Question: Have you ever handled dry ice? Your idea sounds workable, but you need to be aware that dry ice must be handled very carefully, wearing heavy gloves. If it ever touches bare skin it causes instant frostbite, and it will require a special storage container to prevent evaporation.
I think dry ice is still used in theatrical productions to generate fog. One of the local supermarkets has a freezer full of dry ice, but I have never seen anyone purchasing it.
cacole wrote:Question: Have you ever handled dry ice? Your idea sounds workable, but you need to be aware that dry ice must be handled very carefully, wearing heavy gloves. If it ever touches bare skin it causes instant frostbite, and it will require a special storage container to prevent evaporation.I think dry ice is still used in theatrical productions to generate fog. One of the local supermarkets has a freezer full of dry ice, but I have never seen anyone purchasing it.
Yes dry ice is more trouble than its worth, IMO. What about a fog machine expelling into a "chamber" with micro fans driving the fog out the steam vents...?maybe the fans would even be redundant as the unit puts out 1500 cubic feet per minuite!
If that's too much fog, then how does one control the fog?
Alternately why not make steam? Here's a cheap example of a steam engine.
Ok maybe not.
Hi, CACOLE:
Thanks for the comments! Yes, I know dry ice is pretty darned cold - it will disappear even if it is kept in a normal home freezer, which is much too WARM to store it! So I know if I went that route, I would have to buy a piece before any operating session featuring a steaming factory or mill. (Maybe that would be a good indication of when my operating session was over . . .) Or maybe I would have to keep a sign handy for the entrance to my mill: "CAUTION - MAINTENANCE SHUTDOWN IN PROGRESS" so the mill would still look realistic even when the dry ice had run out and the steam stopped!
I appreciate the warning on dry ice - it would have to be handled with heavy gloves or tongs, or I might find myself suffering a serious industrial injury for hanging around an HO scale pulp mill!
BlueHillsCPR:
Holy smokes (so to speak!) What a great idea! If the fog machine creates clouds that are non-irritating and don't leave a film of atomized "juice" on things, this would appear to be the perfect solution (testing notwithstanding). But for a $24 investment, it would be great to have simulated steam and smoke that could be turned on and of with the flip of a switch (as opposed to using dry ice, which will do whatever it's going to do in its own time). I'd like to get something like this and run some trials with the fans you refer to - it's possible one forced draft fan could feed them all, or, as you note, a micro fan (such as those for cooling computer hard drives) could be placed into the base of each stack or vent to force the fog out. It will be fun to find out!
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
Courage8 wrote:BlueHillsCPR:Holy smokes (so to speak!) What a great idea! If the fog machine creates clouds that are non-irritating and don't leave a film of atomized "juice" on things, this would appear to be the perfect solution (testing notwithstanding). But for a $24 investment, it would be great to have simulated steam and smoke that could be turned on and of with the flip of a switch (as opposed to using dry ice, which will do whatever it's going to do in its own time). I'd like to get something like this and run some trials with the fans you refer to - it's possible one forced draft fan could feed them all, or, as you note, a micro fan (such as those for cooling computer hard drives) could be placed into the base of each stack or vent to force the fog out. It will be fun to find out!
Glad you liked the concept...I started with my wifes steam iron, believe it or not
have fun trying it out and be sure to report your success or lack thereof here!
JOHNNY_REB
Hey that's a good one too...I wonder if a guy could rip the bones out of that and attach it as the chamber?
I seriously doubt that a water vaporizer type of humidifier would be a good idea for this purpose. The mist would tend to condense in the tubing and dribble back into the vaporizer, and the mist from them does not look at all like steam. Their theory is that the water droplets are so small they quickly evaporate in the open air, and would probably not travel through a tube of any substantial length.
Although it might be more trouble, maintenance wise, you could try some type of electric heater boiling a small pan of water.
I have no personal experience with them, but there are some fan driven smoke generators used on O and G scale locomotives that put out a fairly thick cloud of smoke or steam, and the oils are available in difference colors and smells. One or two of these would be easier and safer to maintain than some of the other ideas that have been bantered about.
