue so I am using warm CPFLS - less heat, 1/4 the watts. If you are going with the shadowbox, you can move the lights closer to the layout on the inside of the valence. Check out Joe Fugates site for an explantion of his technique for doing this. I am using a similar idea to light my double deck layout.
60 lights three feet apart is 180 lineal feet of layout...What are the dimensions of the space you are going to be lighting?
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 wrote: Magnus,I would suggest that you think this through very carefully. you are going to burn a large number of watts with this set up. Two bulbs will be roughly one amp!!! 60 bulbs will be in the neighborhood of 30 amps...180 will be ...well you can do the math. I would suggest that you build a mock up and test out your lighting theory. I think that you will be able to get away with fewer bulbs or the same number at a lower wattage. BTW there are more efficient ways to heat your space for the same amperage.... I liked the halogens myself, but couldn't solve the heat/wattage issue so I am using warm CPFLS - less heat, 1/4 the watts. If you are going with the shadowbox, you can move the lights closer to the layout on the inside of the valence. Check out Joe Fugates site for an explantion of his technique for doing this. I am using a similar idea to light my double deck layout. 60 lights three feet apart is 180 lineal feet of layout...What are the dimensions of the space you are going to be lighting? Guy
The layout room is 8,5 meters by 4 meters. It will be double deck with a peninsula in the middle. So it will be a long line. I agree that 180 lights sounds excessive and I will be testing it before I go all out. I have a electric cabinet installed just for the layout room and it used to power different large equipments like a huge wood cutter and so on. Sp I got plenty of power. That said I agree that a 180 lamps would take a heavy toll on the electricity.
I'm not saying that I want to use the lights to warm the layout room. I will use radiators for that. But I do live in a very cold climate and this is a stand alone building. So any excess heat is not a problem. Even a large amount of lights won't cause a major heating issue since I'll never be in there for more then a few hours.
The deck separation is 50 cm. So my guess at this rime will be that the lights will come closer to the layout. Perhaps 30-40 cm away on average. Will that decrease the amount of lights needed? It's from Joe Fugates videos that I got the idea but I chose the halogen spotlights since I think they will be cheaper in the long run and looks better. I also have the option to replace them with LED lights which I plan to do later on since the sockets are the same. That will drastically cut energy usage. They don't cost very much either and use about 1,5 watts so I plan to use those eventually.
I think that you will find the halogens too hot to use under the deck. Your idea of LEDs is a good one. I suspect they will be dropping in price dramatically soon.
You will also have the issue of deck thickness. Trying to hide bulbs in a thin deck will be a challenge. Trying to hide very hot halogens in a thin deck without causing problems will be an even bigger challenge. Jack Burgess uses bright sticks under his decks, I use CPFLs, both run a lot cooler than halogens....Jack has a description and pics at his YVRR site.
trainnut1250 wrote: I think that you will find the halogens too hot to use under the deck. Your idea of LEDs is a good one. I suspect they will be dropping in price dramatically soon.
I also think that LED lights will drop in price real soon. I hope IKEA starts selling them, that usually lowers the prices. Now LED cost about 10$ each which isn't to bad. They also last for ever and there electric consumption is next to nothing so I do believe they are a great move in the long run. Maybe I will replace half of them straight from the bat.
I've checked how much the halogen lights needs to be safe in clearance and they should be just fine with the way I've planned my layout. They do not need very much clearance behind them. It's worse in front of them.
My biggest question now is how far apart I should put them? If I have to go 40 cm I'll have to scratch them as lightning on the lower lever and just use them on the top level. But if I can go with one meter I think it's doable. Doesn't Joe Fugate use one 15-20 watt bulb every 24" or do I remember wrong? If so surely 50 watts must atleast cover that distance to?
If the bulbs were regular globes, you'd probably be okay, but spotlights will probably result in shadows and very uneven lighting.
I have used Joe Fugate's website as a guideline. He alternated 15 and 25 watt incandescent bulbs every two feet (61 cm). A 15 watt incandescent puts out about 100 lumens. A 25 watt incandescent puts out about 170 lumens. That comes out to about 68 lumens per linear foot of benchwork. A 5 watt festoon style Xenon bulb puts out about 50 lumens. A 10 watt Xenon festoon style bulb puts out about 120 lumens. Basically, you can put a 5 watt bulb every foot (30.5 cm) or a 10 watt bulb every two feet (60 cm) and be approximately on par with what Joe has developed.
I plan on using Xenon festoon style light bulbs. Xenon bulbs are similar to halogens, but they give off more light per watt (and thus less heat) and can be handled with bare hands without the oils on your skin reducing bulb life. An additional bonus is that festoon style bulbs have a low profile, ideal for multiple deck layouts.
