AirslideClyde wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: orsonroy wrote: Getting back on track, the hobby DOES need more diversity in its figure packs, but not in the way that they're doing so. Woodland Scenics has perhaps the best variety, but they mix up the races as if all the sets were to be used by post-1970 modelers. Sad truth is that for most of what we modelers like to model (the "transitional" era of roughly 1945-1965) segregation in ALL things was the order of the day. That most of us don't model that correctly (I've never seen a "Whites Only" water fountain on a steam-era Southern layout, for example) is partially racism, partially the inability to find enough of the correct figures needed, partialy ignorance of the past, and partially rose-colored glasses.There was only one nationally-known modeler (he's more known for his videos) that even attemped to model the era you cite above and he got creamed for it. I'm talking about Allen Keller. He'd had a couple of pictures of his layout in MR which had the old rebel flag (which is considered racist now) flying in front of a courthouse IIRC. The mail condemning that was plentiful. He said in his defense that he was just trying to accurately model the South as it was in his particular time period. So, as a warning, if you do a layout with ethnic other than white people on it, and you post pics of it, be prepared for the negative onslaught, unfortunately.strangely enough, i have an old Georgia state flag (which is a rebel flag combined with the state symbol) hanging in my train room. It covers the french style door that seperates my room from the rest of the house, but secretly i keep it up just to see peoples reaction when they come in.the gray club comment was pretty funny - i joined that club a few years ago and am becoming closer and closer to being a full member with every passing day..YIKES!!
jackn2mpu wrote: orsonroy wrote: Getting back on track, the hobby DOES need more diversity in its figure packs, but not in the way that they're doing so. Woodland Scenics has perhaps the best variety, but they mix up the races as if all the sets were to be used by post-1970 modelers. Sad truth is that for most of what we modelers like to model (the "transitional" era of roughly 1945-1965) segregation in ALL things was the order of the day. That most of us don't model that correctly (I've never seen a "Whites Only" water fountain on a steam-era Southern layout, for example) is partially racism, partially the inability to find enough of the correct figures needed, partialy ignorance of the past, and partially rose-colored glasses.There was only one nationally-known modeler (he's more known for his videos) that even attemped to model the era you cite above and he got creamed for it. I'm talking about Allen Keller. He'd had a couple of pictures of his layout in MR which had the old rebel flag (which is considered racist now) flying in front of a courthouse IIRC. The mail condemning that was plentiful. He said in his defense that he was just trying to accurately model the South as it was in his particular time period. So, as a warning, if you do a layout with ethnic other than white people on it, and you post pics of it, be prepared for the negative onslaught, unfortunately.
orsonroy wrote: Getting back on track, the hobby DOES need more diversity in its figure packs, but not in the way that they're doing so. Woodland Scenics has perhaps the best variety, but they mix up the races as if all the sets were to be used by post-1970 modelers. Sad truth is that for most of what we modelers like to model (the "transitional" era of roughly 1945-1965) segregation in ALL things was the order of the day. That most of us don't model that correctly (I've never seen a "Whites Only" water fountain on a steam-era Southern layout, for example) is partially racism, partially the inability to find enough of the correct figures needed, partialy ignorance of the past, and partially rose-colored glasses.
Getting back on track, the hobby DOES need more diversity in its figure packs, but not in the way that they're doing so. Woodland Scenics has perhaps the best variety, but they mix up the races as if all the sets were to be used by post-1970 modelers. Sad truth is that for most of what we modelers like to model (the "transitional" era of roughly 1945-1965) segregation in ALL things was the order of the day. That most of us don't model that correctly (I've never seen a "Whites Only" water fountain on a steam-era Southern layout, for example) is partially racism, partially the inability to find enough of the correct figures needed, partialy ignorance of the past, and partially rose-colored glasses.
