Radius question and track height.

[cudaken]

Far as the reach, if I build at a higher height I will build a work stand. I will be 3 foot wide and around 5 long and around 1 and half feet tall.

 

 When I get started with the wood, working I will first build a 3 foot wide section and try it at different heights.

 

 While I was at K-10 trains yesterday I took sometime to study his bench. Most sections are 3 foot wide. One of the things in the back of my mind was there going to be room for scenery? It is amazing what can be done with a 3, foot bench.

  

  I have a basic plain in my head now, in a week or so I will post some ruff plains.

 

       Thanks for all the answers as well.

 

                       Cuda Ken

[HEdward]

I'm only 5'16" myself and with a minimum height at 48" due to the display beneath the HO layout, and a width of 6 feet, I will be constructing most of the layout from the center outward to the fron first, then to the rear.  Perhaps a miniature gantry crane suspended from the ceiling can be used to reach derailments on the inner trackage.  Shall I cannabalise a claw machine from an arcade?

[wjstix]

My layout-under-construction has a corner where 16" wide shelving meets 12" wide shelving. I was able to work in 31" radius curves quite easily.

For height, if your 30" benchwork is accessible from either side, you could go very high, up to your neck if you wanted a real 'scale person eye level' view. If it's only accessible on one side like a shelf, you'd want to be much lower, since 24" is about the farthest comfortable stretch you'll want to have.

[Johnnny_reb]

To figure a curve radius I have cut three template's out of poster board. 15"r, 18"r and 22"r and keep them handy. That way I can just lay one out on my benchwork and mark the center line of either three. And with a 24" by 63" module frame, a half circle with a 24" radius would fit easily in that space. 

I would make a few templates and lay out the dimensions of the layout corner you want on the wall ( a simple line drawing ) and use the templates to see what fits.

As for the height of the layout, mid chest should be about right. Just remember that you may have to reach over buildings and scenery to fix a derailment some day. So a little less then arms reach would be the max on the width of the benchwork. Say armpit to wrist.

[cregil]

Radius question, where the two sections of a 30, inch bench meets at a 90, degree angel to make a corner. What is the math to figure the radius it will handle? I want 30, inch radius or maybe little bit bigger. I could make the bench a little wider, or settle for a little smaller turn. I do not want go under, 28 inches. That will be the out side radius, there will a inside loop.

 

Since you know that from the far edge to the  near edge at the corner is going to be a 45 degree turn, that equation is based on a right  triangle with an angle half of that (that is, a 22.5 angle).  The angle of divergence is always one half of the degree of turn.

You have a 30” board meeting another 30” board at a right angle.  The radius of a circle that would touch each wall at a tangent and touch the inside corner can be found by taking the known leg length of the right triangle of 30” with that known angle.

Radius = [one half of the width of the shelf/sin(22.5)]/sin(22.5)
Radius = [½ shelf width/sin(22.5)]/sin(22.5)
Radius = {[½ (30)]/.3826}/.3826
Radius = (15/.3826)/.3826
Radius = 39.2/.3826
Radius = 102.45”

Breaking ot down into the two formula:

This is because Length of chord of triangle = 30/sin(22.5)

= 30/.3826
= 78.4”

The radius is ½ the chord length divided by the sin(22.5)

R = ½(h)/sin(22.5)

Where h = length of hypotenuse (Chord)

r = ½(78.4)/sin(22.5)
r = 39.2/.3826)
r = 102.45”

You will want to factor in your minimum track spacing or minimum clearance from edge when you use this formula, so if you want a minimum of 3” from track center to edge and from wall, use 27” leg length and the calculations give you a 92.25” radius.

Have fun,

Crews

 

[tstage]

Radius question, where the two sections of a 30, inch bench meets at a 90, degree angel to make a corner. What is the math to figure the radius it will handle? I want 30, inch radius or maybe little bit bigger. I could make the bench a little wider, or settle for a little smaller turn. I do not want go under, 28 inches. That will be the out side radius, there will a inside loop.

Ken,

The size radius you can use is more contingent on how long your benchwork will be, rather than how wide it is.  (Not that that's not important.)  If you have two, 30" wide modules or pieces of bench meeting in the corner, you can have VERY large radii curves in that configuration.

I just used the Atlas RTS 8.0 software to create a 8 x 8', 30" wide, L-shaped layout.  Using the "transition curve" feature, a R72" curve (with transitions) will easily fit in that area.  However, the problem you run into with large curves is: The larger the curve; the closer it comes to the inside corner where the two tables meet.  Anyhow, you should be able to easily go R36" to R48" and still have room to run a parallel inside track 2.5" CTC from the outside track.

