Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
jecorbett wrote:Either I'm the luckiest modeler alive and all my commercial turnouts are perfectly in gauge, or perfect is not required for reliable operation. I have ample annecdotal evidence that indicates the former is not true, so I have to assume that you can get reliable operation on slightly less than perfectly gauged commercial turnouts.
Either I'm the luckiest modeler alive and all my commercial turnouts are perfectly in gauge, or perfect is not required for reliable operation. I have ample annecdotal evidence that indicates the former is not true, so I have to assume that you can get reliable operation on slightly less than perfectly gauged commercial turnouts.
I dunno about that,
The CVT 'kits' are apparently dead on (and self-gauging) as far as clearances.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Either I'm the luckiest modeler alive and all my commercial turnouts are perfectly in gauge, or perfect is not required for reliable operation. I have ample annecdotal evidence that indicates the former is not true, so I have to assume that you can get reliable operation on slightly less than perfectly gauged commercial turnouts. If I ever do encounter such a problem turnout, it will be a fairly simple matter to simply replace it. Much less bother than handlaying dozens of turnouts to get perfectly gauged track which I doubt I would get anyway.
Joe,
I presume Jecorbett was referring to flex track.......I think the equation changes considerably when you are talking about turnouts...
I think most of us want hand laid quality without taking the time to actually hand lay turnouts or having to pay an arm and a leg for fastrack jig produced turnouts assembled for us. If I was starting out now, I would have definately gone the Fast Tracks route and bought the jigs to build them myself. BTW: I think your CV ties combo turnouts are a good solution to the problem of detail vs reliability.
I probably will face this in a few years (many I hope) when my turnouts start to wear out. Mine are mostly ME and Shinohara. By then who knows, maybe there will be something else on the cutting edge....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
jecorbett wrote:As for the need to check track gauge, I have an NMRA gauge but have never found any piece of commercial track to be out of gauge. Maybe at one time this was a bigger problem but it seems to me that quality control has all but eliminated this problem. I've never checked my track unless I start having derailment problems and in those instances where I have had a trouble spot, I've never found it to be due to out-of-gauge track.
As for the need to check track gauge, I have an NMRA gauge but have never found any piece of commercial track to be out of gauge. Maybe at one time this was a bigger problem but it seems to me that quality control has all but eliminated this problem. I've never checked my track unless I start having derailment problems and in those instances where I have had a trouble spot, I've never found it to be due to out-of-gauge track.
A few years ago, MR had an article where they checked the dimensions of many commercial turnouts on the market and NONE of the turnouts had the correct check gauge through the frog, one of the most critical dimensions in a turnout.
I recently checked a Walthers DCC friendly turnout and a Peco code 83 and neither of those had the correct check gauge ... while my Central Valley tie kit built turnout was perfect (click on images to enlarge):
All three turnouts side by side
Walthers turnout is off quite a bit
Peco turnout is much better but still not perfect
CV turnout tie kit built turnout is spot on
So contrary to rumor, most commercial turnouts compromise on dimensions thinking the extra "slop" will make the turnout more forgiving ... when in fact it means you can expect less reliable performance through commercial turnouts. If you want to know how I made my CVT tie kit turnout, I've posted the steps with photos on my web site.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Perhaps I was insufficiently clear in my previous post.
I use flex track for 'plain-Jane' two rails on ties track. However, I hand-lay all of my specialwork, to my own chosen standards, with raw rail on wood ties - without jigs or any form of pre-manufactured parts.
There is no rule of model railroading that says you can't mix and match hand-laid, flex, sectional and even pre-ballast-formed track with wild abandon. As long as the gauge is consistent (and conforms to NMRA standards) and the joints line up, trains will run on it.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - flex track, hand-laid turnouts)
DeadheadGreg wrote: Handlaying track certainly is no hold-over from the past.... Handlaying track is actually entirely necessary if you want to do any kind of customized trackwork. Not handlaying limits you to what is already available, ie: #4, #5, #6, and #8 turnouts, and #6 curved turnouts, as well as a handful of double slips, 3-ways, and double-crossovers (which you'll be forking out about... 40 bux for, each, from Shinohara as opposed to the maybe 8 bux to make your own). You are at the mercy of the manufacterers; they determine the possibilities for your trackplan. Not being able to fit in that extra passing track because you cant buy a slightly curved #6 1/2 turnout would certainly be annoying. by the way, do you have any relatives in upstate NY?
