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Confused about turnouts

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  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 28 posts
Confused about turnouts
Posted by GKMDB on Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:52 PM
I am starting to build a brand new layout.  This is my first since I was a kid and my first post on Model Railroader.  I picked the West Virginia Northern from Model Railroader Track Plans as the most suitable one for my space in a finished part of our basement.  I am currently building L-girder type benchwork in multiple 2'x6' sections with a joist height of 44-1/2" that I can position as needed to support the layout.  I am planning to use Homasote board on risers to support the track, yard and other areas.  The lowest height shown on the track plan is 45".  I am planning to lay all the roadbed for the mainline so I can get a train up and running and do the yard and other work later.  I bought a box of Atlas code 83 flex track and was planning to use Atlas #6 turnouts on the mainline as per the plan.  I have been reading that special wiring is required for turnouts.  I understand that some turnouts have insulated "frogs" and others are not.  Which kind should I buy or does Atlas only make one kind?  I plan to use DCC but again I am confused about which one to buy.  I have seen a wireless system advertised for around $600.  I want to buy the best, most reliable and trouble-free so any advice here would also be appreciated.  If I buy a DCC system, can I run DC locomotives on it?  I have nothing at the moment but am looking at the Athearn MP15AC as a possible first.  Should I use #12 wire as a main with feeders to the track, and how far apart should feeders be spaced?  Am I on the right track?  Thanks, Glen.
  • Member since
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  • From: The Napa Valley
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Posted by nittyp on Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:27 PM

As far as I know (and I am only 2 years into the hobby), the atlas turnouts are fine with DCC. They have insulated frogs, so you just need to make sure you have feeder wires going to each section of track, to get good DCC signal pickup. I ran my main wire with 14 guage and then used 22 guage wire for the feeders, no less than every 3 feet of track. I went with the Digitrax system, Empire Builder. I am totally happy with it so far and it does more than I'd ever need. You must be willing to read the manual and refer to it often to learn the operation however. If you are a person that hates instructions and owners manuals, you may want another brand, but I'm sure they are all somewhat complicated for newbies like us. Digitrax also has a decent website for help and products. Plus, their decoders are probably the most common and are relatively inexpensive and easy to find.

I have two Athearn MP15-AC's (SP versions, without DCC and sound).. I have yet to run them as I still need to install the decoders for DCC operation, but the detail is awesome and price is right for such a detailed piece.

 Anyhow, I think that answers all you questions. Until someone chimes in next with more or better information. Other than the benchwork, which I think you'll get better advice from someone else. I have built mine out of 2" foam, sitting on metal bolt together shelving units from Home Depot. Its strong and so far been fine, I'm sure there are much better designs and advice out there on that subject than me!

Good luck and most of all, have a good time!

nittyp

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: East Granby, CT, USA
  • 505 posts
Posted by jim22 on Sunday, February 17, 2008 8:51 PM

I'm using Atlas CustomLine code 83 turnouts.  They have insulated, but conductive, frogs, so you have the option of powering them if needed for short wheel-base locos.  I have not needed to do so.  These turnouts work fine with DCC.  No special wiring is required.  The atlas turnouts are not power-routing, which means all 3 sets of rails exiting the turnout are constantly connected within the turnout.  When I installed mine, I did add a small gauge (30 ga, i.e. decoder wire) jumper wires between each point and it's associated stock rail for reliability.  Most of my track is not soldered at the rail joiners, so I have a set of 24 gauge feeders to each section of track, connected to a 12 gauge pair of DCC bus wires below the benchwork.  12 gauge is ovekill - 14 is fine, and you could even go smaller depending on the overall size of your layout.

There are many good DCC systems, many threads here on choosing one, and many opinions.  Personally, I like my NCE PowerCab.  I operate at a large layout where the NCE wireless system has not been very successful - maybe due to limited power or maybe interference.

Jim 

  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 17, 2008 8:53 PM

I use Kato and they are all live. I do use insulators in certain ways to help keep it all together.

I prefer metal frogs and big enough to handle most anything availible in the hobby.

I once used atlas and I like them, with the expectation that they wear out and have to be replaced.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Weymouth, Ma.
  • 5,199 posts
Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:31 PM

Welcome to the forum and your return to the hobby.

You seem to have done your homework and are on track.

The only comment I would make is your use of homosote for the subroadbed. Some have used it and allowed the subroadbed to span 16" w/o problems. I would suggest the use of at least 1/2 Ply and use the homosote as the "roadbed". This will allow greater support and there will never be any chance for sagging. Cookie cutter using the ply will actually aid in any of your upeasings and overeasings for the grades. As long as a plywood break is a joist/riser away from the start or end of the grade , the ply will bend to give the easing needed.

