The Old Dog's Model RR Industry Selection Manifesto - Comments wanted

[exPalaceDog]

... In fact, in the steam era, nearly every industry would have gotten coal...even many that didn't ship anything by rail. 

Excellent comment! Something of OLd Dog planned to mention, but the post was just getting too long.

I like this tannery idea.  Picking a regional industry is a great idea.  Sometimes you can be surprised by what a search through old records turns up.

For many interesting OLD books on railroading, engineering, and other industries FREE for the downloading, see;

http://books.google.com/bkshp?hl=en&tab=wp

Have fun

 

[Autobus Prime]

In addition to raw hides, a tannery would use salt, bate, tannin (say hemlock or oak bark), and probably some items the Old Dog has overlooked.

xPD:

Bulk chemicals and coal.  In fact, in the steam era, nearly every industry would have gotten coal...even many that didn't ship anything by rail.  It took me a while to realize this, until I started reading the RPI site's industrial sections and started noticing records of industries that shipped 1 carload (scrap,I bet) but received 350 carloads of coal in a year.

I like this tannery idea.  Picking a regional industry is a great idea.  Sometimes you can be surprised by what a search through old records turns up.

[exPalaceDog]

Well, we now know the Ole Dog's list of givens and druthers for either a freelance layout or a really compressed adaptation of Brooklyn (the Borough, not just the Navy Yard.)  Or, if building in Z scale in a surplus B52 hangar, maybe not so compressed.  Since the list is very obviously HIS, I'm not going to take any potshots at any part of it.

Actually the Old Dog is thinking more in terms of a "book case" type set up.

Maybe something like this

Have fun

 

 

 

[exPalaceDog]

  Edit: moving this section to the top, since it is really the core question: 

 Seems like you have not quite made up your mind as to whether you are trying to summarize what you think are some good general rules of thumb in selecting industries for a freelanced layout, or whether you just want to proclaim to the world how your own preferences run.

 Which is it ?

Both, my intend was to provide some general concepts then apply them to my unique situation.

 

 No idea what you are trying to communicate with these two points:

• d. Industries that do NOT conduct their own switching can NOT be modeled by providing a track leading to a hidden staging yard
• e. Industries that do conduct their own switching can NOT be modeled by providing a interchange track or yard

That one should proof read their work, the second NOTin each sentence was a topo!

 

 Not sure if you mentioned having multiple car spots for different types of cars at the same industry - so some loads can only be delivered to door 2, while others can only be delivered to door 

Excellent point!

 

 Hope you don't feel I have savaged your post too badly. You asked for comments - I have tried to make reasonably (I feel) constructive comments.

I asked for it! Thanks.

[dehusman]

For wharves/floats you have to serve a navigable waterway.  When you start looking at it, that's a very, very, very limited part of the country.

Billboard reefers are also a very limited in that they are only applicable before the mid 1930's, which modeled by a relatively small number of modelers.

While an interchange is very, very useful addition to any layout, I would suggest thinking of it more as a type of "staging yard" rather than an industry.  Slightly different concept, gives you a wider variety of options.

What wasn't mentioned is the role that industry selection in defining the "mood" of your layout.  Selecting representative industries of your area provides an immediate tie in to the locale.  A lot of people like many small industries and a many people seem to like one big industry with many spots.  The net is really a wash, either way you can have the same number of spots.

Dave H.

[exPalaceDog]

A busy siding on my layout will feature two tanneries -- an interesting industry because they tended to get their loads in boxcars of a full generation older than the rest of the layout.  In the late 1960s they got hides in wood outside braced boxcars.

Just a quick throught, while a tannery would not fit in to my concept, they are interesting industries to consider. In looking over old maps of NW PA, it appears that almost every town at least one.

In addition to raw hides, a tannery would use salt, bate, tannin (say hemlock or oak bark), and probably some items the Old Dog has overlooked.

Have fun

 

[dknelson]

A busy siding on my layout will feature two tanneries -- an interesting industry because they tended to get their loads in boxcars of a full generation older than the rest of the layout.  In the late 1960s they got hides in wood outside braced boxcars.

Another industry made (and still makes) plastic bags.  This is a good destination for ACF center flo covered hoppers.  The unloading area (steel boxes with hose connections, protected from errant drivers by large steel tubes painted yellow filled with concrete buried in the ground) was across the street from the industry itself.  I may not model the building - have not decided yet.