There was only one nationally-known modeler (he's more known for his videos) that even attemped to model the era you cite above and he got creamed for it. I'm talking about Allen Keller. He'd had a couple of pictures of his layout in MR which had the old rebel flag (which is considered racist now) flying in front of a courthouse IIRC. The mail condemning that was plentiful. He said in his defense that he was just trying to accurately model the South as it was in his particular time period. So, as a warning, if you do a layout with ethnic other than white people on it, and you post pics of it, be prepared for the negative onslaught, unfortunately.
strangely enough, i have an old Georgia state flag (which is a rebel flag combined with the state symbol) hanging in my train room. It covers the french style door that seperates my room from the rest of the house, but secretly i keep it up just to see peoples reaction when they come in.
the gray club comment was pretty funny - i joined that club a few years ago and am becoming closer and closer to being a full member with every passing day..YIKES!!
First off, I have nothing against the rebel flag. Ever notice Larry the Cable Guy's hat? Doesn't that have a version of it on their?
Anyways, as to becoming a member of the gray club - does that include facial hair? I don't have to worry about head hair as that's going away day by day (I'm 56), but my beard is staying rather thick and growing, and the gray hairs are taking over from the brown ones.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
shayfan84325 wrote: MisterBeasley wrote: Rotorranch wrote: Well said, AirslideCyde! I know of many modelers of diverse colors, but to date, no green or grey ones! Fascinating. But those of us who have lived long and prospered have indeed become "grey" model railroaders.Good point! As a member of the "grey" set, I'll also point out that the prepainted figure sets seem a little deficient when it comes to chronologically enhanced folks like me (and, I presume, Mister Beasley).
MisterBeasley wrote: Rotorranch wrote: Well said, AirslideCyde! I know of many modelers of diverse colors, but to date, no green or grey ones! Fascinating. But those of us who have lived long and prospered have indeed become "grey" model railroaders.
Rotorranch wrote: Well said, AirslideCyde! I know of many modelers of diverse colors, but to date, no green or grey ones!
Fascinating. But those of us who have lived long and prospered have indeed become "grey" model railroaders.
Good point! As a member of the "grey" set, I'll also point out that the prepainted figure sets seem a little deficient when it comes to chronologically enhanced folks like me (and, I presume, Mister Beasley).
Hey! I resemble that!
For that matter, has anyone seen any appropriate figures for my planned sumo tournament? Not just fat, but SUMO fat (most of which is actually muscle!)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
wjstix wrote:Plus...this might be getting into another touchy subject...how many US model railroaders are non-whites?? I suspect the pct. of white modellers is higher than the pct. of white people in the US population. I can only recall seeing a couple of black modellers in MR over the years, right now I can't think of any Asian modellers.
Well, of the 50 or so model railroaders I know by name, four (one deceased) are black. Can't think of any other "ethnic" modelers. Only three women as well, and they're more toy train collectors as opposed to active modelers.
I don't think there would be a negative reaction to more diverse figures, but I guess it would depend on what those figures were doing. If they're all taggers and porters, that company had best put on it's asbestos underwear.
Actually, the manufacturers have it pretty right. Fresh human flesh is pretty much peach colored, once you wash the hemoglobin red off it. So is pork. Is that why cannibal barbecue was referred to as 'long pig?'
OTOH, unless you're modeling the coroner's workshop, that's a color that isn't seen very often.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - without dissected model corpses)
MisterBeasley wrote: I suspect that "flesh" is like "gray." It's not meant as a social comment, merely as a specific spectral combination. Actually, I don't think it matches up very well with Caucasian skin tones, either. It kind of looks like the back of Darth Vader's head inside that helmet, sort of sickly and pale, untouched by sunlight or air.
I suspect that "flesh" is like "gray." It's not meant as a social comment, merely as a specific spectral combination. Actually, I don't think it matches up very well with Caucasian skin tones, either. It kind of looks like the back of Darth Vader's head inside that helmet, sort of sickly and pale, untouched by sunlight or air.
I believe that you're right. There is no malice on the part of the manufacturers, in my opinion. Even so, they could do better. I find it difficult to mix convincing skin colors - all of mine look like the person is either dead or seriously ill. I'd love it of the manufacturers would come up with a spectrum of skin tone paints and just name them Skin Tone #1, #2, #3, etc. I'll look through the glass bottle to choose the one that I feel works best for my situation.