Ken, you should also try to keep your benchwork so that your reach is 30" or less.  And you don't have to make your benchwork all the same width either.  Some sections can be 30", some 24", some 16".  It really depends what you will be modeling in that particular part of the bench.  If I remember correctly, Joe Fugate has a section on his layout that is only 12" wide.

Hope that helps... 

Tom

[cudaken]

 

Beaver, my 70 Plymouth Cuda is bigger than most people think. It is 8" wider and a little over a foot longer than a Camaro from around 69. Easy to get in, hard to get out. Slap stick shifter does poke me in the right leg.

 Crandall, I would layout the bench with tape and see what the reach and feel is like, but there is a problem! Garage is full of the old layout, tool boxes, stereo gear, car parts etc. I will have to dump a lot of stuff at a garage sale, swap meets and E-Bay before the garage will have room for the new layout. I all so might demo the storage room that is in the garage, that will add another 64 sq foot.

 As far as the new bench being ran with other people, more than likely no. I work odd hours and work ever weekend. I get home around 9:45 PM, little late to start ops.

 This time around, I am getting serious about the design. I have started re reading the Armstrong book on Realistic Rail Road Operations, not just looking at the PIC this time. If I am lucky, I will come up with something in a few months.

 I want a rural setting with long main lines. I hope for two main lines side by side that will loop them self's on different levels. In other words go around two times before they get where they started, from. Shooting for apx 2 scale miles, 120 feet for each line. I want grades, 2% to 4% yet still pull long trains, 40, cars plus. If I do 4% then I will use doubled or triple headed with a pusher. I also want a branch line, call it the C line. It will not have any grades, but will services the local companies.

 Far as a yard, for now that is not something I am a fan of. But rather it be hidden or on the bench I will have to have one. With 50 engines and around 300, rolling stock I need storage.

 New bench will be an L glide with wood and foam risers.

 Many of you will think I except too much. Maybe I do, but I think big. Way I look at it, if you shoot for the stars, but only make it to the moon, you still did pretty good! Look at my Logo, that will give you a idea of my personality

 Thanks for all the kind answers.

                     Cuda Ken                

 

[Beaver14]

Cuda Ken,

Since I, too, stand at 6' 4", let me respond to the height part of your questions. I've built layouts and operated and built club layouts plus operated on many more so have at least some experience with the issues. The usual rule of thumb has to do with your ability to reach easily the rear track on a shelf. You should be able to do so without much in the way of gymnastics. This is where those of us at the higher end of the population have an advantage. Conversely, we do not want a layout so low we must bend (not getting any younger!) to see the car numbers. Personally, for a single level layout, I found a base height of 54-55" to work well, especially since that layout did not need to be worked on by shorter folk. I've also found the club layout main yard at 48" to be viable--a place where a longer reach is desired. When I operated on a layout with a yard at 36", I found that way too low.

Another part of this problem has been alluded to above: Will other people operate? If so, you may need to seek a lower compromise than what is comfortable and sustainable for you.

Last year's SF Bay Area LDSIG and OpSIG Meet had a presentation by Les Dahlstedt that used formal ergonomic data to suggest optimum layout heights, including considerations for getting underneath. One of his prime conclusions was that a seated worker required more clearance overhead (under the layout) than could be provided by a railhead height predicted for the same person standing alongside the layout. Key numbers from Les' charts for those of us at 6' 4": 28" reach, 26" maximum depth suggested (where the rear track is), about a 48" layout height. My 54-55" height layout had the track only a foot or so back from the layout edge, so this still applies.

Tony Koester (and many others!) suggest mocking up a layout panel and putting it at different heights. This will help resolve the reach issue as well as visual impact. It could prove useful for interacting with others for setting a height for them as operators (and builders?).

Good Luck!

BTW, How DO you fit into a 'Cuda (at 6-4)?

[selector]

Ken, I suspect that you are what psychologists would characterize as a "realistic" personality that likes working with machines and tools and using his eyes and hands to build things, most often an outdoorsy type.  To help you to learn what can be done with the dimensions you mention on a bench, why not mark it out with 5/8" masking tape?  Place it on the floor and mark out the bench edges so that you have the rear edge corner and the close edge corner where your belly might lean into it.  Then, make a 48" long lath into a trammel by driving a screw through one end so that it can be used as a pivot to sweep the other end in an arc.  Drill a hole every inch, starting from 18" and going until you run out of wood at the other end.  Use a 1/4" bit so that you can get a pen nib or a pencil tip down far enough to mark paper or the floor below the trammel.  Then pick a centre point well inside the curve, almost where your spine would be if your belly were pressed tight to the inside corner.  Then place your marker in any hole you choose and do the sweep.  Make a whole bunch of arcs and teach yourself how you can get darned near any curve you want in that location, but having to make accommodations for its approache and exit on either side as it gets wider or sharper.

