marknewton wrote: Oh Good!!!Glad some one else is lost I thought it was just me !!!!I'm not surprised. One poster's insistence on using what I assume is theatrical terminology is rather confusing... Mark.
Oh Good!!!Glad some one else is lost I thought it was just me !!!!
Oh Good!!!
Glad some one else is lost
I thought it was just me !!!!
Actually, "Green room," is television terminology.
I recall defining things theatrically:
As for the well-known theatrical requirement to, "Double in brass," that's what happens when a heavy freight takes a pusher upgrade out of Haruyama.
Mark, I took a quick Google of your layout's prototype. I presume that garishly decorated MU car is the local equivalent of a school bus.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
exPalaceDog wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: The current discussion between about 4-5 posters is the idea to take a Layout Design element, and create a layout or piece of a layout based upon it. What they tentatively agreed upon is a small Mid-Western Agricultural town. The Old Mutt would suggest that the designs include the staging trackage needed to generate the traffic for the LDE, NOT just the LDE. Designing the needed staging is probably harder then doing the LDE. And frankly, the Old Dog is looking for ideals in rergard to staging.Have fun
SpaceMouse wrote: The current discussion between about 4-5 posters is the idea to take a Layout Design element, and create a layout or piece of a layout based upon it. What they tentatively agreed upon is a small Mid-Western Agricultural town.
The current discussion between about 4-5 posters is the idea to take a Layout Design element, and create a layout or piece of a layout based upon it. What they tentatively agreed upon is a small Mid-Western Agricultural town.
The Old Mutt would suggest that the designs include the staging trackage needed to generate the traffic for the LDE, NOT just the LDE. Designing the needed staging is probably harder then doing the LDE. And frankly, the Old Dog is looking for ideals in rergard to staging.
Have fun
Tough order. I can't imagine how to design a contest with such a feature. Staging is difficult for most people because they only consider it after they come up with a track plan.
Further, people tend to want layout space for visible trackage. When they give prime real estate to visible trackage, they are left trying to work the dregs into staging. In reality, staging is the easiest track-work to design.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Let's see if I can summarize.
Each would start from that premise and design a piece of a layout. The parameters have not been determined as to size limitation or as to the key features--passenger/freight station, team track, dairy, agricultural distribution, grain tower, etc.
What makes it hard to follow is that some of the suggestions vary from fanciful to abstract and everywhere in between, with some good solid ideas interlaced between.
Perhaps today, we can nail down some specifics.
vsmith wrote:Ya guys lost me about a page ago
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Have fun with your trains
Background, for the purposes of this post let's define some terms.
Actor - a physical set of railroad equipment. For example the local/accommodation passenger train
Stage - the part of the layout intended for viewing during an operating session. For example a "tank" town combination station area
Greenroom - the back stage area where the actors are held when not on stage and the supporting trackage
Role - the appearance of an actor on the stage. For example, the morning westbound local passenger train.
Observation, Since most modelers do not have unlimited funds, it is desirable to keep the number of actors down. In other words, it is desirable to have one actor play multiple roles during an operating session.
That leads to two requirements for staging;
One - most of the staging tracks need to be double ended. This allows the same actor to play the westbound morning and afternoon local passenger trains
Two - the staging needs to be connected to the stage in a manner that will allow an actor to enter from stage left or stage right. This will allow the same actor to play both the westbound and eastbound local passenger train (assuming they are not on stage at the same time.
Addition requirement, if a layout includes multiple stages such as stations, there should be enough track distance between the stations so that a train will have fully departed stage one before appearing at station two. Since the stations on any layout will be far closer then on a real railroad, one should be able to hold a train between stations for an appropriate length of time to simulate the distance.
After exchanging comments with Magnus on another thread, I'd like to throw an 8 x 20 container into the competition for next layout contest. Or maybe two contests, for the two standard lengths?
Just my . Other opinions are guaranteed to differ!