I found superlumination.com that sells the bulbs for $1.49 each and fixtures for $2.49 each. (Scroll to the bottom of the page. The web site doesn't say what the voltage is, but since it is geared toward automotive lighting, it is likely 12 volts. I've seen them elsewhere in 12 and 24 volts. Wattage is unclear.) 1000bulbs.com has more of a selection and more details. They sell 12 volt, 5 watt festoon style Xenon bulbs for less than $1 each.
EDIT:
With 30 bulbs at a 3 foot spacing, I guess you have approximately 90 feet of layout to light. Using the $1 Xenon bulbs and the $2.50 fixtures, you're at $3.50 per foot or $315. Of course you'll need a transformer(s) capable of dropping the voltage and handling the necessary 450 watts. A brief web search for 600 watt, 12 volt transformers shows the lowest prices to be around $150. I'm sure you can build your own cheaper if you feel comfortable with the wiring. Thus for your whole layout, this option will run you about $465.
Magnus, I have two parallel 8 foot tracks set about 120 cm apart. Each has five fixtures, each in turn with a 50 watt GU10 halogen spot. My tracks are attached the support T's for a suspended cieling. The light lenses are between 80-110 cm above the layout surface, depending on the elevation of the terrain. Their average spacing is about 50 cm, with some nearer to 70 and some nearer 35. At their average height, there are indeed some darker spots which I can live with while playing. When imaging, though, I have to relocate one or two, or else swivel and aim a couple nearby to shine on the area being imaged. So, you would be wise to follow the advice to mock it up and test. You may do well with many fewer, or maybe you should wait for lower priced LEDs and enjoy more of them for still less.
Hi again,
I checked out some stuff. Thanks everyone by the way for your input. Since we use 230 volts instead of you lower volts it's not really a problem over here. I'm able to use 16 amps circuits in my layout room. And with 230 volts each 50 watt spot will only use 0,2 amps each. So I will be able to put in a about 70-80 lights on each outlet that I got. So that part of the problem is not a problem. I got more then enough juice.
Crandell I'm going to do a mock up as you say. I got 50 watts GU10's as well. Is their less dark spots when they are further away or more? I think that what I will end up doing is that I will start with about one hundred of these lightsources and then later expand them as I go along. I will then start to replace all the ones on the lower deck with LEDs and use the extra halogens then created as backups for the ones that I plan to put near the ceiling on the top deck. With time LEDs are bound to lower in price, they have already started to drop and I would not be surprised if the get halved in price within a year or two. Hopefully as I said before IKEA will start to sell them. That always lowers prices around here. Low energy light bulbs from them cost 2$ around here and they work great.
Lillen wrote:My biggest question now is how far apart I should put them? If I have to go 40 cm I'll have to scratch them as lightning on the lower lever and just use them on the top level. But if I can go with one meter I think it's doable. Doesn't Joe Fugate use one 15-20 watt bulb every 24" or do I remember wrong? If so surely 50 watts must atleast cover that distance to?
It is not just the wattage of the bulb you must consider; but also how it and the light fixture are shaped. The light "cone" (the area illuminated by the light) can varry a great deal. Two lamps with identical wattages can illuminate very different sized areas depending on how they are designed. A "wide spot" will light up a lot more area than a "pin spot."
Also, the distance a light is from the surface you are trying to illuminate will influence the area it will illuminate. For example, if your spot-light is 100cm from the layout, it will illuminate a lot more of your layout than if it were at only 30cm.
I suggest you test just how much area each of your lights illuminate at the distance you plan to install them from the surface of your layout. Once you know how much area each light can illuminate, then you can calculate how far apart to place each light in order to best show your layout.
I also suggest you put the lights on a circuit controled by an appropriate dimmer switch so that you can control how bright the lights are to simulate different times of the day.
Lillen wrote:Anyone got any ideas how I tell my wife that I need to buy another 150 lights?
I'm not familiar with radio in Europe but here in the states the transformer for the halogen lights can cause interference with AM radio. My wife listens to talk radio a lot and it was a constant source of irritation. I switched to cfl's and am very happy with the results.
Tom
Life is simple - eat, drink, play with trains!
Go Big Red!
PA&ERR "If you think you are doing something stupid, you're probably right!"
fiatfan wrote: I'm not familiar with radio in Europe but here in the states the transformer for the halogen lights can cause interference with AM radio. My wife listens to talk radio a lot and it was a constant source of irritation. I switched to cfl's and am very happy with the results. Tom
There is no transformer. They just plug straight into the wall socket.
Here is some more info for you to consider. My space is similiar to yours 6.7M X 4M. My layout is double decked with a peninsula. There is one side of the peninsula that is not double decked. I have bright lighting on both decks using a similar system to Joe F. and I currently have 53 lights in the space. Most are CPFLs. I figure that I may need to add around 10 to 15 more by the time the layout is complete. I hope this gives you some idea of the numbers.
