pcarrell wrote: Zandoz wrote:The worst trait as far as I could see from the brief time I ran test oval on it years ago was sound...the luan acted as a drumhead.The foam layer counteracts that.
Zandoz wrote:The worst trait as far as I could see from the brief time I ran test oval on it years ago was sound...the luan acted as a drumhead.
The foam layer counteracts that.
No doubt...but I never got that far. I moved into an overgrown closet of an apartment, and had no room for it's intended use.
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
Thats funny, because I used Homosote for years and then switched to foam. You couldn't pay me to go back!
I used homasote over 1/2" ply on one layout and I liked it a lot. No problems with moisture, and it holds spikes really well (and they are easy to push in). I really think it's ideal for our purposes, but it can be a little hard to find.
On my latest layout, I gave up looking for homasote and I use cork roadbed on OSB. I'm pretty happy with it, too, but I would have preferred homasote. The OSB requires the use of power tools for contouring the stuff - I use a laminate trimmer and an assortment of small router bits for this. My die grinder with wood carving bits is useful, too.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
If I'm not mistaken, Homosote is a fiberboard and is suseptible to sucking up moisture. I don't know many modelers that use Homosote, but that may have to do with my geographical location. In northern Michigan, there seems to be an abundance of foamboard (DowFoam) available for home insulation uses. Since I am modeling south Florida, I wish I would have used 1" foam instead of 2". I need to add canals to my layout, but I have to cut down to the lauan and then build back about an inch with Gator board
Larry
rustyrails wrote: Don,Do you feel strongly that should scrap homasote in favor of 1" foam with cork roadbed?No. Since your modules will be fixed in place you do not have the same issues as a layout that must be light enough to be picked-up frequently and stored.I have Homasote on part of my layout and Homabed over foam on the rest. This is the first time I have used foam and actually I wish I had not - for the flat areas anyway. I have found out that foam dents easily. At my age I need a little support as I bend over to work on the rear of my layout (and my width is only 24 inches). If you put the heel of your hand directly down on the foam and apply even a little weight you leave a dent. I now use a scrap of masonite where I need to put my hand. This spreads out the weight and reduces denting.Good luck,-John
Don,
Do you feel strongly that should scrap homasote in favor of 1" foam with cork roadbed?
No. Since your modules will be fixed in place you do not have the same issues as a layout that must be light enough to be picked-up frequently and stored.
I have Homasote on part of my layout and Homabed over foam on the rest. This is the first time I have used foam and actually I wish I had not - for the flat areas anyway. I have found out that foam dents easily. At my age I need a little support as I bend over to work on the rear of my layout (and my width is only 24 inches).
If you put the heel of your hand directly down on the foam and apply even a little weight you leave a dent. I now use a scrap of masonite where I need to put my hand. This spreads out the weight and reduces denting.
Good luck,-John
John: Thanks for reply, big help, homasote it is.
I used the 1/8 lauan on my shelf railroad as the base material. It is screwed and glued to 1 x 4's with two inch foam board glue to the lauan surface. Each section is 24" deep and 8' long. No warping. I am very pleased with the setup.
For what ever it's worth, about 20 years ago I built a 4x4 layout table that was intended to be half of a more portable 4x8. The construction was 1x4s for a perimiter and 16" on center, with a 1/4" luan top. The luan was glued and brad nailed to the frame. Because of moving, the other section was not built, and the table became a hobby/storage table in my mom's basement...a location that is prone to extreme humidity swings. During a visit about 2 years ago, I was surprised to se that the table had held up quite well...still flat & square, and no separation of the luan plies. The worst trait as far as I could see from the brief time I ran test oval on it years ago was sound...the luan acted as a drumhead.
