Both publications and this forum has been invaluable to me!
Yours In Model Railroading,
John
Littleton, CO
Magazines are an important part of my hobby. As I started in 2005, certainly I have all the MR issues since then and I've renewed for 3 additional years. I also really like the MRP and GMR annuals and have a complete set of MRP and about half the GMR issues.
One of the real bargains I've gotten at swap meets and ebay are past issues. I buy them a year at a time and spend about a month going through each one. 1997 issues are as relevant as a 2008. Not only do I get to see how the hobby has evolved but also see how constant so many things are.
Joe
I want publications. I want MR Magazine and a bunch more periodicals, and books.
While I participate in the forum and have found it a useful, interactive medium, printed matter is easier on my eyes, organized, generally accurate, and passive. And it doesn't often 'lock up'.
Lately I've received calls from several magazines asking if I'd prefer an 'on-line' format. My answer is "NO!" I want the convenience of having the publication whenever I have a chance to read it, whether I have a computer accessible or not.
Besides, I am online too much as it is. I need to get away from it and still be able to read.
Just my 2 cents.
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
I thought about this a bit more. I found it ironic that the same day the OP posted this thread, they posted "calculating grade". I think the answer to the question of who needs publications could be answered by a quick look in the mirror!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Anyone who thinks a forum like this one replaces a nicely organized book on the subject is just fooling themselves.
This forum is like a bull session discussion in text format. If I post a question about flex track, for example, the first couple of responses might be:
"Not sure we get what you're asking ..."
"Do you mean HO?"
Then somebody might post:
"I prefer to handlay my track ..."
Then someone else posts:
"Track, yeh, I remember the time I was walking along the CSX tracks and I ran into a rattler ..."
And then we get 6 more posts about the time people encountered snakes.
Finally someone will post:
"You were asking about flex track, right? What did you want to know ..."
A FORUM IS THE WRONG FORMAT
Long story short, the chronological, stream-of-consciousnous format of a forum is handy for documenting some conversation around a topic and generating some quick fun energy, but it's a bear to search and refer to later.
The better approach is a wiki -- it uses a topical structure not unlike a loose leaf notebook with tabs -- and like this forum, anyone can post content to a wiki!
But I don't expect MR to stand up a model railroading wiki anytime soon. Maybe I'm cynical, but were I in their shoes, I'd want you to come to my website, learn a little more about the hobby in the forums, and then decide you need to subscribe to my magazine and perhaps buy a few of my books on some hot topics you'd like to know about.
If you came here and found a nicely organized Model Railroading wiki loaded with interesting articles, you might just decide you didn't need nearly as many of those publications after all, especially if the wiki, like this forum, were free.
This forum has the advantage that it gives you the sense there's great free info on the internet about the hobby, but in practical terms, as a building repository of hobby knowledge, a forum sucks. Books are much better organized and easier to use than this forum ... and books aren't free, so they help Kalmbach keep the lights on.
Yep, I'm cynical.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
betamax wrote:The best part about books and magazines is that they all work the same way. No strange keys needed, no keyboards, no mice, no bulky computers. Or a screen that forces you to position yourself to read it.You pick up a book, and it works. No time wasted booting it up, or waiting for it to download a gigabyte worth of updates. It just works.Plus it doesn't force you to conform to it's way of doing things. You put it in a position that is comfortable, and it just works. No cords or bulky batteries to limit movement or time either.Last time I looked, bookstores were full of books and doing good business selling them. So the concept of the internet giving you everything for free, and easily found too, is obviously wrong. The internet only contains the information that someone bothered to put there. Websites come and go, and some get stale quickly. Or just are of little value. Or the content doesn't even reflect the subject, or is just plain irrelevant.The internet has its place, but it is there to supplement, not replace printed materials and old fashioned research.
Park that quote right here. Nothing beats a book. The internet is helpful and there's an amazing amount of information out there, but searching and searching can get old. I can't count the number of times I got sidetracked looking up something only to realize that 2 hours passed and I never really found what I was looking for in the first place. I believe in researching my hobby, but sometimes you have to admit that there's TOO much information out there to sift through. It's overwhelming. I'd rather search for books on Amazon.com or (gulp) my local hobby shop!