Handlaying track certainly is no hold-over from the past.... Handlaying track is actually entirely necessary if you want to do any kind of customized trackwork. Not handlaying limits you to what is already available, ie: #4, #5, #6, and #8 turnouts, and #6 curved turnouts, as well as a handful of double slips, 3-ways, and double-crossovers (which you'll be forking out about... 40 bux for, each, from Shinohara as opposed to the maybe 8 bux to make your own). You are at the mercy of the manufacterers; they determine the possibilities for your trackplan. Not being able to fit in that extra passing track because you cant buy a slightly curved #6 1/2 turnout would certainly be annoying.
by the way, do you have any relatives in upstate NY?
I made the statement that handlaying is a hold over from the past because my very unscientific observations tell me very few modelers still do it that way. I'm sure those that still do have reasons that make very good sense for them, but for most of us, commercial track is a wonderful convenience.
While it is true that by not handlaying track you limit yourself to commercially available turnouts, I don't find that much of a limitation. My LHS stocks everything from #4s to #8s as well as curved and other special turnouts. I've never had a case where I couldn't get one or another of the commercial turnouts to fill the need. It certainly seems much easier to me to adjust a track plan then to scratchbuild a turnout to fit the track plan.
As for appearance, I'm sure it hand laid track looks wonderful if done well, but you can put as much or as little effort into weathering flex track as you want and it can look just about as good hand laid if you want to make the extra effort. I personally don't do much at all in that regard because my eyes simply don't look down at the track. They are drawn to what is above it. I look at track the same way I do backdrops. It doesn't have to be eye popping to be effective. It just needs to suggest to the viewer that there is something there without needing to draw his attention. If I thought my unweathered plastic tie track was a distraction, I would do something about it, but it just doesn't bother me in the least.
As for the need to check track gauge, I have an NMRA gauge but have never found any piece of commercial track to be out of gauge. Maybe at one time this was a bigger problem but it seems to me that quality control has all but eliminated this problem. I've never checked my track unless I start having derailment problems and in those instances where I have had a trouble spot, I've never found it to be due to out-of-gauge track. If I ever tried to hand lay my own track, I have no doubt I would have a lot more trouble with out of gauge track than I do now.
Lastly, I'm sure you save some bucks by hand laying track but at what cost in time. I just can't imagine that any of the benefits you cite would justify the additional time. My time is at least as valuable to me than my money. If I can save a lot of extra time by spending a few more bucks, that is a trade off I will make in a heartbeat. I think most modelers feel the same way which is why so few still do it the old fashioned way. For those who prefer to do it that way, wonderful. It's not for me to tell someone else how they should build their layout, but if I was advising someone, I would tell them to spend a few more bucks and get the ready made track.
To answer your last question, to the best of my knowledge, I have no relatives in upstate NY.
Yes, flex track has come a long ways.
MicroEngineering flex track has scale tie plates and spike heads (2-4 spikes per tie on each rail), and the tie ends vary randomly just like the prototype.
Nicely ballasted and weathered ME flex track looks way better than anything you could get 30 years ago, including handlaid. Here's some of my ME flex track (Code 83 main, code 70 siding) that's been ballasted and weathered:
(Click to enlarge)
I think this HO model track photo shows that today's flex track has certainly come a long ways from what was available 30 years ago. I have a hard time imagining a product that could be much better.
jecorbett wrote:Hand laying track falls in the same category as scratchbuilding structures and rolling stock. It's something that used to be an integral part of the hobby but now it is just a hold over from the past. It is totally unnecessary and is only done by those who want to do it. For the life of me I can't imagine a bigger waste of time. It's a snap to drop in a 3 foot section of flex track in any type of curve you can think of. I will never understand why someone would want to lay down each individual tie and then spike rail to it making sure to keep the rails properly spaced the whole way when some has already done that for you for a minimal cost. I'm sure there are some who find that sort of activity fun or relaxing. As for me, I would paraphrase Henry Higgins and say I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling then to ever hand lay my own rail.
