Steam Locos or My Poor Trackwork?

[Anonymous]

Ballast...

You are going to find loose individual stones LONG after you laid ballast.

[Gerome]

Thanks for all the valuable feedback.

You have answered a lot of questions, including the time for ballasting (when all else is done and the layout has been running smoothly for some time.)

Over the weekend I had a chance to test out all my steam locos of a variety of sizes and models.  Only the one Bachmann Spectrum 2-10-2 had a problem, and then it ran without incident in a consist with its mate.??? Go figure.

 A string of rail cars seem to have no problem either.

With your advice I do see a few spots on the one tricky sectioin of track that need some attention.

Now I am going to make a separate post with some beginner questions about "dead" spots with some locos.

[jrbernier]

Gerome,

  You mentioned code 83 'Snap Switches'?  If you  have used 'Snap Switches', I can see problems with steamers - There is a continuous 18" radius curve through them.  My BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's will not go through them!  I have Atlas Customline turnouts(both the #4 and #6) and have very little problem with the steamers.  Running steam or consists of large diesels will find problems with your trackwork.  I originally had a fleet of Athearn GP's and had NO problems.  Then I added SD9's - they found the tight gauge & low joints pretty fast.  The steamers uncovered a couple other problem issues(like the house track with a 'Snap Switch' in it).  And get some freight cars so you can test by 'backing' a train through your trackwork.  I would hold off ballasting until you either resolve the problem areas or restrict some engines from those areas.

Jim

[mobilman44]

Hi!

One of my favorite tests for newly laid trackwork (outside of the usual gauging, eyeballing, and lucite test car) is to take a free rolling car and shove it as fast as I can through the area (without going so fast as to roll it over on its side in a curved section.  The lighter the car, the better, as it will react that much more to track problems.

Steam locos - in my experience - tend to have the lead truck derail because there is too little weight or spring pressure on it.  Often this can be adjusted with tensioning the spring or adding a little weight to it.

Of course there are the longer steam locos with 8 drive wheels that just can't handle (easily) sharp turnouts or curves. 

Another thing I ran into was that while my turnout was in gauge, etc., the tracks were in the curved section were not level (due to roadbed difficulty). 

And then there is the "picking" of the turnout (Atlas) and that needed a little file work to bevel it some.

The good news is that you definitely are on the right track in fixing the problems now and not accepting anything second rate. 

ENJOY,

Mobilman44

[jeffers_mz]

I have found that steam engines are maybe a LITTLE  pickier about track work than diesels. (YMMV)

I've also found that DIFFERENT locomotives find different track problems, much more so than any one type of locomotive finds ALL the problems.

I've also found that derailing issues stem from track problems about half the time, and they come from locomotive tuning about half the time too.

If one or more locomotives (or rolling stock) derails at one place, there's probably a track problem there. Track problems can really only occur in three dimensions, up and down, in and out or along the length of the rail like when changes happen too fast for the wheels to track reliably.

If one or more pieces of similar equipment has problems in different parts of the layout, I find that more often, the equipment has a problem, not the track.

Finally, the longer you participate in the hobby, the more equipment you collect. The more equipment you have, the more track flaws you find. That's why ballasting on our layout, which casts your trackwork literally in concrete, comes dead last. An expansion project was about to render parts of our layout hard to reach for the extended periods that track detailing and ballasting requires, so we went ahead and ballasted those sections only before the expansion.

The rest of the ballast won't go down until the terrain is in, painted, and basic detailed, all wiring complete and tested, and all track has been in operation for a good while to test for faults. In essence, we won't ballast until the absence of ballast is the last missing link and it becomes noticable as the only part of the layout that seems unfinished.

 

[selector]

Some fella over on the BLI HO forum claims he mounted his flanged drivers on his BLI Duplex and can go all the way through his yard with snap turnouts and curves near...I think it was 22".

Sure, Bud.  Sure.