Dave Nelson

[wmshay06]

Old Dog.....interesting points, some of which have been put forth over the years regarding team tracks, loading facilities only for larger 'off-layout' industries, and so forth.  But...if it is the modeler's goal to model a prototype - that includes operations and industry selection.  Some liberties might be in order of course to provide enough traffic for an ops session and such, or to fill that 'gotta have' urge.

For example, I model a branch of the C&O in a modest space (the actual length of the modeled portion is roughly 1/3 of the prototype) which was known to have 3 coal mine tipples, a team track and one or more spurs serving unknown purposes.  All 3 tipples are modeled, the team track and one additional spur included.  To fill that one spur an industry from elsewhere was 'transported' to provide a reason for the known variety on the branch.  Does this provide enough traffic and fun - you bet.  All known trains on the line are modeled (2 coal mine runs, 2 mixed frieght locals), plus a few trains are modeled on the mainline from staging to provide more variety in car mix.

Whats to be learned from this?  The prototype we are trying to model generally has more than enough variety to satisfy - including operations, car mix and industry selection.

Just some random comments..

 Charles 

[tomikawaTT]

Well, we now know the Ole Dog's list of givens and druthers for either a freelance layout or a really compressed adaptation of Brooklyn (the Borough, not just the Navy Yard.)  Or, if building in Z scale in a surplus B52 hangar, maybe not so compressed.  Since the list is very obviously HIS, I'm not going to take any potshots at any part of it.

MY givens and druthers, as can be expected, are very different:

• Model the most interesting part of a secondary main line that goes from somewhere to somewhere else:
• Almost anything will be able to pass through, but only cars which can logically be routed to the modeled loci will be switched out and spotted there.
• Cars will be those seen (numbers and other data recorded) by the modeler.  That means that most freight equipment will be basic black with white reporting marks.
• Rail service will extend to facilities which had such service in the prototype places I am (approximately) modeling:
• 1.)  Freight houses/team tracks.
• 2.)  The sawmill and log yard at Tomikawa.
• 3.)  Interchange tracks with the same-gauge Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo at Tomikawa.
• 4.)  Transloads for the (narrow gauge) Kashimoto Rintetsu at Tomikawa and the Harukawa Dentetsu at Haruyama.
• The Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo exists to serve two coal mines, and carries a small amount of mixed freight to the freight houses at the mining communities and one small railroad town.
• The bigger coal mine originates loaded unit trains, which are interchanged at Tomikawa, vanish into the netherworld and are never seen again.  Empty unit trains with identical-to-the-car-number consists roll into Tomikawa, are interchanged with the TTT and make their way back to the mine...
• There is also provision to live load open top cars for loose-car coal traffic.  They get emptied in staging.
• I am much more interested in capturing the traffic intensity of the prototype than I am in creating museum-quality structures or rolling stock.

My choice of prototype country (Japan), choice of prototype location (Upper Kiso Valley) and all other choices stemming therefrom are personal - not open to discussion and not subject to change except by the modeler.  If this be Chuck's manifesto, so be it.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Anonymous]

A town has basic industries like a team track.

It also may or may not support a nearby large industry.

I have built one industry made up of 4 different buildings and one crane track. It requires daily service to function.

The town has other industries and they vary according to what the modeler prefers.

My cold storage is about 2 feet long and two stories. More than enough to take 4 reefers at a time.

I use trucking to develop a way to carry the small stuff around town or in a industry. For example. That coil unloaded by the teamtrack needs to go to the coil shop to be stamped out into a part at the large industry. The coil shop has it's own internal crane.

If I wanted to build a big coil shop with a door to actually drive a rail car into to be unloaded... well that is always a possibility when additional space opens in the future.

[steinjr]

  Edit: moving this section to the top, since it is really the core question: 

 Seems like you have not quite made up your mind as to whether you are trying to summarize what you think are some good general rules of thumb in selecting industries for a freelanced layout, or whether you just want to proclaim to the world how your own preferences run.

 Which is it ?

 The rest of my comments is from the viewpoint of evaluating what you wrote as general ideas to help select industries for a freelanced layout.