Also, while yes, you are right that the rail is already affixed to the ties for you, that does not guarantee that it will be in guage. Yes, it will be more or less fine, but you are going to have to go back and check it anyway to make sure. Handlaying allows you to be 100% confident and reliable with your trackwork, as you have created every inch yourself. Also, ballasting sure is a hell of a lot easier when you handlay. None of those pesky rails to get in your way... And while painted ME flex certainly does look wonderful, stained wooden ties have a look all their own that cannot be copied, as well as the look of an actual spike in a tie holding the rail down.
I mean, I'll say straight up that I held your view until I actually pushed in my first spike. And what with the Central Valley tie-strips today, you can basically lay track at flex-track speed and have it operate much better and more reliably. Handlaying opens up a whole world of possibilities. And even not using the Central Valley tie-strips doesn't matter; all you have to do is build yourself a tie jig, and you can create your own tie-strips. All it takes is the, what, 2 minutes to put the ties in the jig and then the 29 seconds to lay a strip of masking tape across the tops and then pick it up and place it on the layout. You should be drawing your center lines to begin with anyway...
I have hand-laid track (four spikes per tie) and I have used flex - everything from brass Code 100 rail stapled to fiber tie strip to present-day Code 83 nickel-silver on 'concrete' ties. My present layout is being built with flex (some of which dates back to the '60s) and hand-laid specialwork.
IMHO, while hand-laid track used to be necessary, it is NOT as visually pleasing as present-day flex (I use the antique stuff for hidden track.) Also, there are a finite number of hours in a day, and there are things to do beside tracklaying. My construction progress, slow to begin with, would be reduced from turtle's pace to snail's pace if I was handlaying track.
So, I would say that flex track is still the standard - but the standards to which flex track is manufactured have improved tremendously in thirty years.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Yes, flex-track is still the standard, but there HAVE been improvements, and today's flex track is not what you remember from 30 years ago. Some of that old flex-track was on "circuitboard" ties that had no character whatsoever. Today's flex track has tie plates and ties. The appearance is FAR better than years ago, and you have your choice as to size of rail. 30 years ago most commercial track for HO was Code 100 and the "hand lay your track" folks usually opted for Code 70. Code 83 is very popular now. There are variences between some of the brands as to whether there are pre-formed holes for spikes. Many folks now glue the track down rather than spiking.
I used to primarily hand-lay my track in Code 70 on wood ties, and doing so was one of my favorite parts of the hobby. I've found that my eye-orbs just don't perform that task as well as they used to, so on my "new" railroad I went with all commercial turnouts and flex track in Code 70. The around-the-wall shelf layout thus became operational this winter.
And wait 'till you see how wood structure kits have developed in 30 years! Laser-cut wood can make wonderful detail, where we used to be using cardstock....
Bill
After doing LS for the last 18 years I am doing a On30 layout. Since I'm starting over my plan is to use Flex track. Micro-Engineering where visable and Atlas where it's not.
Dave
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
DeadheadGreg wrote: you could just handlay. Its a hell of a lot cheaper, and it REALLY ISN'T HARD TO DO! Plus, its fun!!! actually.... industry advancements? Look no further than Central Valley's tie-strips. Its basically like flextrack for handlaying. The stuff is pretty cheap, too. but yeah. Definitely go for handlaying. For about $50, you can get 100 feet of rail. lets see.... 99 divided by 3 feet is 33 pieces of flex track. ME flex costs ~5 per piece. Whats 33 times 5? A hell of a lot more than $50, thats for sure.
you could just handlay. Its a hell of a lot cheaper, and it REALLY ISN'T HARD TO DO! Plus, its fun!!!
actually.... industry advancements? Look no further than Central Valley's tie-strips. Its basically like flextrack for handlaying. The stuff is pretty cheap, too.
but yeah. Definitely go for handlaying. For about $50, you can get 100 feet of rail. lets see.... 99 divided by 3 feet is 33 pieces of flex track. ME flex costs ~5 per piece. Whats 33 times 5? A hell of a lot more than $50, thats for sure.