Texas Zepher wrote: exPalaceDog wrote: one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop.LDE - Mid-western to western (Ohio to Kansas) farming area whistle stop town. I could do that.I was just coming back to edit my message and following the old dog's theme, state Steam. but that still begs the steam era. I presume we can eliminate the origins era since Ohio to Kansas didn't have too many (none) railroads then. But that still leaves Vintage Steam, Classic Steam, Super Steam, and Transistion times.
exPalaceDog wrote: one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop.
If the Old Dog were running the show, it would suggest some time between say 1890 and 1940.
Texas Zepher wrote:Or for the generalists does it really matter if it is a specific reagion. There have to be "typical" agricultrual communities all across the country and across the ocean too. I would suppose foreign railroads have "typical" whistle stop railroad scenarios too.
Or for the generalists does it really matter if it is a specific reagion. There have to be "typical" agricultrual communities all across the country and across the ocean too. I would suppose foreign railroads have "typical" whistle stop railroad scenarios too.
Good point! The Old Hound was just thinking a condensed milk plant might be interesting. That could involve some station work for the passenger trains (milk reefers) as well as the way frieght. Maybe a cheese factory? A creamry? Feedmill? Small stock pen? Fertilizer dealer?
DigitalGriffin wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: exPalaceDog wrote: one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop.LDE - Mid-western to western (Ohio to Kansas) farming area whistle stop town. I could do that.This sounds like a lot of country scenery, and single line trackage with local spurs for grain industries and possibly town depot's depending on time period. Am I correct?Any time period?
Texas Zepher wrote: exPalaceDog wrote: one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop.LDE - Mid-western to western (Ohio to Kansas) farming area whistle stop town. I could do that.
This sounds like a lot of country scenery, and single line trackage with local spurs for grain industries and possibly town depot's depending on time period. Am I correct?
Any time period?
Probably correct.
Since the Old Dog mentioned a water tank, it probably be in the steam era.
But what might be more interesting is to include the staging trackage to show how one would develop adequate traffic to make the scene interesting.
DigitalGriffin wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: exPalaceDog wrote: one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop.LDE - Mid-western to western (Ohio to Kansas) farming area whistle stop town. I could do that.Any time period?
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
An interesting LDE might be modeling the track surrounding Frederick Maryland. A number of industries were all serviced on the same track.
Here's the different things that could be modeled from this one city and the surrounding area:
1) Traction. The preferred method of getting to work from one town to the next was traction. This would go from the heart of one outskirt town to the heart of Frederick.
http://www.emmitsburg.net/banner/editions/06/march/trolly_history.htm
2) Steel. In 1890 the Frederick Iron and Steel Company began operation. The train used the same tracks as the trolley! Located on the opposite side of the street a bit futher up was the scrap metal company. It was also serviced by rail.
http://www.heritage.umd.edu/CHRSWeb/AssociatedProjects/chidesterreport/Chapter%20VII.htm
3) Farming. The outskirts of Frederick was surrounded by many farming communities. Oddly enough Lime kiln furnaces were a large part of farming industry. There was one in Walkersville Maryland. The lime produced here was stored at a local grain silo repository to be used by farmers on their fields. The same grain respotory would then take grain to the local bakeries in Frederick.
http://www.co.frederick.md.us/index.asp?NID=1891
Fountain Rock Kiln-Picture from the top of the hill. Lime was unloaded at the kiln base and loaded onto boxcars/flats.
4) Freight traffic - serviced by the Ma & Pa
I can provide additional photos and information about this area including placement of the original tracks and industry since I grew up there.
This is just a quick thought, but one could get a good deal of action out of a small mid-western combination station (passenger and freight) and water stop. Some items that might be included could be;
1) Passenger platform
2) Freight platform with siding (LCL)
3) Mail crane
4) Train order signal
5) Team Track
6) Grain elevator/s
7) Other farming type industries (maybe farmers' supply complex)
8) General industries (like gasoline wholesaler or builders' supply complex)
9) Water tower
Requiring all trains to stop and take water, plus the station work, plus the wqy freight switch could generate a good deal of action. Adding a short siding for meets and passes could add even more interest.
If you were to break a layout into scenes with each scene having a key feature, that key feature would be an LDE.