You might consider looking around on the Garden Railways Magazine forum and the Classic Trains forum, to see what you can find out there about those devices.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Coming from a background in professional lighting and sound. My recomendation would be a small fog machine mounted under your layout. Somethign around the 1000 cubic foot per mintue range with a controler that allows you to control the amount of fog it produces. Have it piped into a holding chaber that you could pack full of smoke and then plumb that to your individual areas you want it to and have your fans mounted at the start of your pipe in your holding chamber. then you can turn on the ones you want I would also recomend a valve on each line so that if you didn't want steam coming out of certain areas you could close the pipe off. I know it sounds way more complicated then it needs to be. But could be a very worth while effort as a fog machine holds anywhere from a liter and up your refilling could be kept to a minimum and the amount it produces is very sigificant if you contane it in a confined area that is sealed.
Just a thought you could make a real smoker by putting a cigar in a mouth piece made into a sealed chamber with a fan pulling in air, and small tubing going to each stack. It would be real smoke if you don't mind the smell.
This is just a thought mind you as most people are non-smokers now and would be very offended by this.
This smoke chamber would be metal with the cigar inside and the fan would draw the air into the chamber forcing the cigar to smoke. With the chamber sealed the smoke would be forced up and out of the tubing on the mouth end of the cigar running to each "smoke" stack. The "smoker" would be make with two chambers, one to hold the burning cigar and the other to act as the manifold for the tubing. Fish tank air tubing would be used with a valve on each to control the stacks.
Even the smell of the cigar would make for more realism.
Thanks, Trax 21! A background in professional lighting and sound must be invaluable in creating realistic scale railroad scenes - our trains are actors, and all the layout's a stage, so to speak!
I DO NOT think your approach sounds too complicated - it's a matter of development and tailoring the technology to the effects I'm seeking - I could easily picture some constant backgroud stacks spewing white vapor for overall atmosphere, while I have hand-controlled fans to occasionally vent large clouds of steam from individual buildings or systems (probably accompanied by an electronically generated echoing "hiss" to add to the effect). Depending on the process used, pulp and paper mills function with huge amounts of steam for heating, drying, running power generators, and operating pollution recovery systems. (I'm interesting in using white "steam" for all the stacks and vents because, with modern pollution control requirements, white vapor is about the only thing you're likely to see coming from a stack unless something is working incorrectly in the mill. Compare this to the black, brown or gray dense plumes seen from stacks in factories of decades past!)
Interesting technology, Reb - though not likely to be popular with my wife, who is allergic to tobacco smoke! You're right about the realism added by stench, however - the mill I worked at frequently stunk of chlorine, sulfur dioxide, rotting wood, and several other less-than-pleasant aromas. Cigar smoke certainly wouldn't have been any worse!
Hi, Vet! In a modern pulp or paper mill, pollution control is a huge part of the technology - major portions of a mill, including what is typically the tallest structure in the plant, known as a "recovery boiler," are specifically dedicated to eliminating toxic emissions. To answer your question, I would be trying to simulate steam, which rises due to its temperature relative to surrounding air. Simulation of this will probably involve fog (which has good simulation color and other characteristics, and doesn't leave the smoky residue some posts here refer to.) I agree that a thick generated fog will tend to sink around the model, and think this could be compensated for in two ways:
1. Forced-draft fans pushing the fog rapidly from stacks and building vents will hopefully cause it to dissipate before it can visibly settle to the layout base, and
2. a low-flow external fan mounted just off one edge of the layout can generate a soundless prevailing "wind" which will carry the fog away from its point of origin and dissipate it to invisibility before it can make the mill look like a graveyard on Halloween.
ALL of this, however, is subject to testing, and I have no doubt that substantial tinkering and experimentation will probably be required to achieve the desired effects.
Courage8 wrote: Thanks, Trax 21! A background in professional lighting and sound must be invaluable in creating realistic scale railroad scenes - our trains are actors, and all the layout's a stage, so to speak!I DO NOT think your approach sounds too complicated - it's a matter of development and tailoring the technology to the effects I'm seeking - I could easily picture some constant backgroud stacks spewing white vapor for overall atmosphere, while I have hand-controlled fans to occasionally vent large clouds of steam from individual buildings or systems (probably accompanied by an electronically generated echoing "hiss" to add to the effect). Depending on the process used, pulp and paper mills function with huge amounts of steam for heating, drying, running power generators, and operating pollution recovery systems. (I'm interesting in using white "steam" for all the stacks and vents because, with modern pollution control requirements, white vapor is about the only thing you're likely to see coming from a stack unless something is working incorrectly in the mill. Compare this to the black, brown or gray dense plumes seen from stacks in factories of decades past!)