 Goals: selecting industries that take a variety of different loads is indeed a good general rule of the thumb for a model railroad. Another design goal should be to pick industries that normally would a reasonably high turnover of cars, ie be switched fairly often.

 So good general traffic sources and destinations are indeed:

• Interchanges of various kinds (both on layout and off layout interchange tracks, and including both car floats and industry sidings where cars are left for unmodelled/off layout plant/industry switchers)
  
• Transload facilities of various kinds (including team tracks and harbor piers)

 Maximizing the use of closed type of cars (boxcars, tank cars, closed hoppers) is also a good general rule of the thumb.  Using closed cars clearly makes it easier to model loaded cars arriving, empty cars departing (or the other way around).

 Even though there are several cool ways of dealing with on-layout open load handling: operating chutes for bulk loads like sand/coal, empties in/loads out paired industries back to back or two sets of cars - one set loaded, one empty - in hidden staging at industry, or devices like Dallas Model Works industrial flat car loader (a small shovel inside a building, pushing a load from a platform onto a flatcar or off a flatcar) or the huge Heljan operating container crane.

 General notes: Industries should indeed appear to be big enough to need rail traffic. But not the entire all of the industry needs to be modelled on the layout. Fair enuff.

 No idea what you are trying to communicate with these two points:

• d. Industries that do NOT conduct their own switching can NOT be modeled by providing a track leading to a hidden staging yard
• e. Industries that do conduct their own switching can NOT be modeled by providing a interchange track or yard

 For one thing, this seems to contrast with 6a - where you do advocate modelling a large industry like a steel plant precisely with a lead track or exchange track/yard.

 And secondly, obviously a big off layout industry taking diverse loads can be modelled as just an industry lead or small exchange yard.

 Some people have cleverly used such tracks to simulate deliveries to industries far too big to actually model. See e.g. the article "Large Industries in small spaces" by Paul Dolkos in Model Railroad Planning 2003. You can posit that the industry has its own local switcher, and that you are just setting out cars for the industry - perhaps even after resorting the cars according to what order the industry want the cars in.

 For time period, I would have said that layouts set in the 1960s or earlier will general give you room for more cars in a given amount of layout space - since you then would be using more 40' (or smaller) RR cars , instead of mostly bigger RR cars.

 You correctly point out that inner city style railroading (with tall buildings, tucked closely together) will in general probably generate more car movements than modern suburban style industrial parks or (even more clearly) rural areas.

 You correctly point out that RR engine terminal facilities (if you have one) can itself be a general source and destination for many kinds of cars - just add a short "service track" which will function more or less like a team track for the RRs own purpose (for delivering coal, sand, diesel and spare parts for the repair shops, or hauling out ash or even wrecked RR cars or engines on flatcars).Edit: although an engine facility is not generally a high-turnover traffic source or destination. Not much point in adding one just as a traffic source or destination.

 Also, a RIP (Repair In Place) track is a good general industry - any kind of car can develop mechanical problems in transit. An error can easily be modelled by drawing cards (or throwing a die) for each car before a train departs from a yard or when a train, necessiating the switching out of bad-ordered cars.

 Not sure if you mentioned having multiple car spots for different types of cars at the same industry - so some loads can only be delivered to door 2, while others can only be delivered to door 1. E.g. Linda Sand has written quite a few good articles on industrial switching, e.g:

1. Model Railroad Planning 1998: Linda Sand "Industrial Switching in N and H0"
2. Model Railroad Planning 1999: Linda Sand "Big-city Railroads don't require big spaces"
3. Model Railroad Planning 1999: Linda Sand "Big Industries in small places"

 Especially the third one is applicable to the concept of having several tracks and many different car spots in a industries that can be modelled fairly small tucked into corners - like a lumber processing plant, a food plant etc.

 And of course - all these general rules of the thumb go out the window if you want to model a prototypical industry that does not fit this mold. As someone whose name I don't recall once wrote: a made up place has to be credible. A real place just has to exist

 There probably is more that could be commented on, but this should do for a start, shouldn't it ?

 Hope you don't feel I have savaged your post too badly. You asked for comments - I have tried to make reasonably (I feel) constructive comments.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[exPalaceDog]

Below are some of the Old Hound's ideas on selecting the "best" industries to use as shippers and consignees on a model railroad. Some will no doubt disagree with some of what the Old Hound says. Think of this as running some ideas up the flag pole to see how much "buck shot" they collect.