Modeling B&O- Chessie  Bob K.  www.ssmrc.org

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 28 posts
Posted by GKMDB on Monday, February 18, 2008 9:26 AM
Thanks to all for all the good advice.  So each 3' section of track should have it's own set of feeder wires.  Can I solder feeders to bottom of the rail joiners.  I have only seen pictures where the feeders were soldered to the side of the rail and I am concerned about melting the plastic ties.  I know I can buy rail joiners with wires already attached but these are expensive if you need many.  I was a little concerned about using Homasote alone but how about strips of plywood on edge glued to the underside of the Homasote.  Would that work to shore up any potential sag?  I like to sound of a wireless DCC system so it is probably best to not have any more metal in the room than necessary to avoid interference? So, don't use wire mesh for scenery, etc.?  Glad to hear I don't have to worry about turnouts.  I will just add them where needed as I lay the mainline track, drilling a slotted hole where appropriate to accommodate a tortoise switch machine later.  Is it a good idea to power all turnout motors, turntable motor, lights, etc. using a power pack separate from the DCC system?  Thanks again, Glen.
  • Member since
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  • From: SE Minnesota
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Posted by jrbernier on Monday, February 18, 2008 8:14 PM

Glen,

  You will have 'sag' with that Homasote - Trust me.  I use 1/2" plywood for my 'sub-roadbed' with is supported every 16" by a 1x2 riser.  On top of that I use 'Homabed' roadbed for the mainline and standard cork roadbed for the sidings & spurs. 

  As others have mentioned, the Atlas Customline turnouts are basically 'DCC Ready' and can be used 'as is'.  If you want to power the frog, there are contacts on many of the switch machines that can do that.  With most good locomotives, you have 'all wheel' pickup and leaving the frog unpowered is no problem.

  Soldering track feeders to the rail joiner really does not resolve the electrical problem.  You still have the 'mechanical' connection of the rail joiner to the rail that will fail down the line.  Soldering #22 feeders to the side of the rail really is not as hard as it looks.  First of all, do not use a large 'solder gun'.  Get a small 25-40 watt solder pencil type of soldering iron.  Practice on a scrap of flex track until you get the feel.  Here is what I do to solder feeders:

  • Strip & twist the feeder wire.
  • Stick it in some solder flux and then 'tin' it with your soldering iron.
  • Use a small needle nose plier to shape into an 'L' .
  • Clean the side of the rail and apply some solder paste.
  • Using the needle nose pliers to position/hold the feeder agains the rail, apply heat/solder to the surface.  It will draw the solder into the joint.  Pull the soldering iron away and hold the joint until it cools down.

  You can use water soaked paper towels as 'heat sinks' on either side of the feeder joint to keep the heat from moving down the rail and melting ties.  I have soldered hundreds of feeders and have only about 3-4 melted ties(usually from not following the above steps).  A good solid solder connection to the rail will insure you have no connectivity problems.  Like I mentioned before, never 'trust' a rail joiner for an electrical connection. You can also solder some of the track joints, but limit it to every other one as the trackage needs some 'give' for expansion & contraction.

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

  • Member since
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  • From: East Granby, CT, USA
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Posted by jim22 on Monday, February 18, 2008 11:02 PM

I found it easy to solder the feeders to the underside of the rail.  I stripped, tinned, and bent a 90 degree angle on the end of the wire.  Remove the plastic between a pair of ties under each rail.  Clean the spot with a piece of sandpaper and tin that.  Then solder the feeder to the rail.  After ballasting, you won't see the feeder at all.  I had no problems with melting ties.  Solder flux for electronics work is also a big help.

Jim 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 28 posts
Posted by GKMDB on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:55 PM

Jim,

Thanks for those soldering tips.  I'm sure I will be able to do that by following your excellent instructions.  I'm sure I can cut and slide a few ties out of the way while I solder the area and then slide them back into place.  I am also now going to use plywood as my sub roadbed and bevel the homasote into roadbed under the actual track.  I visited a friend of a friend last night who lives in Findlay and has been model railroading for 50 years.  He has over 100 steam locomotives, mostly brass.  His layout is about 9' x 33' and I was overwhelmed by all that he has.  It is all DC only and he wasn't too impressed with DCC as he feels it is not reliable.  I guess the old timers like to stick with what they know.  I am still undecided, but leaning towards DCC, hoping that over the years it has become reliable and I will be happy with that more expensive route.  Thanks again.

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