As far as these message boards, they're helpful, but again I find myself wasting time looking through pages and pages and pages of threads trying to find the "perfect" answer. While sometimes I ultimately find what I was looking for, getting a dozen different answers isn't necessarily the most helpful. I've learned that what works for some doesn't always work for all. Otherwise, I enjoy the "what are you doing on railroad" types of threads where people share their work.
To answer your posted topic I will have to echo the thoughts and words of all who have replied before me. The simple answer is YOU DO, I do and we all do.
Do you get passing grades just by reading the cheat notes bought down at the Quickie Mart and not attend class to listen to the teacher who will be writing the test? You're fixing to get yourself schooled the hard way! You are relying on all the people on this and other forums to give the info you hope will save you time and money. How did we get that info? So if you don't think you need the publications don't come asking the people who sat through class and got their knowledge and wisdom in part from publications.
One of my favorite model RRs is the freelance Utah Belt. Go Google it and try to get enough info so you can accurately model one of its SD40-2s from what's on line. You can't find much on line about it but you can find over 400% more in what has been published in MR and RMC. The same is true with Joe Fugate's RR and knowledge. SpaceMouseand others have tried to give you info to help you with your Northeastern logging track plan. But logging in the Northeast isn't in our interest so we don't have all the knowledge you want because we haven't read through the publications on that subject. It is obvious you don't have the knowledge on that subject and you haven't read what is written in the publications on that subject. Do you see the parallel?
I have cut way back on my book purchases lately and put this money into "how to" videos. I still subscribe to a couple of magazines but I have found the videos to be extremely helpful. Many videos I have watched half a dozen times and still pick up new info each time I watch.
Mike B.
selector wrote:You know.....throne room....baroom room....magazine room..... You wouldn't, you know, do your thing with a laptop across your lap...would you?
I'm glad someone understood what I meant! Great minds thinks alike.
Magnus
Well, in that case, I think I will scan in the cover of the latest MR, shrink it down to 1:87, print it out and leave it inside my WS outhouse with the open door. I'd like my citizens to have something better than the Sears Roebuck catalog to look at.
Oh, wait. I've got to get a copy of MR from the sixties for that. Gotta stick to prototype.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Midnight Railroader wrote: Lillen wrote: One word: Toilet MagnusOne other word: What?
Lillen wrote: One word: Toilet Magnus
One word: Toilet
What?
That is where the Internet can never replace a good magazine or book. When I'm sitting there with a book in my hand I'm at peace. I couldn't imagine surfing while sitting there.
Hi MPRR
All you say is true
But I would rather have the books on the shelf for instant access, because you are not going to instantly answer my questions at 3am your time
Both books and the internet have there place some of my books are old and have things I would never have though of and being on my book shelf when needed its out with the cling wrap and into the MRR room with the book wraped up.
Some books for my model railway are not even remotely about trains, but without them I don't know what I would have but its not a model railway train set perhaps.
But to those who willingly share there knowledge I say thank you.
regards John Busby
When we seek answers on the Internet, we are engaged in a targeted, self-directed learning process. We kind of know what we're looking for, and, if we are good reasearchers, we can find the information we're after pretty quickly.
If we pick up a copy of MR or RMC, though, we are entering something more like an instructor-led environment. We are no longer the seekers of knowledge, but rather the recipients. So, the information is not likely to be targetted exactly to your problem, but rather to be something which broadens your horizons, and causes you to see a larger picture. You may get a new idea, or see a technique which will influence what you do 6 months from now.
Each of these has its place, and I'm glad that I can avail myself of both.
I say "I need publications, thats who!"
This forum and the internet is a great help.. especially when I have -specific- questions and to glean interesting tips and techniques. I have not at all found it a substitute for a good MRR library. Of course, given my steadily growing library and the way my wife's eyes roll whenever I tell her I have bought more MRR back issues on ebay, I have a bias that way.
I agree with other posters, at times it gets old answering questions that are covered more completely and fully in print but I try to be patient, answer the question, and provide a reference..
Chris
Lillen wrote:One word: Toilet Magnus
Magnus,
You have a remarkable grasp of the human language!