 

Goals

• 01) The "best" industries should receive and ship a wide variety of loads in a wide variety of car types
• 02) However, closed cars are somewhat easier to handle since they look the same whether laoded or unloaded. Open top cars may require the use of two model cars to represent one car, one loaded and one unloaded. Removable loads can be used, but they can become a "hassle" in some cases.
• 03) This is a personal preference, but the Old Dog has always liked "billboard" reefers and other similar cars.

General notes

• 01) The Old Dog would suggest that if an industry is modeled, it should appear to be large enough to justify rail service. Nothing looks more ridiculous then a boxcar parked beside an industry that is smaller then the boxcar.
• 02) Note that an industry that does NOT actually need to be modeled to be a shipper or consignee on a model railroad.
• a. Industries without their own spur can be served be team tracks
• b. Industries can be partially modeled, say by using "flats"
• c. Industries can be partially modeled by modeling only the loading and/or unloading facilities.
• d. Industries that do NOT conduct their own switching can be modeled by providing a track leading to a hidden staging yard
• e. Industries that do conduct their own switching can be modeled by providing a interchange track or yard
• f. Loading/Unloading facilities often located away a building, reached by tunnels
• 03) It is suggested that industries have widely defined functions. Modeling a builder's supply company can provide more interest then modeling just a lumber yard. Also note that independent wholesales are more flexible then distributors. In addition, contract manufactures can provide items for numerous different brands.
• 04) Also note that railroad facilities can be considered industries. Coaling towers need coal. Sand towers need sand and coal (for drying the sand). Water towers need coal (for pumping the water) and boiler compound. Note that almost any railroad building will need coal for heating.
• 05) As to era, the Old Mutt would suggest the early 1900's as a "good" choice, but this is clearly a matter of personal preference.
• 06) As to area, the Old Flea Bag would suggest a light manufacturing, warehousing, and wholesaling area of a large seaport using mid-rise mostly brick buildings, say five or six stories. This should allow the most industries to be provided.
• a. Heavy industries such as steel mills, paper mills, oil refiners, and so on should be avoided. If needed, just model the interchange yard or access track. Such industries simply consume too much space unless they are theme of the whole layout.
• i. Note - one industry that is seldom mentioned that might be interesting is a ship yard or navy yard. Ship sub-assembles could generate numerous interesting loads such as boilers, turbines, and marine steam engines. The navy yard would also receive shipments of heavy ordnance.
• b. Modern type industrial parks with single story structures consume too much space.
• c. The mid-rise mostly multistory brick buildings also allow for multiple shippers to share different parts of the building, say different parts of different floors.

Best Industries for a Model Railroad

• 01) An interchange with another railroad. This is an "industry" that can use any type of car.
• 02) A RR car float/barge/ferry landing would be possible variation.

• a. Extra switching is required to keep car floats balanced
• b. Allow interchange with multiple RR's, NOT just one
• c. When paired, they might allow some bridge traffic in the right circumstances
• d. The Brooklyn Navy Yard received ship building supplies and coal via car float. That must have created some interesting loads.
• e. Three of the float barges once owned by BEDT, were the "Loading" or "Station" type. A "Loading" or "Station" type car float is a car float with a platform which ran down the center of the float barge. This station platform enabled companies to load or unload freight while the freight car still on the float barge.

• 03) A "team" track. This would allow off customers without their own private spur to load and/or unload their shipments. An example might be a local automobile dealership. It would be unusual for such a industry to have their own spur, be they could unload their new vehicles at the team local track. Such tracks can receive shipments for numerous shippers in several types of RR cars. Such tracks may often include a end loading platform, side loading platforms, pits for material transfer conveyors, and be served by small cranes.
• 04) An open deck wharf where cargo could be transferred to barges, lighters, and small ships might be the marine equivalent of the team track.
• 05) A freight terminal.

• a. Such terminals are often designed to load and/or unload RR cars on several parallel tracks at same time from one platform saving space.
• b. Defining the terminal as a "consolidated", "union" or being owned by a freight forwarder would allow the use of RR boxcars from multiple railroads
• c. At least in later periods, refrigerated freight might also be handed requiring RR reefers.
• d. The facility might also provide storage and transfer services.

