Is it ok to use real sand?

[Otis]

Back to sand: I know that people are often looking for handy sources of this stuff from landscapers and masoners supplies.  I just found a new source.

My son works in a roofing shop while making money for college.  He brought me several small bags of finely crushed rock/sand in HO dimensions. It is used by roofing companies in their torch-on work on flat roofs.  The stuff is sprinkled on tarry margins where the roll of roofing does not extend properly.

It looked like it just came out of a hobby store.  There is a HO sized grey blend that looks like ballast, a reddish brick one, and a charcoal-coloured one flecked with the brick red.

It has some iron particles in it, but sure looks clean and sterile.  It is dustless. 

I like that it is anglar and not rounded looking like most other scenics rock material. 

I am going to use some as is, in spots far from the tracks for now.  It looks like running a magnet through it would make it perfect for many uses.

I know the roofing shops get this stuff in very large bucketfuls.  I don't know what they might charge.  Like other true rock stuff on your layout, it would be heavy in large quantities.

[bogp40]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

Excited all the water molecules in the cat, not a good thing...

[twhite]

Whoa, which is probably why my Maine Coon walks really GENTLY when she perches on my microwave, LOL. 

I've used sand on my layout, but never near the tracks and only after sifting and de-magnitizing and--yes, microwaving--it.  The sand I get is from the Sierra, and is full of iron oxide and interesting little bits of Pyrite, and I only use it for lining creeks, rivers and lake-shores.  But it does have a very unique look to it, and I haven't found any other modeling substitute for it.  But the stuff we have out here in our rivers would be absolutely DEADLY to motors if used around trackage, at least IMO.   

Tom

[train lover12]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

The cat, being somewhere in the neighborhood of 97-98% water, creates a major hot spot.

Rotor

 

But I would not recommend trying to sterilize a freeze-dried cat using a microwave because the fleas often survive unless you first re-hydrate!

Don't ants contain water? 

About the same as a roach, which will sit back and sunbathe in a microwave.

actually every living thing is mostly made of water no matter what it is which is why animals explode.

[train18393]

RE: Conventional home oven vs. microwave oven.

For my modeling purposes it is usually easier just to dump the sand on a cookie pan and bake it in a conventional oven. The microwave does have "hot spots" , and if the sand is dry there will be no water for the magnetic field in the micro-wave to jiggle, and the inter-mollicular friction in those excited molicules are what causes the heat. You see the non ionizing radiation generated in the magnatron has a voltage, current and magnetic axis to the wave commenly refered to the X,Y and Z(magnetic) axis... Now most of us do not have a degree or understand the mechanics behind the heating caused by non-ionizing radiation in and around the 2.65 ghz range, which is close to where the microwave oven in your home operates(and some radars.) If you read several  papers published in the various journals you may grasp how the magnetic field causes the heating effect. I am assuming we are an intelligent group of model railroaders  on this forum so we can dispense with that formality. What it boils down to  (no pun intended), is it is easiest to use a conventional oven when trying to kill the critters that may be in sand harvested locally. When trying to kill a cat, I would guess the microwave may be more efficient. Without emperical data I can't say for sure about the cat. 45 years experience with a conventional home oven to dry materials for the layout is my preferred method. I found the microwave to be a pain in the neck for that purpose, and believe me I experimented with it; drying materials that is, not the cat thing.  

Most importantly, and the real reason I am replying is this. You may consider washing the sand if there is any chanch of salt or other corrosives being present in the raw material. Conventional ovens will also do a fine job of drying the sand after washing it. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Paul

 

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

The cat, being somewhere in the neighborhood of 97-98% water, creates a major hot spot.

Rotor

 

But I would not recommend trying to sterilize a freeze-dried cat using a microwave because the fleas often survive unless you first re-hydrate!

Don't ants contain water? 

About the same as a roach, which will sit back and sunbathe in a microwave.

[HarryHotspur]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

The cat, being somewhere in the neighborhood of 97-98% water, creates a major hot spot.

Rotor

 

But I would not recommend trying to sterilize a freeze-dried cat using a microwave because the fleas often survive unless you first re-hydrate!

Don't ants contain water? 

[cregil]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

The cat, being somewhere in the neighborhood of 97-98% water, creates a major hot spot.

Rotor

 

But I would not recommend trying to sterilize a freeze-dried cat using a microwave because the fleas often survive unless you first re-hydrate!

[Rotorranch]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

The cat, being somewhere in the neighborhood of 97-98% water, creates a major hot spot.

Rotor

[NevinW]

I've used various mine talings over the years as ground cover and it has worked great and looked very realistic.  I get the talings from Virginia City or some other mine.  I have never baked or treated the talings. 