Does that help?

-Crandell

[bogp40]

Ken,

Since you are rebuilding the layout, have you considered going with L girder or open grid with cookie cutter or spline? This method allows options for elevations with subroadbed on risers and scenery contours/ elevations at whatever you like. Towns, yards and other flat areas that need a continuous base can be set on plywood mounted on risers at the desired height.

Corners can be built to flow by radian joists, the inboard portion of the joist can be cut to a flowing radius to mount your curved facia as well. If the depth of the "bench"work end up deeper than the 30" as it most likely will, allow an access at the back corner behind the curved backdrop.

This section ia a 180 degree bend w/ 48" isles and a 54" radius on the outboard double track.

The L girder alows elevation changes as shown here. Benchwork is 30" and the track elevation is almost 10" of separation. This area is relatively flat and sections of 3/4" ply was laid on the risers

Since you are rebuilding your empire, I would give a lot of thought to the overall track plan and constuction methods. You will be getting many, many replies w/ all sort of help and ideas on this one. Good luck with this new plan Ken.

[camaro]

Cuda,

 

Where the 30 inch wide shelves meet at a 90 degree in the corner, just angle a piece of 1 x 4 into the corner that ties in both sections. 

 

Larry

 

 

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Without taking into account the didth of the rails, and without adding a corner piece to the benchwork, adn doing a little rounding off, the widest radius you can get away with is about 100 inches.  OF course that is going all the way to the back wall, and to the inside corner.  But, it means you won't have any trouble at all!

[rolleiman]

 

 I am getting close to tear the old bench down and build a true Model Rail Roader layout. After seeing the HOG plan I saw what I was missing. What I am thinking about is a 30, inch wide around the room free standing against the wall bench.

 

 Radius question, where the two sections of a 30, inch bench meets at a 90, degree angel to make a corner. What is the math to figure the radius it will handle? I want 30, inch radius or maybe little bit bigger. I could make the bench a little wider, or settle for a little smaller turn. I do not want go under, 28 inches. That will be the out side radius, there will a inside loop.

 

 What is the max height you have seen or used? What our your thoughts? Plain I have in my head will require a duck under / removable section. I am old but still 6 foot 4 inches. I am thinking 50 to 60 inches in height. Will build semi, rolling bench so I can work on the bench. Have you ever the casters with springs that poop up when there is little weight on them, but go to the floor when weight is added? I have seen them on the rolling ladders at Home Depot.

 

 I will add, tonight has been a great train night.

 

 Thanks for the up coming answers as well.

 

                           Cuda Ken        

 

Below is a drawing of my current layout (sort of).. The green lines are the mainline and the tan lines are hidden (planned). For Radii, the two sets of curves in the upper right hand corner, are 48 and 50 inch radius (or more, don't remember exactly). The benchwork is 24 inches that supports each and they overhang the 90 degree corner by about 8-10 inches. Doesn't take much to fit very wide curves in. What you give up in the exchange is straightaway. However, the long drags look Excellent moving around these curves. My only regret about them is that I didn't super-elevate them. A great railfan spot on the layout. 

 

For your rolling bench, I assume you meant to say "Pop Up" wheels.   

I'm 5'10", the layout is 48" at it's lowest point (only because of the uneven basement floor). I have a wooden box that I sit on when working underneath. Duckunders are something that will NOT be included on my next layout. NOTHING operational beyond my working reach of 24".

[cudaken]

 

 I am getting close to tear the old bench down and build a true Model Rail Roader layout. After seeing the HOG plan I saw what I was missing. What I am thinking about is a 30, inch wide around the room free standing against the wall bench.

 

 Radius question, where the two sections of a 30, inch bench meets at a 90, degree angel to make a corner. What is the math to figure the radius it will handle? I want 30, inch radius or maybe little bit bigger. I could make the bench a little wider, or settle for a little smaller turn. I do not want go under, 28 inches. That will be the out side radius, there will a inside loop.

 

 What is the max height you have seen or used? What our your thoughts? Plain I have in my head will require a duck under / removable section. I am old but still 6 foot 4 inches. I am thinking 50 to 60 inches in height. Will build semi, rolling bench so I can work on the bench. Have you ever the casters with springs that poop up when there is little weight on them, but go to the floor when weight is added? I have seen them on the rolling ladders at Home Depot.

 

 I will add, tonight has been a great train night.

 

 Thanks for the up coming answers as well.

 

                           Cuda Ken