• 06) A general "break bulk" freight wharf for loading and unloading freighters. Such wharves usually had a warehouse built on top with a pair of tracks running down the center.

• a. Again, cold storage might be provided requiring RR reefers
• b. Running an additional track along the edge would allow for other types of RR cars

• 07) A wharf for passenger liners could enlarge the car mix.

• a. Such a facility could also handle private RR cars for wealthy passengers
• b. There would be baggage cars for bagged mail and express shipments. Maybe even some express boxcars
• c. Then there would be RR boxcars for priority freight
• d. Then there is the matter of supplying the ship. That would require RR reefers for meat, product, malt beverages, butter, cheese, and so on.
• e. Note the coal would probably be loaded at a separate bunkering wharf. That might be an interesting industry in itself.

• 08) A fruit and produce market (Open to Wholesalers Only)

• a. Market requires platforms between pairs of track to handle cars on multiple tracks
• b. Independent Wholesalers rent floor space in a common market building
• c. Can receive stock in "billboard" RR reefers and RR reefers (mainly western roads)
• d. Could receive stock ventilated box cars and insulated box cars
• e. Tomatoes are sometimes handled in stock cars to avoid crushing
• f. Possible fruits handled; Apples, Pears, Apricots, Cherries, Plums and prunes, Peaches, Blackberries, Raspberries, Blueberries, Squash, Pumpkins, Watermelons, Strawberries, Grapes and raisins, Olives, Grapefruit, Lemons, Limes, Oranges, Bananas, and Pineapples
• g. Possible vegetables handled; Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Lettuce, * Spinach, Peppers, Cucumbers, Pumpkins, Tomatoes, Black-eyed peas, Lima beans, Peas, Asparagus, Celery, Garlic, Onions, Radishes, Turnips, and Yams
• h. Major Produce Reefer owners; American Refrigerator Transit Company (Missouri Pacific and Wabash railroads), Fruit Growers Express (Armour), Burlington Refrigerator Express (joint venture - CB&Q and the Fruit Growers Express Company), General American Transportation Corporation (General American Car Company), Merchants Despatch (New York Central)(NYC), North Western Refrigerator Line (closely-allied with the Chicago and North Western Railway), Pacific Fruit Express (joint venture - Union Pacific and Southern Pacific), and Santa Fe Refrigerator Despatch (Santa Fe Railway)

• 09) A meat house row.

• a. Independent wholesalers and Meat Packing Companies rent separate bays in building/s
• b. Independent wholesalers can use meat billboard reefers from numerous packers
• c. Maybe One Building for Beef and a separate building for Pork
• d. Meats handled; Cattle (Beef and Veal), Lamb and Sheep (Mutton), Swine (Pork)
• e. Major Meat Reefer Owners; Armour Refrigerator Line and Swift Refrigerator Line

• 10) Independent beer wholesaler

• a. Beer Wholesaler can use Billboard Beer Reefers from several Breweries, NOT just one
• b. Major Beer reefer owners; St. Louis Refrigerator Car Company (Anheuser-Busch) and Union Refrigerator Transit Line (Joseph Schlitz Brewing Company)
• c. A brewery might be a second choice, but that would limit one to only one brand
• d. However, One BEDT car float was configured as a "Center Pipe" affair. This allowed products (yeast, barley, hops) to be unloaded while still on the car float.

• 11) Dairy Products Supply Company and Creamery

• a. Independent Wholesaler can receive billboard milk reefers from several companies
• b. Butter and Cheese might be shipped out in special RR cars such as the Erie had

• 12) Wholesale Dressed Poultry & Egg Company
• 13) Grocery Wholesale Company, Coffee, and Tea Wholesale Company, Wholesale Candy, Chocolate, and Cocoa Company, Cigarette and Cigar Wholesale Company, and Condensed Soup Cannery

• a. These might be interesting as potential users of billboard boxcars

• 14) Fresh Water Fish Market

• a. This could be interesting for receiving fish in express reefers
• b. Fish handled might be; Bass, Perch, Pike, and Trout
• c. Major express companies; Adams Express Company, Southern Express Company, American Express Company, and the Wells Fargo and Company