HarryHotspur,
The second photo which uses the spiral daylight fluorescent matches the normal color of the layout.
I also have incandescent lights in the ceiling which I plan to control with a dimmer switch. My plan of operation when visitors are present, is to have both systems on to simulate daylight. At some point I will switch off the spiral fluorecent bulbs and slowly dim the incandescent bulbs to simulate the setting sun. Finally blue lights will be turned on for nighttime lighting.
I agree with some of the comments about headaches and fluorescent lighting. Years ago when I worked in a laboratory I experienced eye and head problems and extreme fatigue but only when I worked on the evening shift. It was traced back to the fluorescent lighting.
I have been using the new spiral bulbs for a year so far and have not had a problem.
Doc
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Topcopdoc,
Which photo most closely matches the colors on your layout?
- Harry
ratled wrote:You really should reconsider your use of fluorescent bulbs in your planning. As our down under and northern friends know that these are coming weather we want them or not. They have a mandatory use coming in 2012. Most likely we will too. A quick search will show all the bad news such as this http://www.krcgonline.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=81580As for the hazard it's not as bad as the federal PSA make it seem - yea they already made a Public Service Announcement on how to clean up and dispose of the bulbs. To me it's les then gasoline being a hazardous material and needs a trained technician to dispense (sorry Oregon guys).Regular fluorescents give me a headache after a short while and I find that the full spectrum lights help. They also won't fade you layout like standard ones willratled
You really should reconsider your use of fluorescent bulbs in your planning. As our down under and northern friends know that these are coming weather we want them or not. They have a mandatory use coming in 2012. Most likely we will too. A quick search will show all the bad news such as this
http://www.krcgonline.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=81580
As for the hazard it's not as bad as the federal PSA make it seem - yea they already made a Public Service Announcement on how to clean up and dispose of the bulbs. To me it's les then gasoline being a hazardous material and needs a trained technician to dispense (sorry Oregon guys).
Regular fluorescents give me a headache after a short while and I find that the full spectrum lights help. They also won't fade you layout like standard ones will
ratled
How many times can I say it and get it through some people's thick skulls:
Flourescents are NOT an option! I have eye issues with them, and no matter what anybody says, even the so-called full spectrum or daylighter flourescents are a real pain for me to deal with.
And what I have to say about thay idiot in the White House and some of his policies aren't printable in public. We'll be under his 'beneficience' for years to come even after he's out of office. Sorry for the political rant but that's the way I see it.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
Capt
There are 2 general types of flourescent lighting - those with magnetic ballasts (old style) and those with electronic ballasts. Flourescent lights with magnetic ballasts operated at 60 Hz (power line frequency) and often did visibly flicker, especially as the tube aged.
The newer electronic ballasts tend (but not always) to operate at a much higher frequency for greater power efficiency. I dare say very, very few can see the flicker from a warmed-up CFL, although just because it's not visible doesn't mean there is no "flicker" effect. But the combination of new phosphors and higher frequency have eliminated the flicker effect for almost all.
But there are plenty of old-style flourescents still in use, especially in non-residential buildings, to give people such as yourself problems. All I am really saying is give modern flourescents a chance - you might be pleasantly surprised.
FWIW, the only reason an incandescent bulb doesn't "flicker" is the time lag in change of filament temperature from a change in current. The time lag is great enough that the sinusodial 60 Hz AC just affects the average filament temperature rather than the instantaneous.
Also, FWIW, when I ran a military unit in Kodiak, Alaska we switched to high frequency, full-spectrum flourescent lighting from the standard cool white magnetic ballast tubes. The switch in frequency was an energy saving measure, but we had to fight for the extra money to pay for the full spectrum tubes. We had a siginificant decline in behavior and depression problems during the dark Alaska winter after the change. The XO and I ended up calling the full spectrum lights "happy lights", and became believers.