[HarryHotspur]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

So why did the microwave kill my cat? 

[cregil]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

For a microwave oven to heat all material placed in it requires something to transfer the thermal heat from the hot spots created by the electromagnetic radiation.  Moisture in foods (water, oils, fats) is what transfers that thermal heat to the areas in the oven that are not "hot."  In a conventional oven, the air transfers the heat (the air in a microwave oven is not hot).  

How about this:  Notice the difference between splattered food in a conventional oven and in an uncleaned microwave oven.  You clean a conventional oven to remove the charcoal and ash.  You clean a microwave oven to remove the molds growing on the uncooked foods clinging to the liner. 

Conventional ovens are sterile.  Microwave ovens are not.  Therefore, you can not kill microorganisms in a microwave without a material to absorb and then transfer the heat and you cannot kill an ant in one unless you hold it still in one of the hot spots inside the oven. 

From the article I read from the link supplied, above, by steinjr, I gather that dry items can be sterilized when subjected to microwaves for very long periods of times-- equivalent to the time in a conventional oven, but my own microwave is never on for more than ten minutes, and it is never used for relatively dry items. 

Crews

[Otis]

Well, if anyone is interested in a followup:

The sand that I have is actually the finest grade of silica used for sandblasting.  The grit is #70 so it is very fine and prototypical.  However, I just could not bring myself to use something so fine, even though it seemed to stick well on undiluted white glue.  And when I added a sealer, the pale yellow colour disappeared an it looked just like the particle board  surface of the layout anyway. 

Instead I went with this product:

 

When test smeared with a putty knife the grains seemed too large; but when smoothed over with the little black spreader, the surface smoothes out very nicely.  This is the effect I wanted, like a smooth sandy surface. 

I adheres very well.  I had prepainted the board with sandstone-tinted gritty undercoat designed for the product, but i don't think I need have bothered.  The product is on there very securely as far as I can tell.  I may add a coat of matte to take off some lustre, but it is not too bad as is, and I am planning to add a bit of WS bunch grass all over.

 

 

But another nice feature is that this stuff is sculptable, and works well when piled up and worked into ridges that can be left rough or smoothed as one wishes.  It also works well to fill in gaps.

Once I fugure out where I want some trackside structures, utility poles and fencing I am going to go around with a second coat adding hills, rises and ridges.

I have just done test boards in these techniques, but next I am going to apply this stuff at the base of the buttes and strata structures I have created out of 1/8", 1/4" and 3/4" particle board (Medite). 

I need to add the surface coat of the silica sand to this butte and some strata structures I have created though.  They will be be far enough back from any trackwork and I will seal the sand afterward.

I think I will paint on some white glue and the silica sand to create a lighter sandy texture to the butte to distinguish it from the Beautitone sandy flatland around it.  Or I may go another route and create a greyish, purple-ish colour to make it receded more into the bacground.  The strata structures are going around the perimeter so as to appear in the distance....otherwise I think the scale is too far off.

I need the sand to create some slope to the shoulders as well.  I tried some clear caulk, but I think it shrank too much.  I have to rasp off the sharp strata edges too.

Maybe in the next week or so I will post some more pictures if it all works out.  Or maybe if it doesn't.  We learn most from our mistakes, perhaps.

 

[steinjr]

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=204070

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I use the beige sand-art sand from Wal-Mart. It costs between 2 two and three bucks a bottle. Two of the bottles will almost fill a regular size Pringles can.

[dknelson]

For example, ants walking around in a microwave are not bothered, but ants in moist sand would be thoroughly cooked.  Crews

Hmmm.  Somehow I cannot imagine my wife permitting me to try out this particular experiment. 

Lorell Joiner the late great O scale modeler used sand on his layout -- of course he was working in O so the size problem was less pronounced.  His statement was that the sand had to be thoroughly cemented in place because you have to keep it out of mechanisms and other moving parts.  Obviously using sand to model sand makes little sense but it is the right size for smallish rocks and pebbles.

Dave Nelson

[train lover12]

Real sand and real dirt sifted and then baked in an oven to sterilize. 

A microwave may not work unless there is sufficient moisture.  For example, ants walking around in a microwave are not bothered, but ants in moist sand would be thoroughly cooked.  I would assume that mold spores, fleas and microbes that originated inside of an animals digestive system would also be unaffected by a microwave.  I really don’t want any of those on my layout.