Another past use of luan was making what amounted to 5x4 torsion box table top (a hollow core door is a torsion box). A 1x4 perimeter 1/4" grooves routered 2" apart...the luan fitting into the groves, and the 2" space between the two layers of luan filled with a sheet of 2" foam. The result was very sturdy and light weight. It's served as the top of an articulated sewing trellis table for about 15 years in a normal no A/C Midwest household environment, and is still square and flat.
In one of the past Model Railroader Planning special issues, David Barrow mentioned using luan in his domino construction. He built the sides of each section with strips of 3/4 in" birch plywood then covered the top with 1/2" birch ply. He then used luan as roadbed cutting out drainage ditches and other contour before attaching. His idea was that if you grew tired of a certain section, you could strip off the track and luan and have a pristine domino to start over. Anyone tried this--does luan hold track spikes?
Cheers,
David
ArtOfRuin wrote:I appreciate all of your advice on the subject. The shelf-layout idea sounds interesting, but I am extremely space-limited right now. I may try to reduce the size from 4'x8' to something smaller like 4'x'6 or 3'x6' as someone suggested. If I didn't already have so much invested in HO scale, I would have considered a switch to N scale.In the meantime, I have some planning to do.
I appreciate all of your advice on the subject. The shelf-layout idea sounds interesting, but I am extremely space-limited right now. I may try to reduce the size from 4'x8' to something smaller like 4'x'6 or 3'x6' as someone suggested. If I didn't already have so much invested in HO scale, I would have considered a switch to N scale.
In the meantime, I have some planning to do.
As long as you are staying with HO (I did too), I encourage you to keep the width of your layout at 4ft. 4ft width allows 18" radius on a continuous run, even in a 4x5 or 4x6 configuration. If the width drops to 3ft, you are now limited to 15" radius. I have seen successful layouts with 12" radius in HO (the April 2008 Model Railroader has a good example), but you are a lot more restricted in what locomotives and rolling stock you can use. Each increase in radius increases the length of locomotives and cars that will be successful.
Of course, if you are willing to drop continuous run capability, then a bookshelf layout mounted on shelf brackets above your day bed and other furniture becomes a very feasible alternative. Typically, these shelves are 12"-18" deep for HO. Mount the shelf high enough so you can sit comfortably underneath, or pull the day bed out slightly from the wall. There are practical plans for shelf layouts in HO starting around 6ft in length (you day bed is slightly longer).
In my last house, the wife really liked the shelf layout idea. She thought of it as a display for my "expensive" trains instead of keeping it in boxes. I saw much more potential in the idea, realizing that a nice shelf layout, built to furniture quality, would serve both our purposes, even in the living room.
No matter which path you pick, I encourage you to build something. Since it's a small layout in any case, making changes is just part of the fun. Planning doesn't need to be that elaborate, and can be easily done full size by laying out actual track pieces on the surface. Mistakes don't cost much to fix. Just reading and planning doesn't get you really involved in model railroading the way that building a layout does. Trust me on this one.
Keep us posted, and watch the 32 sq ft layout design challenge for ideas.
builder of small layouts
Fred W
When building my current layout I was looking for a cheaper alternative to the foam roadbed I used last time and with none of the drawbacks associated with cork (it dries out and gets hard and brittle as well as acting like a noise amplifier when it gets that way) and less mess and instability then homosote. As I was walking through the local home improvement store I spotted something that might work, and even better, it was out of season so it was on sale!I use a foam base with my roadbed and track secured by the latex caulk. For roadbed I use rope caulking. It comes in a roll about 15' long, and it's perfect width for HO scale track right out of the box. Since I model N, I just tear it along the already formed centerline and I get about 30' of roadbed per box with no waste. The advantages are that it never dries out, so it's always soft and pliable (absorbs sound!), it can easily be molded to any curve radius you want, it's easy to cut with just a xacto knife to form turnout pads, crossovers and such, or you can use a wallpaper roller on it to flatten it and make trasitions in rail heights or lower passing sidings in just a few seconds. As if that isn't enough, the latex caulk holds well to it, but you can still slip a putty knife in there and take up the rails without damage if you need (Spread the caulk very thin with a putty knife when you lay it down and then lay the tracks and use some canned goods laid lenthwise along the tracks to hold it while it sets up). If you get it in the off season like me you can often find it for a buck or two a box. It comes in gray and brown that I've seen, though other brands may come in other colors.Here's what I bought...........http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture016.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture019.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture023.jpg http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture021.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture024.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/Picture002.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/pcarrell/Autumns%20Ridge/7-15-077.jpgHope this helps. It doesn't answer your question directly, but it does give you options.
