I hope this makes sense... I have recently moved to my new house, finally one with a "train room" the plan of which is above, I have visions of a railway empire (don't we all) as usual its not as big as I would have hoped for but a lot bigger than I have ever had before! I have no intentions of moving from this house so this is it...
I have been anticipating this moment for many years and now its here the best I can do is confuse myself. After many years planning layouts in my head and on scrap paper the conclusions I have come to are:
I want to model a railroad right of way not a city or country side so a 12 to 18 inch shelf type (around the wall) layout is all that will be required, wider or narrower as necessary i.e. wider for a yard or large industry or narrower for a wider walkway or removable entrance bridge or swinging door (favoured). A duck under is not an option, I built one when I was a teenager and hated it then, my back is not the best so I will not even entertain this idea now.
It will be multi layered to add distance.
Point to point operation, a continuous loop option would be desirable but not an absolute if the point to point were long enough. A point to point would have at least one return loop.
Walkways will be as wide as possible, 30" min but a small pinched area won't be dismissed.
What I'm after is input to a long mainline, I can add industries and yards etc once I know where I'm going, these will be of proven design after prototype practices. (Copied from maps and selectively compressed also borrowed from other track plans).
FYI I am modelling CNW in the mid 70's in HO scale (N scale is not an option but thanks for the suggestions) It will be of a run down laid back type prairie setting, no city's or such, very rural. At the moment I am favouring the South Dakota area around Pierre (Alco country at the time) but not yet committed, also like FM country & Iron ore around Northern Michigan.
I intend to start with the L shaped area from the entrance to the toilet (9'10"wall & 23'6" wall) which will connect to the rest via a swinging bridge across the toilet entrance but I would like to plan it all now so the first bit will fit in. I can live with a nod under/swing bridge at the room's entrance, the windows (not shown) are of no concern.
I like the idea of a mushroom configuration but I can't see that I have the room to take advantage of this form of space saving (?) I am very willing to be convinced otherwise!
I WILL have broad curves (30 - 36" Min) with #8 turnouts on the main and #6 Turnouts elsewhere. Grades will be minimal <2.5%. I am favouring a "no lix" style (always have) but a helix in the garage is not out of the question, I cant see that I have enough room in the train room for one, I think it would take up too much valuable layout space but I wont completely dismiss the idea at this stage.
My original idea was to use the garage area (9'10" wall) for a through the wall staging area for at least at one end of the main line, I have an easy 2 feet to work with, more if necessary. I would prefer not to use the garage area as it is a quite a hostile environment compared to the train room. I am now favouring the area along the 22'4" wall either under or behind the main line for staging. This could be double ended and serve as east & west staging if a continuous loop is possible.
I have sketched some ideas down but would like to see other ideas so not to influence any designs, I will post my ideas for critique in due course.
The plan is as near to scale that it doesn't matter, each square represents two feet.
I know I have contradicted myself a couple of times here but it's about compromise and all suggestions will be considered.
Sorry, no input as such, other than I'm jealous. Sounds like a good space.
I'm more of an armchair collector at the moment, saving up track, loco's & rolling stock until the kids leave home. When they do go (oldest is 14 now, 15 soon), their room will be so full of model railroad they won't have a bed to come back to. LOL!
I have a pile of broken ceiling tiles available here at work if you would like some of them for rock formations?
It's comforting to see I'm not the only Kiwi on here.
Steve,
It seems like you already have a good concept for what you want. All I can tell you is what I would do with the same space.
That would give you at least 55-60 linear feet of layout per level. Quite enough to keep one occupied for a while.
Good Luck,-John
John has some good suggestions. If you don't need a workbench or sitting area in the room, you may be able to expand the space by re-hanging the entrance door to swing outward instead of inward like it is now. If it's an inside door, that's not a problem. I like a no lix myself. I would make the lower benchwork 24 inches wide and the upper level 12 to 18 inches wide. This is what our club has done and you aren't banging your head into the upper level when working on the lower level. You could also leave an isleway from the main entrance to the Loo. Then you could possibly choose a location along that walkway area for a lift-up or drop-down on the lower level. You could still stoop down some if there is an upper level there without being cramped up.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Hey...
My previous Bear Creek and South Jackson was in a L shaped room in my garage. The dimensions aren't entirely different than your room's dimensions.
http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/layoutdesign/bcsj2_design/index.html
Perhaps this might give you some ideas. The depth of the room at the entrance door is just (barely) sufficient to bring a peninsula out. The two sides of the peninsula will need to overlap each other a bit. Hold onto that no-lix thought.
A no-lix is incompatible with a continuous run unless there's a helix (or something else) to make ends meet (elevation-wise). Perhaps there's just room to put a helix to the immediate left of the entry door suprimposing on one of the turnback curves.