It is the UV portion of the spectrum that causes most of the color fading. Incadescent bulbs run at such a cool temperature (spectrum-wise) that the UV output is effectively nil. Some flourescent bulbs and tubes put out more UV spectrum than others. The full spectrum and cooler temperature ("warm white") bulbs will put out less UV than traditional "harsh white" bulbs.
Fred W
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
I use Compact Flourescents. They will fit in your incandescent sockets, use less power, and run a lot cooler. I purchased a number of GE 6500k "daylight" 10W (40W equiv) and mounted them two on each side of the backdrop of my 3x5 N layout. They provide a nice even daylight. Maybe a little too blue.. on my next one I may try 5000K lights but these look nice and were $6 a pair at Walmart.
The only downside is they don't dim. Even the ones labeled "Dimmable" will produce a buzzing sound.
At some point I plan to buy at least a couple high CI (color Index) bulbs and see if it makes a difference. Those bulbs should, if I understand it, have a much more even range of color regardless of color temperature where normal CF bulbs can be a bit spikey.
Chris
The bulbs I use in my softboxes are:
Falconeyes brand FE3005-10
24W Color temp 5000-5500K
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
A) I am not aware of any daylight incandescent bulbs. Incandescent bulbs change color when they are dimmed.
B) The compact fluorescent bulbs that screw into a standard incandescent socket DO come in daylight. I use 24 of them in each softbox in my camera room. Brightness is controlled by turning some of the bulbs off.
C) Unless you are shooting film, color should not be a problem in your photos because most digital cameras have the ability to compensate for ambient color temperature, though it may not be automatic, you may have to select it with a switch.
D) I am a fan of the KISS principle. I, therefore, tend to shy away from gels and other light modifiers if possible.
dstarr wrote: Daylight is 6000 degrees Kelvin. Incandescents run around 1/2 of that, the limitation is melting of the tungstun filament. Actually the really bright photo flood bulbs and the halogen bulbs run a little warmer than plain old supermarket light bulbs, at the sacrifice of 90% of bulb life. Plain old light bulbs last 1000 hours, the photoflood bulbs are gone in a hundred hours. However the difference in color temp isn't enough to effect color film. Color film is fussier than the human eye so the small difference in color temp won't show to the eye. The eye adapts to color. Put on green sunglasses and at first the world looks green. After 5 or 10 minutes colors look normal again. Color under incandescents is actually much redder than under daylight, but the eye never notices. It adapts to the redder light and colors look right again. So if you aren't thinking in terms of photography, ordinary incadescents will make your layout look fine, and if you want to do photography, buy "tungstun" color film and the colors will come out right. The new fluorescent bulbs, the ones about 1 inch in diameter with electronic ballasts, are a lot better color wise than the old "cool white" tubes. They do come with color temp ratings as high as 5000 Kelvin. Visit a lighting store and bring some red test items along. You may be pleasantly surprised by how good the new fluorescents look.
Daylight is 6000 degrees Kelvin. Incandescents run around 1/2 of that, the limitation is melting of the tungstun filament. Actually the really bright photo flood bulbs and the halogen bulbs run a little warmer than plain old supermarket light bulbs, at the sacrifice of 90% of bulb life. Plain old light bulbs last 1000 hours, the photoflood bulbs are gone in a hundred hours. However the difference in color temp isn't enough to effect color film. Color film is fussier than the human eye so the small difference in color temp won't show to the eye.
The eye adapts to color. Put on green sunglasses and at first the world looks green. After 5 or 10 minutes colors look normal again. Color under incandescents is actually much redder than under daylight, but the eye never notices. It adapts to the redder light and colors look right again. So if you aren't thinking in terms of photography, ordinary incadescents will make your layout look fine, and if you want to do photography, buy "tungstun" color film and the colors will come out right.
The new fluorescent bulbs, the ones about 1 inch in diameter with electronic ballasts, are a lot better color wise than the old "cool white" tubes. They do come with color temp ratings as high as 5000 Kelvin. Visit a lighting store and bring some red test items along. You may be pleasantly surprised by how good the new fluorescents look.