Oh, and as to your first question, I used 1/4" Luan and 1/4" foam for much of my layout so far as the land is only going to go up from there. I bonded the two together and supported it every 12" and it's been up for a year and a half with no sagging at all. I'm in a climate controlled room, so that makes a difference I'm sure. I'll be using thicker foam on other portions of the layout, but the luan has worked well. Just support it well!
Appreciate any comments on my layout design which I am just now starting construction on by doing painting of the room. Preparing to start benchwork shortly is as follows:
Around room shelf design with 4 - 2'X4' modules 8', & 9' long, fastened to wall on back with legs on front. Shelf is box frames for easy moving made of 1" X 4"s, with 1X4 cross members 12" on center. 3/8" plywood base, with homasote on top of plywood. Cookie cut the single up and over grade on the homasote Raise up the homasote above the plywood. Spike track direct to homasote. On one side of the layout a 36" lift out-up bridge to enter the layout. Room is dry, moisture not an issue. I build a homasote layout 22 years ago with good results.
Plan to glue and screw the box frame together screw plywood to frame and glue/screw homsote to plywood.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Okay, paying closer attention to your parameters—must be stored vertically, and that you have ruled out traditional thickness of plywood due to the weight: May I suggest:
A 5 ½’ by 3 ½’ N-Scale layout can do more than a 4’ by 8’ in HO, so looking at a really good HO plan in that size and shrinking to fit would be my start, but probably not my choice…
The best options that come to my mind would probably be a shelf layout, modular layout, or something like a “hidden” layout built, say, into a window-seat with a removable top.
In other words, think outside of the 4’ by 8’ box. An L shape shelf layout is how I went for much the same reasons as you are facing. I like yards and local freight type operations so I have no loop as I do not need a train to be able to circle.
It seems to me you are trying to get the most railroad you can with very limited space; but those 4’ by 8’ designs tend to waste space, whereas linear layouts that do not require tight turns in every corner and/or at each end, plus to run such a railroad, you must allow access to at least three of the fours sides—it is like trying to put a pool table in a bedroom.
My “L” shaped shelf layout has a mainline track that terminates at each of the two ends. If I decided to add length, I may. If I decide I want a loop, I can construct a single track cartridge to latch in place to link the ends with a reciprocal “L.”
At any rate… a foam and ¼” luan with a 1 by 2 (or beefier) frame (as others have advised) certainly sounds like the construction method for you.
Crews
Phoebe Vet wrote: concretelackey wrote: Some people (I'm not one of them) just use those interior doors for the surface of their layout. They are flat, stiff, and relatively light. You can even put a hinge on the wall side if you want to just tip it up for storage like a Murphy bed.
concretelackey wrote:
Some people (I'm not one of them) just use those interior doors for the surface of their layout. They are flat, stiff, and relatively light. You can even put a hinge on the wall side if you want to just tip it up for storage like a Murphy bed.
Good thought. If you go by Fred's actual experience and do something shorter than 8 feet, then a slab door cannot be beat. You can't even buy the materials for the cost of a slab door.
If you can hang it from a wall as suggested, here is a neat idea:
-John
My personal favorite plywood is called Baltic Birch Plywood:
It is all birch and there are no voids. It typically comes in 5' X 5' sheets, in thicknesses from 1/8 inch and up. It is a joy to work with; it is very precise, and it really isn't too expensive. Most hardwood lumber dealers will get it for you and some dealers keep it in stock (you won't find it at Home Depot).