But that helix is going to be an issue if you use a 30" radius in it. If it has a real 2.5% grade it will seem to have a 3.5% grade because of all the curvature in it. Longer trains will seem to have a steeper grade, shorter ones will be closer to the 2.5% (this is due to extra friction from going around a curve).
You mentioned putting the helix in the garage. I think you will hate that because 1) you can't see your trains while they are spending multiple minutes traversing the helix, 2) it's in a nasty dusty, and unclimate controlled space, 3) putting holes in the walls for the trains to go through will also allow the garage environment into the train room.
I'd guesstimate about 110' of mainline per lap with a peninsula coming from the right wall. In a no-lix the track can't all be on a slope - sidings/towns should be flat to avoid run-aways. If you allow 50' of flat per lap that leaves about 60' of grade. At 2% thats about 15" of elevation change. At 2.5% that will be about 19" of elevation change. With narrow benchwork this is workable. Or you could use a concentric helix with an extra lap for gain another 4" of elevation.
I expect that on the peninsula where it runs left-right you'll be looking at extremely narrow benchwork - probably around 9" on each side.
It sounds like you've not yet addressed the question of what you're going to do with the layout. Is it a railfan layout to watch trains run? If so a simple around the walls design would be better than a peninsula one. Will you be looking to run trains casually (grab a train and drive it) or on purpose (simulate the operation of an actualy railroad)? Will you be running by your self or will (sometimes) you have some friends over to bring the railroad to life? If so how many friends are you likely to have?
Other questions: How many trains would you like to run? If you intend to run trains like a real railroad staging may be a good idea. Where will it go? How will it be accessible? How long do you want your trains to be (in cars and in feet)? If you go multi-deck how will you light the layout? Will you be wanting places to turn engines (turntable, wye, or reverse loop) or will you just run double-ended locos? Where can you fit a fat turntable or wye in the trackplan with narrow decks?
If you go for a multi-deck layout this will restrict your scenery. Valleys are fine on the lower deck, mountains are good on the upper, but a deep canyon on the upper will impinge on the lower and mountains on the lower will want to poke up through the upper.
If you go for a no-lix with a helix you'll be packing a lot of train in a small area. Design precision will make a difference. I don't know if you already have model rr cad but I'd recommend that your plans get entered into a cad program (fwiw I use 3rd Planit). The program will prevent you from making turnouts with #2 frogs, adding kinks, using substandard radii, and will provide precise numbers for grades and elevations. (apologies if I preaching to the choir here). You may not build it exactly the way you drew it but at least you'll be confident that what you intend will really fit.
Sorry, I guess I got kind of carried away with my typing...
Regards,
Charlie Comstock
Thanks guys, this is the sort of input I was after, above is what I had in mind when I first posted.
My thinking was the lower level could be a branch line connecting to the continuous loop upper level mainline that could have double ended staging representing all points east & west.
What I don't like about this plan is the branch is too short and curvy, I can go into the train room and visualize this plan and I'm comfortable with it, but it is far from perfect as a base main line run at this stage and after reading and considering the above posts and trying to look at it from different angles I have come up with several variations, nothing set in stone but all leaving me several decisions to make,. Like a small modification would leave a direct uninterrupted access to the toilet (thanks for the suggestion John) from the entrance and avoid any duck unders or swinging bridges, although I still would need some sort of access to the layout the toilet access would be fine. This is where the easy access vs. wide sweeping curves decision comes in.
This was an idea I came up with which gives a longer "branch line" run and still keeping the continuous loop idea going, the point where "A" meets "A" could be flipped over to follow the branch curve but on a higher level, I was just experimenting and still have decisions to make.
I have been toying with John's suggestions for the turn back curves and although so far they look promising they also cramp the available space so more decisions for me to make.
I have looked at the re-hanging of the door thanks to Elmer's suggestion, re-hanging would interfere with the access from the garage to the stairwell which I would be able to live with but for the amount of space saved in this instance I don't see it as being worth while, but I will bear it in mind for consideration as the planning takes shape.
Charlie; You have convinced me about using the garage, your right I would hate it. At this stage my plans for the scenery is very un-dramatic, mainly flat prairie land, no canyons or cliffs as such so I am comfortable with as narrow benchwork as I can get away with.
I thought I was a rail fan but after reading Joe Fugate's post recently I discovered I was an engineer so yes it will be an operating layout, the trains will earn their keep and it will be designed for multi operator operation but most likely I will be the only operator most of the time.
I have no plans for a turntable or a wye but depending on the final plan I may be able to slip a return loop in somewhere, I am running diesels mostly in consist so loco direction isn't a huge concern. I am hoping for a train length of 12 - 14 feet, this includes locos & caboose.