As I mentioned in my original post, flourescents are not an option as I cannot install new fixtures; I'm working with existing ones. And I have issues with cfl's as well (see another reply post by me here).
Having changed over to digital photography a couple of years back, color balance film useage is not a worry for me. Just set the right color balance on my camera or shoot RAW and work in Photohsop.
BlueHillsCPR wrote:I'll have to do some searching around. I was not aware that anyone was making a "full spectrum" incandescent. If you are going with incandescent I wonder why you say flourescent is not an option. I'm thinking compact flourecsent not tubular.Here are some links, not sure if they will be of much use or not.http://users.mis.net/~pthrush/lighting/glow.html http://www.assumption.edu/users/bniece/Spectra/HiResolution/Wg.pdfhttp://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/index.htmlhttp://www.grassrootsstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=307
I'll have to do some searching around. I was not aware that anyone was making a "full spectrum" incandescent. If you are going with incandescent I wonder why you say flourescent is not an option. I'm thinking compact flourecsent not tubular.
Here are some links, not sure if they will be of much use or not.
http://users.mis.net/~pthrush/lighting/glow.html
http://www.assumption.edu/users/bniece/Spectra/HiResolution/Wg.pdf
http://web.ncf.ca/jim/misc/cfl/index.html
http://www.grassrootsstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=307
Thanks for the links; it'll give me something to check on.
The reason I say flourescent is not an option is that I can't install new fixtures. I'm working with existing fixtures. I've tried and have issues with cfl's as well, personal as well as electronic interference as well. Another issue with these that most people don't realize is they have the same disposal issues as regular tubular flourescents have - they both contain small amounts of hazardous chemicals (mercury IIRC).
Here is my experience with both types of layout lighting.
I have my layout in my garage and I finally set up some room lighting. I got a sale on some fluorescent spiral light bulbs at Walgreen's. I bought some work lights at Home Depot and installed them using a 1x2 wood piece as a track.
Besides the low cost for everything I can move the light any place on the bar to get the best lighting. At the same time I set up a set of work lights with 85-Watt Tungsten floodlights and attached them to the bar. I plan to add a dimmer switch later on so that I can dim the lights for nighttime scenes.
Here is the scene with regular Tungsten 85 Watt floodlights.
Here is a picture with 100-Watt daylight bulbs.
The fluorescent bulbs actually only use 14 to 25 Watts.
I didn't realize what a difference in color the daylight bulbs made. It should be great for taking photos of the layout.
My own recommendation would be to just use CTB gels. These are theatrical gels that are specifically designed to convert tungsten color temp (3200K) to cooloer (bluer colors). Full CTB will convert you to full 6500K, while 1/2CTB will convert to 4100K.
My plan (once I get something other than bare plywood to light) is to use progressive layers of 1/4CTB to provide bluer light toward the top of the room and warmer light lower down.
The gels are cheap (a $5 sheet will go a long way) and last forever. Just make sure you leave adequate ventilation for your bulbs and fixtures.
Peter
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I want to get light bulbs (incandescent; flourescent isn't an option) to light my layout. Want to make it look light daylight, not necessarily high noon like in another post here. I know from my photograpgy that each light source has a different color temperature, and what the typical color temp for daylight is. Plus, with my color temp meter, I can go outside and measure daylight. Fair enough.
The problem comes about when trying to find a suitable light bulb. Neither GE, Philips, or any of the other incandescent manufacturers put light temperature on the sleeves the bulbs come in, and I've found nothing in cursory searches of their websites. Unfortunately, Home Depot, Ace, or any of the other home improvement stores have some place I can screw in a bulb to check with the meter. I know what temp a standard incandescent is, but there are other types on the market. So-called full spectrum bulbs, like the GE Reveal line. Philips makes one as well, I just don't remember the line's name. Does anyone know what the color temp would be, or point me to a web source for such? It could get expensive buying a bulb of each to take home and try out.
Not looking for lighting for photography, but general running of trains. For photography I've got photofloods and Photoshop.