I'll not include my opinion of Luan (I have nothing good to say about it).
Spent 20 years on construction sites, once set an 8 inch by 22 inch by 22 foot long laminated beam, 14 feet above grade, with one other guy, and once set a 4 inch by 16 inch by 16 foot garage door header all by myself.
When our partially assembled layout had to move from one room to another, 4x8 open frame, roadbed and track only, it took every bit of strength I had and I almost dropped it.
concretelackey wrote: Another common use for luan (yet another way to spell it) is it what usually is the skin on the lower cost hollow core doors.
Another common use for luan (yet another way to spell it) is it what usually is the skin on the lower cost hollow core doors.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
rustyrails wrote:The key here is the quality of the plywood - not the thickness. Most plywood will warp over time if not attached to a strong frame - like 2x4's in household construction. Higher quality plywood is made to not warp in frameless construction such as cabinets.The 1/4" plywood with a luan skin is also a more stable sheet good to be used in places where warping cannot be tolerated. It has minimal structural strength but will not warp on its own if reasonably supported.My overall suggestion for a layout that must be:LightweightMoveable (frequently)Durable2" foam + 1/4" high quality (luan) plywood + 1x2 framing.Total thickness = 3 3/4 inches.Build the frame on a level surface. Be sure to glue the 1x2 framing together. Glue the plywood to the frame. Glue the foam board to the plywood. Be sure to do all these steps in the same session before any of the glue has had time to fully cure and harden.Make sure the plywood is fully adhered to the foam board. That is, a full surface coating between the two surfaces - not just a few wiggles of glue. You can get a small can of flooring mastics that is safe for foam. A mastic that is "water cleanup" is usually safe for foam. Use a notched trowel or putty knife to spread the mastic evenly over all the surface of the plywood. You can buy plastic notched putty knife and throw it away once done.Join the plywood and the foam together on a level surface; weight it down evenly and allow to dry overnight.Use 1/8" masonite or 1/4" plywood for a 3 3/4" fascia all around the layout. Make sure this fascia is also fully glued to the frame. This will add additional structural strength to resist warping and racking.Good luck,-John
The key here is the quality of the plywood - not the thickness. Most plywood will warp over time if not attached to a strong frame - like 2x4's in household construction. Higher quality plywood is made to not warp in frameless construction such as cabinets.
The 1/4" plywood with a luan skin is also a more stable sheet good to be used in places where warping cannot be tolerated. It has minimal structural strength but will not warp on its own if reasonably supported.
My overall suggestion for a layout that must be:
2" foam + 1/4" high quality (luan) plywood + 1x2 framing.
Total thickness = 3 3/4 inches.
Build the frame on a level surface. Be sure to glue the 1x2 framing together. Glue the plywood to the frame. Glue the foam board to the plywood. Be sure to do all these steps in the same session before any of the glue has had time to fully cure and harden.
Make sure the plywood is fully adhered to the foam board. That is, a full surface coating between the two surfaces - not just a few wiggles of glue. You can get a small can of flooring mastics that is safe for foam. A mastic that is "water cleanup" is usually safe for foam. Use a notched trowel or putty knife to spread the mastic evenly over all the surface of the plywood. You can buy plastic notched putty knife and throw it away once done.
Join the plywood and the foam together on a level surface; weight it down evenly and allow to dry overnight.
Use 1/8" masonite or 1/4" plywood for a 3 3/4" fascia all around the layout. Make sure this fascia is also fully glued to the frame. This will add additional structural strength to resist warping and racking.
What John said is a very good solution. However, you might want to make some stronger longitudinal girders (than 1x2) to provide stiffness when setting the layout on a table or similar. I would lean towards at least 1x3, and perhaps 1x4. See below for my reasons.