Coal mine
Two railroads crossing
tressel bridge
yard
interchange track
industry
town
The layout would then be a string of LDE's.
SpaceMouse wrote: If the Layout Design Element appeals to you then let's do it.
If the Layout Design Element appeals to you then let's do it.
What is a Layout Design Element ?
If the Layout Design Element appeals to you then let's do it. However, it is not one that appeals to me as much as many. As you guys know, I did an experiment last year of seeing if I could design a layout based on a single LDE, did a lot of research and am now building it.
But it was a lot of work, first in locating it, then in researching. Now that I am building it, the research is even more intense--I'm stuck now because I need to know what the streets were made of. The local historical society has agreed to let me look in their archives for photos, but I have to do it during work hours.
So my next questions are:
Are we doing a prototype LDE or can it be freelance--or somewhere in between. My LED was pretty close to the original. How much leeway do we have?
Is it a stand alone layout or is it part of a bigger layout?
BTW: This exercise in designing a layout from a single LDE was very enlightening. You/we will get a lot out of it.
fwright wrote: I would think the LDE should be open to get a reasonable variety in the submissions.But it boils down to the type of contest - picking the best from a group of similar designs that were more or less constrained to be that way? Or, using minimum constraints to gain a wide variety of ideas?My personal preference is for the latter (which is what this last contest was), and I believe you will get more submissions that way.
I would think the LDE should be open to get a reasonable variety in the submissions.
But it boils down to the type of contest - picking the best from a group of similar designs that were more or less constrained to be that way? Or, using minimum constraints to gain a wide variety of ideas?
My personal preference is for the latter (which is what this last contest was), and I believe you will get more submissions that way.
In my opinion, Fred hit the nail squarely on the head. It depends a lot on what you want to accomplish. I would also like to see a lot of different designs - I like both apples and oranges.
But I also agree with TZ - it is less meaningful to try to pick the "best" of two designs when the designers are not at all trying to accomplish the same thing.
So how about letting the parameters be fairly free, but downplay the voting/winning part ?
Just try to generate a lot of different ideas that can be discussed and commented upon.
Grin, Stein
Texas Zepher wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Are you guys talking about a specific LDE, like a coal mine or a interchange yard or are you talking about a non-specific LED of our choosing?A pre-chosen specific one. Otherwise you end up in the apples-oranges scenario again.
SpaceMouse wrote:Are you guys talking about a specific LDE, like a coal mine or a interchange yard or are you talking about a non-specific LED of our choosing?
Not to throw an egg into the fan, but unless your pre-chosen LDE is one that appeals to a wide spectrum of modelers, the entry list will be rather sparse! As for me, if your map isn't labeled in Kanji, count me out.
OTOH, if I'm given a choice, I'd probably end up choosing something from the near side of the Pacific. (I thought of the Six Companies too late for this past contest.)
just my thoughts
Fred W
Mmm - if you want to be able to compare and contrast different solutions to the same design challenge, I would pick a _specific_ subject for each LDE thread : each thread starts with a specific location and/or type industry, probably an era, maybe some upper bound on size.
And focus is not on voting, but on providing constructive feedback on strengths and weaknesses of the various suggestions.
Seems to me that would be the most useful format for such an animal.
YMMV
chadw wrote: I like the LDE idea. Fast to plan and easy to judge as there isn't much to look at. I think they would also be better for discussing afterwards since you can more thouroughly analyze how a small area operates than a whole layout. They also may be more helpful for people looking for trackplans as few people would have the exact shape room or want exactly the same layout. Looking through LDE's would let them pick their favorites and combine them into a layout that fits their space.Chad
I like the LDE idea. Fast to plan and easy to judge as there isn't much to look at. I think they would also be better for discussing afterwards since you can more thouroughly analyze how a small area operates than a whole layout. They also may be more helpful for people looking for trackplans as few people would have the exact shape room or want exactly the same layout. Looking through LDE's would let them pick their favorites and combine them into a layout that fits their space.
Chad
I don't think an LDE should be size limited. But someone who can come up with a more compact track design for the same industry, without sacrificing scenery, deserves a higher score.