I'm not really offended by the fact that the color labeled "Flesh" is peach colored, but it bugs me. There may be a message that it is sending, even though most of us don't want it sent. I really thought that by the time 2008 rolled around that such paint color/label combinations would have long since faded into history.
Try to imagine this scene: We are looking in on a paint manufacturer's production line and there is someone who has skin other than white, and he/she is pouring peach-colored paint into bottles marked "Flesh." The picture that creates in my mind makes me sad. If for no one other than that production worker, the paint manufacturers should be more sensitive.
BTW, I recently purchased a package of truck drivers - unpainted. There isn't a woman in that whole package of drivers.
Hey, you paint and figure manufacturers! Wake up! The world is changing and you're not keeping up.
Hi, Stix.
Don't know how many Americans of Japanese descent are currently model railroaders (my son isn't, even though I've tried!) but at least one past president of the NMRA was.
As for how many Japanese who live in Japan are model railroaders - probably more than Americans of ANY descent. Japanese culture is VERY railroad oriented.
For the record, my own ancestors (two and three generations back) came from Poland, Ireland and Bavaria. I was born in 'New Yawk.' Doesn't that make me a 'native' American?
yougottawanta wrote:I will probably take a beating for this but it needs to be said.
And it didn't "need to be said." You are far from the first person to express this sentiment. We've heard it before, many times.
By the way, "gordo" means "fat."
Well Preiser does make a set called something like "foreign visitors" that has black, asian, and middle eastern people in it; there are a few other blacks in other sets too. They also make some asian figures, including IIRC a set of Japanese RR workers. Woodland Scenics has several sets out with black people in different walks of life - driving cars, logging, railroaders etc.
I think part of it is the fact that the big figure manufacturers, Preiser and others (Merten) that are commonly used on model railroads worldwide are German or Austrian, so are making figures based on their country's population.
Plus...this might be getting into another touchy subject...how many US model railroaders are non-whites?? I suspect the pct. of white modellers is higher than the pct. of white people in the US population. I can only recall seeing a couple of black modellers in MR over the years, right now I can't think of any Asian modellers.
Now, I don't mean white modellers would only want white figures on their layout, or anything like that, but unless they're modelling an area where there were a large black population (like the South, or a big city like New York, Chicago, Detroit etc.) it might just not occur to a white model railroader that 'hey, I need to get some black (or asian) figures on the layout'.
jackn2mpu wrote:So, as a warning, if you do a layout with ethnic other than white people on it, and you post pics of it, be prepared for the negative onslaught, unfortunately.
Displaying the Confederate flag on a layout may upset some people, as it is an uncomfortable reminder of a time when blacks were mistreated, but simply having black figures on the layout would be no reason for a "negative onslaught."
traindaddy1 wrote: You know, I never gave much thought to ethnic representation.
You know, I never gave much thought to ethnic representation.
Orsonroy:
I am in my 60s and grew up in Upstate New York.
I have NEVER seen a "whites only" water fountain, restaurant, or anything else except in museums and publications about the south. I had a black teacher in elementary school, and black friends in school.
While there have always been, and will always be, racists in every community, it was never institutionalized government policy nationwide during my lifetime except in several southern states.
Model figures should absolutely reflect the diversity of population which has always been one of America's strengths.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
orsonroy wrote:Getting back on track, the hobby DOES need more diversity in its figure packs, but not in the way that they're doing so. Woodland Scenics has perhaps the best variety, but they mix up the races as if all the sets were to be used by post-1970 modelers. Sad truth is that for most of what we modelers like to model (the "transitional" era of roughly 1945-1965) segregation in ALL things was the order of the day. That most of us don't model that correctly (I've never seen a "Whites Only" water fountain on a steam-era Southern layout, for example) is partially racism, partially the inability to find enough of the correct figures needed, partialy ignorance of the past, and partially rose-colored glasses.