Warm regards,
I buy books or publications because sometimes it is a heck of a lot easier to read and digest than to decipher through pages and pages of old forum posts that have usually degraded into a kit bash vs. rtr debate, or agonizing over the death of the hobby :)
Actually, I usually only buy MR books if I couldn't find specific info on the web...
betamax wrote:You can learn a lot off the internet...But....There is a lot of misleading, or downright wrong information floating around out there being passed off as the truth. So, buyer beware.If you are going to spend the time to write a book and put your name on it, you'll try your best to get your story straight. After all, people will remember you as the guy who got it wrong. Magazines will check your story and either make corrections, or just refuse it if it is wrong. They have reputations to protect too.Before the internet, the "experts", cranks and crackpots out there had a limited audience. The internet gave them a global platform, with slick graphics and fancy webpages to present their "stories". Unlike publishing a book, the cost of doing so is very little. Plus the advantage of hiding behind an alias, and being an "unknown" to most visitors. So the author can claim to be an expert on anything.So you have to turn the filters on.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
MPRR wrote:With all knowledge that can be harvested right here in just this forum, why would anyone spend 50 buck or more on books giving pretty much the same answers to our questions. SnipMike
With all knowledge that can be harvested right here in just this forum, why would anyone spend 50 buck or more on books giving pretty much the same answers to our questions. Snip
Mike
Mike, anyone who relies exclusively on the advice of the 'forums' will most likely waste hundreds even thousands of dollars and even more hours with less to show for it than those who buy the books, find good mentors and starts at the beginning.
Instead they will start right out spending months learning x-track-cad to design a completely prototypical multilevel mushroom with twin helix and hidden staging, the perfect starter layout.
Multi-tasking, during the second week comes the first real expense, a full duplex radio DCC system. Following closely will be buildng hand laid curved turnouts and multiple double slips on 1.5" foam roadbed. It really is that easy and so much more reliable than commercial. For locomotives installing the most expensive decoders in wornout mantua and rivorossi locomotives will be a snap. And it only gets better from there. After all, what is a little shared knowledge among friends.
Wish it was satire. . .
Joe Daddy
loathar wrote: So....Are you saying I can't believe everything I read on the internet??
So....Are you saying I can't believe everything I read on the internet??
So loathar is your real name?
betamax wrote:You can learn a lot off the internet...But....There is a lot of misleading, or downright wrong information floating around out there being passed off as the truth. So, buyer beware.
MR is the only thing I buy, but I am looking at a copy of Diesel Detailing. I've found it's a bit of a pain researching that subject on the net. I'd rather pay the $$$ to have the info in one convenient place.
I appreciate your honesty, and gratefulness for the information you have received from others. My peeve is not aimed at you. But you opened the door for this rant. I see not just a few try to get by building a layout without buying any books. It becomes pretty obvious from the questions, particularly if the issue deals with wiring (my forte). And some other model railroading forums are far worse than this one with new posters demanding complete answers (with diagrams and pictures) to the same questions that get asked repeatedly. Helping with a particular issue is one thing. But when I realize the poster is going to need repeated hand-holding, and that 3 paragraph text posts aren't going to cut it, I have to think about where my priorities are before committing to a full-blown tutorial. Especially if I have already provided ordering information for a book or a link to a web site that covers in detail what the poster needs - and those links and suggestions have been ignored.
It takes a fair amount of time and effort to set up a tutorial on wiring for model railroads, no matter whether the medium is a web site or a book. Diagrams and pictures with accompanying text take time to draw, write, vet, and publish/post. The host of our forum publishes excellent books (including wiring) at pretty reasonable prices. Those who are unwilling to pay for the author/creator's time are not just cheap, they are unethical IMHO. And I speak as one whose total model railroading budget is/has been $40 a month in the good times.
Wiring is just the example I used in this rant. There are plenty of other topics. I was rebuffed myself when I asked for guidance about a particular model locomotive. I was told, and properly so, that I should have tried the search engine first. The poster still provided me with the links and information I requested. But I have taken to heart his advice about searching first.
just my thoughts and rants
Fred W