In this shot you can see the lights under the valence. The bottom deck is dark due to construction.
Here you can see the effect of the lighting on both decks. They do have some shadow spots but it looks darker in the photo than in person. My fixtures are mounted to be moveable and as I comple scenery on the bottom deck I can add and adjust lighting to suit the scene.
Guy,
Thanks for those pictures and the info. It helps. I have one question. What is CPFLs?
I've done a little mock up research to night. I had to wait until it got dark which means sometimes after 11pm around here this time a year. I think the lights give plenty of light. So I think that the Halogen lights could be placed almost a meter apart. I'm not really looking for to bright anyways. I think your look just about right.
I will perhaps use these halogens on the top deck only and then use Joe Fugates method on the lower deck. That should keep heat to a minimum and the halogen lights will look good in the roof.
What do you guys think. Should I get these instead?
http://www.clasohlson.se/Product/LargeImageViewer.aspx?Path=/Archive/Images/Products/Hi/321864_1865_X_2007-06-26_090811_421.jpg
And just put in 15 and 25 watts regular lights instead?
They are about 2,20$ each. So getting 120 wouldn't be very costly. I can then use the halogens I already got as top deck and room lightning and above the work bench.
CPFL = Compact flourescent bulb. The curly cue ones that screw into a regular light socket. I use the warm white. I use the 11 watt ones that give a 40 watt equivalent light. Nestled in the lower deck they get warm, but not hot and they give a pleasing light.
The sockets look good, I was able to find some in the US with wires already on them for around the same price as yours. When you are looking at putting leads on 60 fixtures, any little bit helps..
Midnight Railroader wrote: Lillen wrote:Anyone got any ideas how I tell my wife that I need to buy another 150 lights? It's going to get hot in your layout room...and your electric company's gonna love you.
I agree that the heat from that many halogen spots will be tremendous. The light will be very harsh and show many shadows. I would suggest checking into the lighting that Joe Fugate uses on his layout. It appears that you are looking for the same effect and the showdow box constuction will be similar to his. A much softer light will be needed in this case.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
trainnut1250 wrote: Magnus, CPFL = Compact flourescent bulb. The curly cue ones that screw into a regular light socket. I use the warm white. I use the 11 watt ones that give a 40 watt equivalent light. Nestled in the lower deck they get warm, but not hot and they give a pleasing light.The sockets look good, I was able to find some in the US with wires already on them for around the same price as yours. When you are looking at putting leads on 60 fixtures, any little bit helps.. Guy
Ok, So CFPLS are simply low energy light like IKEA sells for 2,50$ in Sweden. They come with 11 watts as well. I'm going to return 27 of the halogens today and go with your guys suggestions. 3 I will be keeping since the wife wants me to put them over the work area in the kitchen.
Bob, I have the Fugate videos and I would like to replicate his brilliant effort.
Anyone know what colour spectrum CFPLS got? Are they like regular light bulbs?
Lillen wrote: trainnut1250 wrote: Magnus, CPFL = Compact flourescent bulb. The curly cue ones that screw into a regular light socket. I use the warm white. I use the 11 watt ones that give a 40 watt equivalent light. Nestled in the lower deck they get warm, but not hot and they give a pleasing light.The sockets look good, I was able to find some in the US with wires already on them for around the same price as yours. When you are looking at putting leads on 60 fixtures, any little bit helps.. Guy Ok, So CFPLS are simply low energy light like IKEA sells for 2,50$ in Sweden. They come with 11 watts as well. I'm going to return 27 of the halogens today and go with your guys suggestions. 3 I will be keeping since the wife wants me to put them over the work area in the kitchen. Bob, I have the Fugate videos and I would like to replicate his brilliant effort. Anyone know what colour spectrum CFPLS got? Are they like regular light bulbs? Magnus
You can get them in various colors. I find the normal ones in stores are around 2700k. I went to www.buylighting.com and got 5100k CFLs. You can get them either dimmable or nondimmable. Some folks have seen the GE daylight CFLs in stores and they are supposedly in the 5000k range. I've not found any in the floodlight variety in stores.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
In regards to Jeff's comments. I think that the lights I am using are in the incandescent range of color temp. - I think around 3500K. I have a couple of the daylight bulbs but they look too blue to my eyes. That is just me and I have a bias towards the warm white. I just like the look of the light.
One thing to consider is that you want to have fairly consistent color temp across the layout. The colors will look different under different light temps. I have a large collection of craftsman cars that I built and weathered using incandescent light. When I see them under daylight bulbs they look a little off to my eye. Because of this, it was a no brainer for me to use 3500k bulbs.. If you have no previous baggage like I did, buy a few of each and see what you like.
Make sure that the light at your workbench where you paint and weather your models is the same color temp. as the layout that on which the models will be run or displayed.
My two cents,