Glad you like my idea..... My only issue right now is I'm learning all the basics of modeling myself I have some good ideas but never know if they will work. I'm used to a much bigger setting where things aren't quite so fragile. As for the smoke you can purches differnt deneities, as well you may have to experiment with them a little to find the one that best suits your needs. Also I saw some good suggestions for piping. So depending on the amount of "steam you want" you could also very the size pipe leading to the stack.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
Jackn2: A warning not to be taken lightly (and not the only one posted here - another person referred to the results of extended "smoke" production as a "nightmare" - which sounds accurate for the music store!)
I'm going to focus on machines that use water-based fog (I have a suspicion that water/alcohol solutions may be involved for some of them). Even this could have its effects over a long period, however - such as, will the paint on roofs and other parts of buildings get faded or discolored? I was going to build a mill first and experiment with steam later, but I already have a powerhouse model with a smokestack, and may try the technology before the entire plant is even built. I admit it will be a challenge to try to reproduce the effects seen with the real thing:
Being an O-Gauger myself, I will say that if you are trying to recreate the effects in that last pic, my advice would be LOTS OF GOOD VENTILATION, regardless of what type of smoke or fog generator you end up using. Even the water based ones are going to put a lot of humidity into the air in what is most likely a relatively small enclosed space. The humidity will have it's own issues, as well as those who claim that smoke generators cause problems, which I haven't had any yet, but I don't have a permanent layout yet, and have only been 3-railing for less than 3 years now, so I guess I'll find out in the future about smoke unit residue.
Good Luck, it does sound like an interesting project,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Challenger:
I agree that good ventilation will be needed regardless of the final technology used. The concerns you note are one reason why I originally was going to try dry ice - carbon dioxide is about as clean as "steam" could get, with the possible exception of compressed liquid nitrogen, which can be kept in a pressurized container and wouldn't have the cold handling issues associated with actually having to move pieces of dry ice. Even so, releasing carbon dioxide from dry ice, or compressed nitrogen into a closed area for long enough will eventually asphyxiate the operator, which would tend to take a lot fun out of an operating session (that boomer's been transferred to the great layout in the sky . . .) So you are right - a well-ventilated train room will be required to safely represent a steaming mill.
Courage8 wrote:I'm going to focus on machines that use water-based fog (I have a suspicion that water/alcohol solutions may be involved for some of them). Even this could have its effects over a long period, however - such as, will the paint on roofs and other parts of buildings get faded or discolored?
If they do change, just think of them as weathering effects that occurred naturally!
I would suggest getting a photo shop program... and let your layout's visitor's use their imagination...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet, though it does tend to look corny, is cotton stretched out into the shape of a steam cloud with one end stuffed into the chimney. This doesn't move, so is very obviously artificial.
But no chemicals, heaters, dry ice, or other materials to fuss with.
Lee:
I agree that the animation could cause many problems completely out of proportion to the realism that white clouds from scale smokestacks would offer. I may end up taking your advice if the technical challenges prove too difficult to overcome. However, the difference between a static model of a large mill and one that is "alive" with steam is really the difference between a mill that is operating and one that isn't - there is something truly ominous about such an installation that has no steam around it; like finding a dead whale on the beach. A mill that goes without steam for too long is a dead thing - no money, no jobs.
Well, just remember, if you use dry ice, you'll need to write a big check to Al Gore to compensate for your expanded "carbon footprint."
BlueHills: I had overlooked the obvious answer you point out: Nothing looks more like steam than steam! I had a small steam engine when I was a teenager; it made billows of steam and also smelled like steam (and steam has a distinctive smell - or maybe it's the hot metal containing the steam . . .)
Here's a place that sells engines (but they ain't cheap!)
MODEL STEAM ENGINES: