DeadheadGreg wrote:So, you're saying I can't use the Switch Control to power the frog? This is what I want to do: I'm using C.I. ground throws to throw the switch, and I wanted to use the Switch Control to control the polarity of the frog. But now I just thought of some possible problems: I would cause a short if the polarity wasn't switch before the point contacted the stock rail, correct? But if I did create a short, would it go away once the frog polarity was switched?
So, you're saying I can't use the Switch Control to power the frog? This is what I want to do: I'm using C.I. ground throws to throw the switch, and I wanted to use the Switch Control to control the polarity of the frog. But now I just thought of some possible problems: I would cause a short if the polarity wasn't switch before the point contacted the stock rail, correct? But if I did create a short, would it go away once the frog polarity was switched?
Correct. The issue is whether the short circuit created is going to some damage before you eliminate it. The potential for damage depends on the short circuit current and duration. If you have a fast acting circuit breaker on your power pack, damage will be limited to none. If a 2 amp current flows for a while you could burn the polarity contact or where the points touch the stock rails. Basically, the smallest conduction path in the short circuit is going to melt first. Some solutions:
1) Buy the CI ground throws with the built-in contacts.
2) Add your own contact on the turnout lnkage.
3) Since you are on DC, turn the track voltage to zero before throwing a SPDT toggle or slide switch for the frog polarity or moving the points. Turn the voltage back up only after moving both the points and the switch for the frog polarity. This would simulate stopping the train while the brakeman throws the turnout.
4) Forget about powering the frog with a contact. Let the points do the polarity switching (on Shinoharas). Problem is that occasionally the points will fail to make good contact and you will have a dead spot on the turnout.
5) Conduct surgery on your Shinoharas. Insulate the points from each other and the frog. Run jumpers from the stock rails to each adjoining point. Install the frog feeder and polarity contact. Now the throwing of the points and frog polarity at separate times will not cause an immediate short.
This type of short circuit can be a problem with the Tortoise switch motors in turnouts where the points also switch polarity when the turnout is thrown (think your Shinoharas and Pecos). The frog contact at the switch motor changes polarity as the motor moves, but the spring action and the slow motion in the linkage can prevent the point from leaving the stock rail before the frog contact is switched. Instant short circuit. Just make sure the linkage is reasonably well adjusted and the problem no longer exists.
Elimination of this possible short is also the reason why it is desirable to have the frog polarity contact on the turnout throw linkage. On one of my layouts (years ago), I was intending to install a Nichrome wire switch machine. It would be controlled by a SPST toggle (non-momentary) on the fascia. So when I built the turnout, I installed a DPDT (no center off) toggle to both run the switch motor and switch the frog polarity. Never got around to building the switch motor, I simply moved the points by hand and then threw the toggle (or vice versa). I would have had your short circuit problem except that my turnouts had points insulated from each other and the frog (solution #5). And I usually stopped the train before throwing the turnout anyway (solution #3).
I think you have a pretty good understanding of the situation now. Get busy building your layout!
yours in wiring
Fred W
Yeah, I understand now. I was originally confused about what the Selector was; i thought it was the Switch Control.
DeadheadGreg wrote:Yeah, I understand the difference between blocks and a switch for turnout polarity. Not sure how you got confused about that. Maybe it was the Atlas selector thing; the 4-to-a-piece things are not what I'm going to use, I'm going to have the ones where they have a single sliding switch per unit. I thought they were the selectors, but they are the Switch Controls. I'm going to use those for the turnout polarity, but after looking on the Atlas website, I think I might go with the Selectors instead anyway, because they work for 2 cabs. Im also looking into the Connector also, because that way I could do simple block wiring for a single cab.
DeadheadGreg wrote:Yeah thats helped. I've decided I'm going to use Atlas selectors for block/cab control. I'm going to have 2 cabs. With 2 cabs, if I'm operating just by myself with one train, I can simply turn the other cab off and then it would be regular block control. I'm also going to be using the Atlas selectors for power-routing my turnouts, using green wire to connect to the frogs, because, well, frogs are green. Seems logical, right?
I think the source of my confusion is obvious from the second quote (my emphasis).
It doesn't matter because the Atlas Switch Controllers cannot be used to control the frog polarity. They are momentary electrical switches. You slide them to the desired position and push down to throw the turnout. All two coil switch machines need a momentary shot of current to activate the desired magnetic field and throw the turnout. Prolonged current flow will burn them up.
For this reason, I do not recommend Atlas Switch Controllers, especially since you are not using Atlas turnouts. The Atlas Switch Controllers have a reputation for sticking in the down position and passing current even when they are released. If you need a block of push buttons, Acme makes some quality sets of buttons ganged in a box or for flush mount.
If you are using Tortoise or other motor driven switch machines, the control system is different.
To power the frogs of your Shinohara turnouts, you need an SPDT contact on the switch machine itself or on the turnout throw mechanism. Atlas switch machines (except the "deluxe" version) do not have the contacts. You can add the Atlas Snap Relay to get the contacts. Rix and most other 2 coil switch machines do have the contacts built in, as does Tortoise. Caboose Industries manual throws are available with the contacts, as are Blue Point and Humpyard manual throws. Many make their own manual throws using toggle or slide switches to both latch the throw and provide the frog contact. Proto87 stores also sells inexpensive latching relays for this purpose.
trying to sort through the confusion
DeadheadGreg wrote:Yeah thats helped. I've decided I'm going to use Atlas selectors for block/cab control. I'm going to have 2 cabs. With 2 cabs, if I'm operating just by myself with one train, I can simply turn the other cab off and then it would be regular block control. I'm also going to be using the Atlas selectors for power-routing my turnouts, using green wire to connect to the frogs, because, well, frogs are green. Seems logical, right? Basically what I need is someone to take my track plan and indicate where I need to put gaps and feeders.Do you think I should just go with 2-rail wiring? I'm waiting on Andy Sperandeo's easy wiring book to come in the mail, but after stopping by the lhs Sunday and looking at Rick Selby's book, I'm wondering if i made a wrong decision, because Selby's book has biiiiiig clear pictures. So we'll see what happens.
Yeah thats helped. I've decided I'm going to use Atlas selectors for block/cab control. I'm going to have 2 cabs. With 2 cabs, if I'm operating just by myself with one train, I can simply turn the other cab off and then it would be regular block control. I'm also going to be using the Atlas selectors for power-routing my turnouts, using green wire to connect to the frogs, because, well, frogs are green. Seems logical, right?
Basically what I need is someone to take my track plan and indicate where I need to put gaps and feeders.
Do you think I should just go with 2-rail wiring? I'm waiting on Andy Sperandeo's easy wiring book to come in the mail, but after stopping by the lhs Sunday and looking at Rick Selby's book, I'm wondering if i made a wrong decision, because Selby's book has biiiiiig clear pictures. So we'll see what happens.
Greg
You said you wanted to learn DC wiring before moving on to DCC. Here's your chance. Either book is very good - I personally think Andy's is a little more in-depth.
The Atlas Selectors lock you into common rail wiring because they are SPDT slide switches mounted 4 to a case.
Power routing of turnouts comes from powered frogs that are not isolated from the track at the diverging end of the turnout. It has nothing to do with your block selectors. When you change the polarity of the frog - must be done when the turnout is thrown with a live frog - you make the forg the correct polarity for the direction the turnout is thrown. For the other path, both the frog and stock rail are of the same polarity, and hence the path is "dead" until a gap or insulating rail joiner is reached. In a spur, you leave off the gap or insulating rail joiner beyond the frog (in the frog rail), and the spur is dead when the turnout is thrown against it. And live when the turnout is thrown for it. That is power routing, pure and simple. http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html has some excellent diagrams of various turnout wiring schemes. If you do not insert the gaps between the "adjacent track" and the diverging end of the turnout, and your Shinohara turnouts are actually wired as in diagram 4, you can use power routing.
I'm not sure how your Shinohara turnouts are wired. They are most likely wired as in diagram 4 on the linked web page - older Shinoharas were. It is possible that they have been modified to be "DCC friendly", in which case they may be pretty much like diagram 5. In either case, reliability and electrical pickup is enhanced by providing a polarity contact on the switch machine or throw mechanism and powering the frog directly (see diagram 7).
Last item - with power routing turnouts, you must gap the frog rails in any case where there are normal feeders beyond the frog, or there is another frog beyond the current frog. Your wiring book will help you with this.
With DCC, power routing turnouts are not really wanted because you cannot control the lights or sounds when the track is dead. So on many layouts with live frogs, the frog rails are gapped shortly after the frogs in every case. A dead end spur now requires a block switch and feeder in DC. The power routing simply saves you a block switch and the extra feeder for a dead end spur only. The cost of power routing is some extra care in planning gaps to avoid short circuits at turnouts, as well as creating blocks.
The book will hopefully explain this much better than even this long-winded post.