Crews

 

actually the heat isnt wat kills em its the microwave RADIATION that destroys the cells so unless the organisms are shielded with something strong (like metal) they die.  much more efficient then an oven

[jeffers_mz]

I tried commercial playground/craft sand a couple places, but wasn't happy with the result. It was just too fine and uniform to look natural. Perhaps it will work in a setting where you expect to see uniform crushed, milled, selected size aggregate, like a quarry, but it really doesn't even look right as driveway rock.

I dug up about a quart of sand and concrete chips from a soft spot on my dad's concrete driveway, and use that all the time. I "sift" it with my fingertips during application. I'll paint an area with buck a bottle Walmart acrylics, usually half paint, half water, then sprinkle the sand as desired. Follow that with a pass with the dustbuster to pull loose grains. A one inch dry paint brush will loosen weakly adhered grains before the dustbuster pass.

The driveway spall looks much more realistic, because it's all different sizes, like what you find laying around unimproved areas. The commercial sand now only gets used when I need to flesh out the driveway spall over a wide area. I spread the whole container's worth out on cookie sheets and baked it at 350 for 15-20 minutes, no problems at all with unwanted lifeforms on the layout.

[bearman]

An oven it is then.  The point being, that the sand should be sterilized before it is applied to the layout.

[cregil]

Real sand and real dirt sifted and then baked in an oven to sterilize. 

A microwave may not work unless there is sufficient moisture.  For example, ants walking around in a microwave are not bothered, but ants in moist sand would be thoroughly cooked.  I would assume that mold spores, fleas and microbes that originated inside of an animals digestive system would also be unaffected by a microwave.  I really don’t want any of those on my layout.

Crews

 

[Medina1128]

I found a good source of sand in those tubes that Wally World sells for those of us that live in cold climates. A couple of seasons and that burlap tube starts to rip and tear. I pour out the sand into an old kitty litter bucket. For finer sand, look in the crafts sectioat Wally World.

[FriendlyEspee]

I use sifted decomposed granite quite a bit, and like it a lot. It can be warmer in color than sand, but I often use it as a first scenery material, then add ground foam over.

I believe David Barrow uses sifted masonry sand for ballast and some ground cover.

[quietman41]

My only comment about sand is be careful if you get your own.  I am modeling in Michigan and obtained a larger bucket fro the lake Michigan shore line.  Now this bucket sat in the basement for sometime covered.  It was installed for a lake bottom and beach area.  I went down the basement a few days later to see it moving.  It seems the sand fleas lived in the closed container and now became alive in the fresh air.  i ended up fumgating the house and removing the sand.  I understand that you have to bake it to remove this problem, but i have never tried it.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Remember also that when the sand is glued down it will transmit noise, thus making sounds from the track louder.

[bearman]

Besides the sifting and the magnet, throw it in the microwave and blast it for a few seconds to make sure that anything that could possibly grow is totally dead.

[OzarkBelt]

Works fine for me:

Here's some pics:

[loathar]

Works fine. As recommended, run it through a sifter to get the large crap out of it.

[locoi1sa]

  Yes it will work. My HO scale sand is actualy pond silt. #16 sieve scales out to be about 1 1/2
inch stone. I use that for ballast on yard tracks and roads.

  Run a magnet through it first, Put on a thick coat of sand colored paint(latex not oil based),sprinkle the fine sand on it and give it a misting with water with a couple drops of soap in it, Then mix white glue with water 50/50 or more glue than water if you want your sand to look damp then give it a good soaking with the water/glue mix and let dry.

  The thing about silica sand is it will float on water so make sure its in the wet paint and just mist the soapy water the finer the better. While its still wet soak the glue/water real good or you will just end up with a thin crust.

   If your sand is dusty you can rinse it and dry it first. Silica dust is your enemy. You could look for a masonary supplier and ask for a couple pounds of FINE WASHED MASON SAND.  That would bring you close to scale desert sand.

   Pete
 

[Texas Zepher]

Two things about using real sand. 

1. Sift and Run it over a magnet several times to remove all the black sand (iron oxide related particels) in it.   Even if it gets glued down really good, some will eventually work loose.  The magnetic properties of it will eventually find their way into/onto the magnetic parts of locomotive motors.

2. It is heavy.  I used it on one module and didn't think anything about it.  The module was heavy anyway.  Then I did a foam module that was reall nice and light weight.   I started adding sand for scenery and realized the container of the sand I was planning on using (about 8 pounds worth) was heavier than the whole module.   I switched to the woodland scenics light rock materials.  The module still weighs less than 4 lbs. total.     The old module weighs about 15 lbs and I am guessing about 1/2 of that is just the sand.

And yes real sand does look too big, but not as much as I thought it would.  It is only when I (or anyone else) stands there and really analyzes the scene that the sand grains suddenly looks like small grapefruit.