I will have a look at 3rd Planit when I get some time, at this stage I am quite comfortable sketching out a plan then going into the room and visualizing with the help of a tape measure and a yard stick to help see the how my minimum radius fits.
Thanks for your ideas so far, I am still trying different ideas as they come to me (with your help) I still haven't ruled out just going around the walls a couple of times as a no-lix, I feel that I will know when I come up with the ‘right' plan then it will be time to add the details and benchwork to the plan (and hope it still works).
Hey Munster, I'm waiting for the 21 year old to move out so the 15 year old can move to his room and I can use her room to store the ‘stuff' that's taking up valuable room in the train room at the moment! I have been a ‘collector' for some time also but the time to put it all together is getting closer. I think you will find a few Kiwis pop up here from time to time, cheers.
Don't forget to allow for sufficient aisleways. You will quickly grow to hate your layout if your passageways are cramped. Go stand in various doorways and visualize those widths as being your aisle. If your elbows touch the door jambs (2'-0" doorway) or two people could not get past each other (2'-6" doorway) then you will know how to layout your aisles.
-John
I'd agree that ailse-way width is important. But since you'll be operating with a skeleton (mostly yourself) you won't need huge aisles. Try to keep to 36" where possible but having some pinch points will be fine. If you're pinching an aisle down to 'single-person' width (no passing) then you can get down to around 19" or so and still be fairly comfortable IF 1) you only do this for a short distance, and 2) there are wider spaces on both sides of the pinch point.
Regarding your second plan (with the longer branchline), were you planning on following a train around the mainline on the upper deck? If so how high will the branchline be where it comes off the peninsula and hits the wall (under where 'A' is)? Will a duck under there be ok with you at that elevation? Or will you need to back track all the way around the layout aisles to get to a place where you can resume visual contact with your mainline (upper deck) train? Or are you planning on a pancake flat layout where you can look over the top of the peninsual to see you train on the 'other side'?
If you're planning on 'flat' terrain, will you be ok with a branchline that will lose close to 200' of elevation (scale feet)? If that's ok then perhaps some rolling hills on the upper deck would be ok?
If you keep the 2nd plan basic foot print what does it take to turn the whole thing into a no-lix with a end-to-end connecting helix at the end of the peninsula? And how many feet of track do you get in an orbit of the room and peninsula?
Have you started thinking about scenic and operational features? Where will these go and how much space will they require?
Looking good!
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote:A no-lix is a term given to a layout that climbs from one level to the next by going around the walls increasingly up grade until you are above the level you started. It only works in very large spaces.
With a steady 2.5 -3.0% constant grade on the branch (until reaching its terminus), there is sufficient branchline track length for a nolix giving 16-inch track separation between lower and upper decks at the branchline terminus. By the time the branchline reaches the SE corner, there will be sufficient vertical separation from the mainline (about 4 inches) for the branchline to enter a tunnel. (If you extend the visible portion of the branchline along the next wall, there will too much separation to maintain the image of flatland scenery. However, the necessity of having steep grades on the branchline is contrary to the flatland concept.) The branch could then reappear somewhere on the lobe where there would be sufficient vertical separation to make visibility worthwhile. Only the lobe and branchline terminus areas would require a double- deck framework. At least half of the branchline wouldn't be visible, but that's the price you probably have to pay. If modeling a more vertical landscape, most of the branch could be kept visible.
The continous mainline with a point-to-point branchline, as you propose, is my favorite track schematic. Good luck!
Mark
Thanks for all the input, I will make sure there is plenty of isle width, this is obviously advise from learning the hard way so I will take note.
Moving the door makes a lot of sense but is a more work than I am willing to undertake.
Yes Charlie I do plan on following the train around, its one of the issues I have with this plan and what I was trying to achieve having ‘A' from the branch line turn clockwise but as you can see it would take up far too much room, I was looking at the same sort of thing you have done with your Bear Creek & South Jackson (above) where the lines overlap and join the main by the 9'8" wall, unfortunately this interferes with the room entrance.
There is room for a helix at the end of the peninsular, I actually miss-drew the radius on that plan at 43" instead of 36" so there would be approx 36" of isle all around it. A 40" helix would fit. I have been giving this some thought and the idea is growing on me, I've visualized it in the room and it feels good. My thoughts are to use it to drop the branchline down and have the branch and the main on separate levels.
An orbit of the room would give me approx 74' of mainline, the branch as drawn is about 110'.
Come to think of it, in the mid-1960's I built a no-lix on a 5x10-foot, donut-shaped layout in HO scale. The upper deck covered about half of the lower deck. That plan worked out fine.
I've drawn up that plan, the aisle ways are less than three feet from track to track so will be even less with benchwork and wont leave sufficient room for towns & customer yards on the main.
I'll keep throwing ideas at it until I come up with something I'm happy with.