DeadheadGreg wrote:So heres my track plan. Its not 100% exact, because you can't do curved turnouts in the Atlas software, but this shows every proper turnout location and direction. This is the result of many minutes of classtime and lectures ignored, stuck in deep operating thought haha. I posted this for critique and help with wiring. I'm going to be using DC cab control with blocks. I've been thinking about going to DCC, but a few things have kept me from going there right now, mainly money and inexperience. I need/want to be able to execute and understand basic DC wiring before I go to DCC, so thats that. I'm undecided between having 2 cabs or 3. Either way, I want to have the passing siding/runaround, and the 3 spurs isolated, to be able to park engines on them and still run other trains around them. Also, i want the mine branch as its own block.. I'm not going to be worrying about the yard branch right now, because thats Phase II of the layout, to be completed next year, along with the extension on the left. So basically what I need help on is figuring out where to place gaps/insulated rail joiners, and if I should go with Common Rail or Two Rail wiring. All of my turnouts are Shinohara code 70 HO turnouts. I've checked them out, and I'm pretty sure all of them are the same in that the frogs are metal but with a black plastic insulation on the inside part of the rail. This also brings up the issue of all-live vs. power-routing turnouts. I'm thinking of doing all-live, based on the reading i've done so far. I'm going to be using Caboose Industries ground throws to throw them.
So heres my track plan. Its not 100% exact, because you can't do curved turnouts in the Atlas software, but this shows every proper turnout location and direction. This is the result of many minutes of classtime and lectures ignored, stuck in deep operating thought haha. I posted this for critique and help with wiring. I'm going to be using DC cab control with blocks. I've been thinking about going to DCC, but a few things have kept me from going there right now, mainly money and inexperience. I need/want to be able to execute and understand basic DC wiring before I go to DCC, so thats that.
I'm undecided between having 2 cabs or 3. Either way, I want to have the passing siding/runaround, and the 3 spurs isolated, to be able to park engines on them and still run other trains around them. Also, i want the mine branch as its own block.. I'm not going to be worrying about the yard branch right now, because thats Phase II of the layout, to be completed next year, along with the extension on the left.
So basically what I need help on is figuring out where to place gaps/insulated rail joiners, and if I should go with Common Rail or Two Rail wiring. All of my turnouts are Shinohara code 70 HO turnouts. I've checked them out, and I'm pretty sure all of them are the same in that the frogs are metal but with a black plastic insulation on the inside part of the rail. This also brings up the issue of all-live vs. power-routing turnouts. I'm thinking of doing all-live, based on the reading i've done so far. I'm going to be using Caboose Industries ground throws to throw them.
The number of cabs is determined by the number of operators or the number of trains running simultaneously - whichever is less.
The premises on which DC cab or block control wiring is based are:
To use common rail wiring, certain conditions must exist:
The block switches for more than 2 throttles are usually more expensive than for just 2 throttles. Usually, for 3 or more throttles, rotary switches are used for the block toggles. For 2 throttles, SPDT or DPDT (depending on your needs) center-off toggle switches are used.
Rules of thumb for setting block boundaries and blocks:
Hope this helps
...Beuhler? Beuhler?
anybody else? haha
You will get a lot of critiques here and some you will have to take with a grain of salt, build to your personal desire and go for it and remember this is only a hobby, And with any plan it will change as you go, looks like a grand start.
Please dont take the following in the wrong manner, as this is from a Father, Stepfather, Grandfather, Railroad Machinist Foreman, Colage Instructor and I hope as your friend. But when you say your daydreaming through lectures and classes, I hope its not on a full time basis, Without the Education you will not have the learning skills to enhance a higher level of opertunities with anything you desire, this hobby is from disposable income, the more education you have, the more an employer will pay for your skills.
Greg..Please as I said above... dont take this other then good advice, as I do not mean to sound harsh...wish you the best in your hobby and in your lifes goals...Take care...John
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj151/Gumbo72203/?action=view¤t=Finalplan.jpg
Thats the link in case the picture doesn't show.
Basically, what I'm going to do is have point-to-point operation from the yard to the mine. Trains coming from the yard to drop off empties to be picked up by the mine branch engine, and then either drop off or pick up cars from the local industrial spurs, and pick up the loaded hoppers brought down from the mine. I've added the two turnouts on the far right so that I can have continuous running when I want to, or if my dad secretly goes up into my old bedroom to run trains when I'm not home haha.
Oh, and the track plan isn't exactly to scale. Atlas doesn't have curved turnouts in their program, so I've drawn it the way I could. The turnout directions are all correct, however, because I know frog-to-frog wiring is a critical area.
Sooo yeah. Thats about all I got for now haha
edit: So i can't get the picture to show, but you can click the link to see it. I can only save the plan in atlas' program as a bitmap image, and photobucket won't let me upload any other file formats