[1948PRR]

I also agree with almost all, if not all of what's been said. However, I have two yards full of #4 "snaps", and my BLI 2-8-2, s and 4-8-2/s are fine through any ladder or yard track, forwards or backwards as long as I'm not speeding. I also operate Proto 0-6-0 and 0-8-0's in yard service routinely. I have some Bowsers, and a Spectrum 2-8-0 that also do fine. I did have a Genesis 2-8-2 that didn't cut it because the drivers were out of gauge, and an MDC 2-8-0 that climbed the rails on the #4s when running backwards. My spectrum 2-8-8-2 tracks a well as any diesel through those yards!! I have an IHC 2-8-0 coming in the mail.

My mainline curves are 1, 2, or 3 sections of Atlas 24", with flextrack, "eyeballed" easments. All code 83. Most of my trackwork is in "proof of concept" stage, and only spiked where necessary, to hold a curve, fix a bump or kink, or keep a ground throw from shewing the allignment.

Mainline switches are Atlas "Super" #6. These are very cost effective, although most of the ones I have, have the frog about 1/16 higher than the rails, which requires about 10 minutes of draw filing to get level. Then they are smooth as silk.

I agree that the T1 or J1 will find anything! They don't like the snaps at all, so they stay out of the yards (much like prototype, and I can live with that). What they found on my main, was where there was a slight rise and fall in track height, right at a curve, or turnout. Any time I modify trackwork, I burn it in with a 4-8-2 or 2-8-2 on a continuous run until it goes around 10 times, then I run the T or the J and do the same.

 

[Anonymous]

I discovered to my joy that the BLI Duplex 4-4-4-4 is the most picky trouble spot finder engine evar!

Watching that thing find spots that were not detected made for some VERY good track eventually. It will glide and.... BUMP over something microscopic in nature. Finding and fixing that problem ensured that all of the engines roll through without rattle, roll and shake.

Good trackwork equals freedom and train fun. So, break out the picky and onery big stuff and go find those flaws.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Steam locos can be extremely picky, especially on turnouts. All you can do is make sure your trackwork is absolutely perfect and that your turnouts are installed correctly and that the point rails of the turnouts don't rise or fall while a loco is crossing through. Keep in mind, even the most perfectly laid track sometimes has derailments.

[selector]

Phoebe Vet raised an excellent point.  I'd like to add that if the supporting structure is itself on an iffy footing, or if it doesn't support the track above it firmly along its length, dipping in the tracks as a heavy steamer traverses the weakest parts will cause problems, and once again, this is especially true on curves.

I am also one who has had to fight with track at certain places along my track plan when I introduced a new engine.  Eventually, I learned to be generous with my curves, and to take the time to bevel the leading edges of every segment of rail, make sure the ties were securely supported all along the tracks, and that super-elevation was kept to a minimum.

[loathar]

Snap switches don't like long steamers. Especially if they don't have blind drivers.
Did you take a gauge to all your locos to make sure the wheels are in gauge? What about coupler trip pins? Gotta make sure all that stuffs correct before you start looking at your track work.

[cacole]

Steam locomotives with a wheelbase longer than 0-6-0 are more prone to derailments through turnouts due to their rigidity, but your problem is most likely related to your statement that you are using Atlas Snap Switches -- they are poorly made and sometimes have an upward bow in the middle.  Pay particular attention to the tips of the point rails, and file them to a narrower taper as necessary.

Check the turnouts with a track gauge and you'll probably find areas where the rails are not within recommended tolerances.  Hold a ruler lengthwise on edge and check for a rocking motion caused by a hump in the middle, or low spots where you can see daylight under the ruler.

As a last resort, use a better quality turnout.

[Phoebe Vet]

I agree with everything said so far, but would add one more.  Look UNDER the track.  If track is not layed flat, it can cause derailments, and it will be more noticable with things like stream which have long rigid drive sections.  Buy a small level and check the level of your track in the curves and switches from left rail to right rail.  The first or last drive wheel only has to lift about half the height of the flange for the flange to "climb" the outside rail in a turn, or to climb the frog in a switch.