Well said, AirslideCyde! I know of many modelers of diverse colors, but to date, no green or grey ones!
As the immortal Red Green says "Were're all in this together".
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
I'm a recent arrival in model railroading, but have been involved with military miatures and dioramas for quite a few years. Painting figures of ancient Egyptians, who have mostly exposed skin but hardly in the color called "Flesh", it is obvious that "Flesh" is the name of a color and not a painting recommendation. Not all roofs are "Roof Brown" (are any?), not all ties are "Tie Brown" (I have several that are blue and green!), and hardly any dirt is that color labeled "Earth". IIRC, Humbrol once tried to label their paints by number only - you can imagine the confusion THAT could cause. You mix and you match, and, of course, it takes several different colors to capture the shades and highlights of even a "white" face.
Yes, it is good that we have begun noticing such things. As a disabled person, I have had just a small taste of how invisible anyone who is not "just like the rest of us" can be. But painting 15% of the figures on our layouts "African-American Brown" does not make us racially sensitive. Why, when people of all colors figure so prominently into the history of railroading, is model railroading still primarily a hobby for "white guys"?
BTW: Do the Japanese MRR manufacturers sell figures painted in more appropriate skin tones for the legions of modelers in Japan? I can't imagine an Nj gauge city scene populated with pasty-faced gaijin!
Paint manufacturers have, to some extent, standardized colors. I find that I can get a container of "gray" acrylic paint from different companies, and it looks exactly the same as any other "gray." That's very helpful when doing things like touch-up painting of roads, etc., where you want to match a color, but ran out of the original jar of paint.
So, what color band-aid do you use when you cut yourself with a hobby knife? I kind of liked it when my daughter was a little girl, and the band-aids were red and blue and yellow, with stars on them. Those "flesh-toned" things never matched, anyway, so why try to hide it?
I kind of mixed ' n ' matched. At first I used exclusivly Tamiya's paints, their flesh for everybody left as flesh for caucasian , their redbrown over the flesh made a good native american colour and their earth colour over the original flesh tone made a passably african -american. Now the pigment is very heavy with Tamiya and tended to if used in layers cover alot of detail espeacially on fine detailed figures like the undec Preisers ( which if you have the steady hand a patients the cheapest way to get crowds ) so lately I've been using the acrylic model; master military series from testors, they have several different flesh base colours that will match just about anything you want.
Rob
I was an N scaler in the late '60s and through the '70s, and then had other priorities for 20 years. When I re-entered the hobby in in 1999, I noticed a lot of changes, mostly for the better (e.g., DCC, code 70 and 83 flex track, sculpt a mold, gound foam, and really good switch machines, just to name a few). I also noticed HO scale signs of the times had changed over the past 20+ years - we can buy lots of up-to-date stuff. Yet, when I stood before the Floquil paint display and saw the color "flesh" (peach color) it occurred to me that it is way out of date. Most of the rest of model railroading is pretty current: There are kit and RTR modern locomotives, current automobiles, plastic figures using lap-top computers, wind turbines. So, how did we miss population diversity? Surely folks besides me have noticed the wonderful variety that is the current US population.
I read and hear statistics that indicate that peach colored "flesh" is as out of date as an Edsel, and I wonder why there is so little interest in updating our selection of model humans. Here's one example: Ogden, Utah - the city that was once a major railroad hub of the west - no longer has a majority ethnicity (less than half the folks in Ogden are white).
One thing that kind of bugs me about it is that the hobby store with the Floquil display is in Ogden. When a non-white modeler sees that rack of paint, do they think that they are not invited to participate? Maybe they take it in stride and disregard it, but maybe it shows a little out-of-dateness in our hobby and they wonder if they are welcome. I'm OK with trying to mix my own, although it's tough to come up with convincing shades. I really started this thread in hopes that some of the paint/figure manufacturers would see a situation that needs some fixing.
By the way, another thing we see little of in the figure racks are persons with disabilities (there are a few folks using wheelchairs, but not much other variety). I'll let someone else carry that torch.