Some other thoughts from years of moving frequently (with a 4x8 that became a 4x6):
- a day bed is not 8ft from one end to the other. They are typically about 75"-80". You may want to limit your layout to 4x6.
- a 4x8 layout is rather unwieldly to manage in both sheer size as well as weight. You have to have another person to help you. A 4x6 is barely manageable by yourself, if built light.
- a 4x8 sometimes has difficulties beng manuvered into or out of a room. Stair cases and turns from a room into a hallway are often problems. It cannot be stood on end to get through a door way like a 4x6 can. Doors are typically 80" high.
- a 4x8 will not fit in many small bedrooms with adequate aisles - even when there is no furniture. Add furniture and you have no access. Again, a 4x6 does better.
- since the layout will be stored behind the day bed, what are you going to set the layout on when it is in use? A kitchen/dining table is not going to be a stable base for the 4x8, and you are going to need stiffer than 1x2s for the frame because of the extreme overhang, IMHO. Unless you have a pool table for the base, smaller is going to be easier.
All these factors favor less than a 4x8. Although I appreciated the extra space for the difference in track plans that a 4x8 provides in HO, it just didn't work as either a portable or a fixed layout in a small bedroom for me. I ended up cutting it to 4x6, and was much happier (and so was the wife!).
Another time, I built an under-the-Christmas tree layout sized 4x5, using 1.5" foam and 1/4" plywood. I built a picture frame of vertical 1x3 and glued the foam/plywood into the picture frame. It was very successful, standing vertically when not in use. I transported it to work and set up a Christmas display in my cube one year, setting the layout on some of the desktop. It was very light and quite manuverable.
But now I'm too the point where I don't want to be setting up and taking down a layout, railing and removing structures, locomotives, and rolling stock every session, and all the other labor associated with a portable layout. I'd rather do with a shelf layout that can remain in place semi-permanently. http://www.carendt.com/ has many tremendous ideas for small shelf layouts.
Just my thoughts, your choices
As someone has pointed out in one of the posts, luan plywood usually is available in 1/4" thickness which is used for underlayment under vinyl flooring in construction. 1/2" luan plywood can be special ordered at some lumber yards but probably not as a single-sheet order.
I'd suggest you use 1/2" Arauco brand pine plywood which has 5 plies, is A-C grade and is relatively flat. My local Lowes recently started carrying this plywood in both 1/2" and 3/4" thicknesses in 4' x 8' sheets. The 3/4" thickness has 7 plies. The Lowes item number for the 1/2" is #170770 and it sells for $23.44/ sheet as of 10 days ago. To get a good flat sheet, you may have to go down a few sheets from the top of the pile in the store. I've not yet worked with this plywood but I intend to use it to support a layer of 2" blue foam on my new N scale layout. It'll add some weight to your layout, but it will provide strength to the table top vs. using only the 2" foam layer supported directly on the 1 x frame. There was a discussion of plywoods in a recent thread in this forum. I believe the title of the thread was "1/2" or 3/4" Plywood ?..."
Bob
The luan, in my other hobby, will have a mahogany veneer on one side. I usually use it for drawer bottoms and I see it used a lot as the backing of furniture which only purpose is to keep the carcase square (with the added benefit of keeping the dust out of the back).
But why for a layout? First, it is usually only found in relative thin stock-- a 1/4" would be thick for luan. Second, you are paying for veneer that I can't see a purpose for-- you'll cover the veneer. Third, I am guessing it was suggested to insure you had a good smooth surface to work upon; but luan is not the only surfaced plywood.
With that said, I'm working on a shelf layout and using 1/4" ply over a 1x2 frame, but my shelves are only 12" deep. For a 4 by 8 layout, I would go for thicker stock for the simple reason that I would be crawling around on that deep a layout and I could foresee a knee possibly punching through between the underbracing. For my own ;layout, if luan was given me, I would have used instead.
But for a fascia around the layout-- that might be kind of nice.