My steamers do not like 18" curves. My original 4x8 had them.  I have changed most of them to 22" which is the best I can do, but the rest of the layout, which is now about 18'x16' has 30" curves and #6 switches and has no problems at all.

Stop your largest steamer in the middle of your sharpest curve and look under it at the drive wheels.  Are they all on the rails, or are the middle wheels hanging in the air?

[tomikawaTT]

Long rigid wheelbase rolling stock will find every imperfection, especially in the outside rail of a tight curve.  The one thing I have done that seems to keep this sort of problem at bay is batter the rail joints.  A tiny bevel, about .3mm (.01") deep at the end of the rail and four or five times as long as it is deep, will keep the flanges from catching on and climbing over the joint.

The other thing I would suggest is, get a three point rail gauge and run it along any section of track that is the site of a derailment.  That will detect tight or loose gauge better than any rolling stock.

That transparent-deck track testing car can give you a false sense of security.  Most that I have seen have been fitted with four-wheel freight trucks, which are very forgiving about minor imperfections.  The most effective one I ever saw had been fitted with eight wheel buckeye trucks (borrowed from a Santa Fe steamer's tender) which were long enough to bind on microkinks and spots with tight gauge.

Hope these ideas help.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Hudson]

Well,

 18"-24" radii is SMALL for most steam locos. Only the smaller drivered variety will run with any reliability. To expect large drivered steam to run well on radii that small is wishful thinking in my book...........

 

What steam locos are you running?

[MisterBeasley]

   Is this typical and within the realm of acceptable trackwork?  Or do you old hands with the steamers have smooth sailing at all times? 

Well, yes, it's typical.  But no, it's not within the realm of acceptable trackwork.

Steamers are fussy.  Man, they are fussy.  But, your trackwork can be improved to the point where the steamers will be happy there, too.

You need to watch the troublesome engines as they cross the troublesome trackwork.  Something is wrong.  It may be a small twist in the track, or a kink in a rail, or a mis-aligned rail joiner.  You need to be persistant, and find the problem.  When you do, all your engines and rolling stock will be happier.

I've been through this, first with an 0-6-0 steamer.  I fixed the track, and all was well.  But then, I got a Hudson and it found another bad spot.  The engines were right.  Listen to your engines, Grasshopper.  They will not steer you wrong.

[wheeler]

I have "worked over" a few of my code 100 turnouts to insure the flanges are not rising up as they pass through. Sounds like you have looked at everything else(?)

[Gerome]

Finishing up my first trackwork.  Before I accept it and move on to ballasting and scenery, I want to be sure I have not tolerated poor work.

I am testing with locos as I have not a lot of rolling stock at the moment.

Track gauges show no problems.

Test car (homemade one of those lucite floor jobs with trucks to view wheel action) shows no problems and runs smoothly throughout.

All of the diesels, large and small, have no problems at all with the quality of the trackwork.

Longer frame steam locos are fussier.  Although not contantly derailing in any particular spot, they will come off the rails in some switch areas.  Nor will the same loco behave the same way twice.  And "identical" pairs of steamers will react differently.

Is this typical and within the realm of acceptable trackwork?  Or do you old hands with the steamers have smooth sailing at all times?

I am thinking that my trackwork is quite good and that the steamers tend to be fussy because of long rigid frames and wheel sets, "bouncy" pilot trucks, problems with prototypical tender distances even on 18" curves (although my large steamers are pretty well restricted to 24" or better lines), and are typically far less smooth drive train assemblies than diesels.

Or am I kidding myself and all locos should be running the same? (Although the little 3-Truck shay is also problem free as are the 0-8-0s etc.)

And in that vein, is there a typical modification that one should have to expect to make to my Atlas Code 83 snap switches to ensure smooth long steamer transit?  The derailments in these locations are sporadic and I can't determine the cause with close inspection.  Does one typically alter the frogs, guard rails or points in anyway to help steam locos along?

Thanks for any feedback