Phil: A very interesting subject! I guess that I have a different perspective and it is probably 'politically incorrect' so bear with me. In my 50+ years of HO, I have had a number of different layouts. And, all have had people. In the early days, they were metal and later, plastic.
You know, I never gave much thought to ethnic representation. The layouts were, to me, after all was said and done, just backdrops for my trains which were the main focus of my attention. Perhaps, aside from production costs, this idea might have a bearing on some manufactuers' decision not to diversify their products.
Getting back to your original topic.....Try Testors paints (mix and match, let dry & re-apply). All the best.
MisterBeasley wrote: Phoebe Vet wrote: I, for one, feel we are all "Americans".Yes, I think we would all be better off if we dropped terms like Native Americans, African-Americans and Chinese Americans, and just think of ourselves as one people, one nation.Named, of course, after an Italian mapmaker.
Phoebe Vet wrote: I, for one, feel we are all "Americans".
I, for one, feel we are all "Americans".
Yes, I think we would all be better off if we dropped terms like Native Americans, African-Americans and Chinese Americans, and just think of ourselves as one people, one nation.
Named, of course, after an Italian mapmaker.
Discovery attributed to another Italian, working for the Spanish Monarchy - even though there were intelligent humans in the Western Hemisphere (west of the Atlantic Ocean) for thousands of years before that - including, most likely, some descendants of Danes who had arrived centuries earlier via the Northern route.
What's REALLY interesting is that these two continents were given Signor Vespucci's FIRST name!
For those interested, the Japanese word Gaijin and the Mandarin Chinese Wairin are written with the same two Kanji Characters, translatable as, "Elsewhere Person."
Jetrock wrote:Much depends on what and where you are modeling, but often the area closest to the railroad tracks was the cheapest area to rent, and closest to the factories where working-class people worked--so many ethnic communities sprang up near the tracks. Thus it makes sense that model railroaders would model those communities.
Much depends on what and where you are modeling, but often the area closest to the railroad tracks was the cheapest area to rent, and closest to the factories where working-class people worked--so many ethnic communities sprang up near the tracks. Thus it makes sense that model railroaders would model those communities.
Agreed. A large eastern city is going to be much more diverse than a small midwest town. My little town I live in now is 98% white. The era you model could make a difference too. If you model southern states in the 40's-50's, you could be (unfortunately) prototypically accurate to have a sign that says "whites only". Sad, but true.
(Laughing hysterically) That's true. I had forgotten that. I wonder if they still teach that in school. Could have been worse... Picture living in the United States of Vespucci.
Phoebe Vet wrote: "Odd, isn't it, that a German company is making some of the best African-American figures?"I sincerely doubt that the German company is making "African-Americans".There are dark skin people all over the world. Only in America do we feel the idiotic need to append the title "African" to them. Only in America do we feel that people of different ethnic heritage need to have that heritage made a part of their being. I, for one, feel we are all "Americans".I bet that German company has never heard the term African-German. lol
"Odd, isn't it, that a German company is making some of the best African-American figures?"
I sincerely doubt that the German company is making "African-Americans".
There are dark skin people all over the world. Only in America do we feel the idiotic need to append the title "African" to them. Only in America do we feel that people of different ethnic heritage need to have that heritage made a part of their being. I, for one, feel we are all "Americans".
I bet that German company has never heard the term African-German. lol
You're right; they just call them "Africans".
Good or bad, the United States is one of the MOST sensitive countries out there when it comes to racial diversity (we're nowhere near where the Canadians are though). If you're of Egyptian heritage and your family has lived in France for ten generations, you're still an "Arab", and you always will be to them (God help you if you call an Egyptian living in the USA an "African-American", even though Egypt IS in Africa...). I'm not sure that I can type what the run of the mill African calls American blacks, so I won't.
In the mean time, I suggest that anyone wanting to add "color" to their layout look to European paint manufacturers. Humbrol has several types of "skintone" intended for the military miniature market. Carefully retinting the exposed skin areas isn't a big deal to do neatly.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Now, where can I find some of those dark skin figures?