Hi Greg,
33 times $5 is $165.
But I don't know where you're getting the idea that handlaying is really all that much cheaper than using flex track these days. 100 feet of rail is NOT 100 feet of track, it's 50 feet. At $0.51 per foot (the price from Proto:87) that turns into $3.06 per yard of track. Add a bag of 1000 tieas and a bag of 600 spikes, and the total price for 50 feet of track is about $77.90.
A piece of Atlas code 83 flex is $5.25, or $1.75 per foot, or $87.50 for 50 feet. You'll save $9.60 by handlaying.
A six pack of Micro Engineering code 83 flex track is $32.95, or $1.84 per foot, or $92 for 50 feet. You'll save $14.10 by handlaying.
Now, my time is worth at LEAST $14 an hour, even if I am doing things I like to do. I can definitely lay 50 feet of premade flex track (so long as no switches get in the way) in about an hour. How long will it take me to: 1) properly space the ties and lay them; 2) sand the tie tops; 3) mark the centerline for the first rail; 4) lay the first rail; 5) lay the second rail? A whole heck of a lot longer than one hour!
Oh: a bulk pack of 50 feet worth of code 83 rail and Central Valley tie strips costs $84.85. For track that looks as good as Micro-Engineering (both include tie plates), but which you have to assemble yourself, you'll save a whopping $7.15.
Now, if you LIKE handlaying track that's fine; have fun. I'd even go so far to say that in many applications, handlaying TURNOUTS is cheaper and better than using commercial ones. But to say that handlaying is "a hell of a lot cheaper" just isn't true.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
you could just handlay. Its a hell of a lot cheaper, and it REALLY ISN'T HARD TO DO! Plus, its fun!!! There is something oddly calming and relaxing about putting spikes into ties and holding your rail down... I think it gives you an exponentially greater feeling of accomplishment, also.
actually.... industry advancements? Look no further than Central Valley's tie-strips. Its basically like flextrack for handlaying. They come in ~12 inch sections that you can connect together to make a single, unified unit however long you want to. PLUS, they have tie-plate detail molded in, markers so you can sight along your track center-lines to make sure everything is aligned properly, BUT the best part, which is probably the most genius advancement, is that they GUAGE THE TRACK FOR YOU!!! Yes, thats right. All you have to do is put the rail in, and the ties hold it in guage. I mean, you definitely should use an NMRA guage anyway to make sure everything is perfect, but in theory you really don't need to. You can glue the track onto the tie-strips using Barge cement or something else, or you can still spike the rail down (requiring a safety-pin or something to prime the ties by starting the hole for the spike if you use ME's micro or small spikes). They also offer turnout kits.
www.cvmw.com
the stuff is pretty cheap, too. and they also offer different tie spacings for branch line/yard/sidings and mainline track. They also just put out a new strip that basically takes the middle ground between the branchline and mainline tie-spacing which has spike detail molded in. You should push them over the base of the rail. I would prefer to still use traditional spikes.
The tie-strips from Central Valley don't include rail, but you can get packages of rail and tie-strips from Andy's Proto87 store
www.proto87.com
enjoy!!!
Use it all the time!
About the only folks who don't use it are those using the track with the ballast attached like Kato Unitrack. There are a few using sectional track, but they are definately the minority.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
As some of you may alreaady know, I'm re-erntering the hobby after a 30 year break. Th elocal hobby shop told me that Flex Track is still the most common used. After 30 years, is this still true?
I'm waiting on my Walthers catalog to see, but I would think that there had been some advances....
Q