Gang: I have a 14 X 14 basement trainroom to finish before I begin the layout. I have 8 ft ceilings with ductwork. I plan to use suspended ceiling but do not have inclination to do it myself. One commercial estimate is $1300. Since this is significant expense for just the ceiling, is it a wise choice to use a suspended ceiling? The rafters are exposed with insulation. What do you suggest? regards, Andy
well, personely, I helped my father put one in when I was about 12 and take it out again a few years ago. Personly, once you get the first little bit done, they are not that hard to do. We did a 20x20 sunroom in about 3 years
rtprimus wrote:We did a 20x20 sunroom in about 3 years
Did you mean HOURS not YEARS?
It's really not as bad as you might think. Renting a spinning laser level to put a line around the room in order to get the L on level and straight is not a bad idea...assuming you can setup and use the laser. I would not drywall it if you have any plumbing in that ceiling or if there are any electrical junctions boxes as they must have access. A little pre-planning goes a long way too.
The layout part of my basement came with an old fashiond suspended ceiling consisting of white paper-like material bonded to yellow spun glass (awful stuff to deal with), while the workbench area does not have a suspended ceiling. One aspect that is very different, is that the area with the suspended ceiling is more bright and well lit even though both areas have similar flourescent lighting. The dark joists seem to suck up light. I have been in basements where the joists and underflooring are painted white and that really helps. But that's a lot of work.
While I am glad my basement came with a suspended ceiling, in some ways I wish I could have been involved with the intallation. The placement of various pipes and phone lines and electrical conduit is anarchy and at the least I would have liked to have made a thorough diagram of everything before the ceiling was installed -- if not actually chaning the locations of things.
You probably already know this, but if you are at this stage of the planning process, now is also the time to be thinking about how much lighting you need. Lighting is like staging -- you probably need more than you think.
Dave Nelson
andy,
i've been wiring my basement as well, several electricians at work told me to use 15 amp for lighting circuits, becuase of the smaller wire in the lighting fixtures and if your using 14 awg for your switch loops, risk of fire with 20 amp. you can put 20 amp for receptacles as long as it's 12awg and you've got rated 20 amp receptacles.
now, i'm a drywall man and maybe you or someone you know, knows something i don't but i talked to several electricians and another one is helping me out on my panel work and this is what i've been told.
good luck,
andychandler wrote:thanks very much for all of your input. I will likely decide to do this myself, based on your comments. I have two extra 20A circuits already place in the room, one for outlets and one for lighting. Can I mount track-lights directly to the panels or do I need to hang these seperately to the joists and throught the panels? You are all very gracious. Regards, andy chandler
Andy,
You mention that you have 8' to the joists. Now does the ductwork run up in between the bays of the floor joists? Is the trunk (main duct) parralell the beam in the trainroom side, or are you lucky enough that it is out of the room on the other side of the girder? Even though the joists/ ceiling is taller than most you still want to keep as much height as possible. It may be nec. to box or soffit the duct or trunk rather than drop the entire ceiling that much. For lighting, tracks are great, but too many heads will produce some serious heat (zenon bulbs are cooler than halogen). It still would be good to keep fluorecents for room/ work lights. Using fluorecent 2x2 or 2x4 fixtures will require a bare min of a 4 1/2" to 5" drop to the main grids. This still allows room for any future fixture removal for repair or replacement.
Other methods of lighting and dropping the ceiling, especially if you have to soffit for the trunk, is to drop a lighting facia following your layout. (Assume it is an around the wall in such a good sized room). A lighting facia will allow you various choices on the layout lighting. The dropped ceiling can then be wall angled and dropped for the remaining center portion of the room. If you really need to keep as much height as possible for the ceiling, fluorecent fixtures can be mounted recessed within the floor joists and use the tracslucent lighting panels in the grid below them.
The recent thread on basement lighting and other questions have probably already been answered for you. These ceilings are not that difficult. Setting up a 2x2 grid is a little easier and the smaller panels are more manageable in tight spots.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I just was investigating this myself. seems there is a T bar clip. Use this item to clip on the T rails of your drop ceiling. then you attach the track rails to the clip. The electrical box will need to supported by the drop ceiling rails, Home Depot has the brackets to support the box, and they clip into the T rail of the drop ceiling. Cut the panel only for the box mounting. If it seems unsupported, use additional hanger wires, hope this helps.... I can supply pictures if you want, this is my next layout project....
aav wrote: i've been wiring my basement as well, several electricians at work told me to use 15 amp for lighting circuits, becuase of the smaller wire in the lighting fixtures and if your using 14 awg for your switch loops, risk of fire with 20 amp. you can put 20 amp for receptacles as long as it's 12awg and you've got rated 20 amp receptacles.
aav:
Well, you basically use 14 awg copper for 15A branch circuits and 12 awg for 20A branch circuits. You are allowed to put general lighting on either. 15A circuits may only have 15A receptacles. 20A circuits may have either 15A or 20A receptacles. What you do not want is a 20A receptacle installed in a 15A circuit, or a 20A circuit wired with 14 awg.
You are permitted to use larger gauges, too. If a circuit is very long, this may well be advisable to avoid excessive voltage drop. I don't have room to discuss that here. In fact, there's so much more to discuss that I'd recommend a good book first. Get a copy of the NEC pocket guide, and a copy of Practical Electrical Wiring, and read them first.
Light fixtures may have their own feeders already installed from the factory, and these may be of different sizes, which do not necessarily have to match what is in the branch circuit. Again, you will need to refer to the above books or similar ones.
I generally like 14 AWG for 15A lighting circuits, simply because the smaller wire is easier to work with, and boxes can be slightly smaller*. If lighting a basement, I would prefer to have 2 20A circuits, each with half the lights and half the receptacles, in addition to any special-purpose circuits prescribed by code like the laundry and furnace, and dedicated receptacle circuits you may want for the high-demand power tools, which tend to dim the lights annoyingly. This way, you still have half the lights available if one circuit trips, and don't end up in a situation where the table saw is screaming away, plugged into the still-working receptacles, but all the lights are off. Not nice.
A careful DIY'er can do very well, but do start with a good general book and perhaps some practice on easy jobs.
*The issue is more with box capacity than box size. Ceiling pans are very handy, particularly in old work, but are typically 6 cu in. This is enough to permit a single 14/2 with ground, but not a 12/2. Similar issues occur with three-way circuits and 3 1/2" deep single-gang boxes.
Autobus Prime wrote: aav wrote: i've been wiring my basement as well, several electricians at work told me to use 15 amp for lighting circuits, becuase of the smaller wire in the lighting fixtures and if your using 14 awg for your switch loops, risk of fire with 20 amp. you can put 20 amp for receptacles as long as it's 12awg and you've got rated 20 amp receptacles. aav:Well, you basically use 14 awg copper for 15A branch circuits and 12 awg for 20A branch circuits. You are allowed to put general lighting on either. 15A circuits may only have 15A receptacles. 20A circuits may have either 15A or 20A receptacles. What you do not want is a 20A receptacle installed in a 15A circuit, or a 20A circuit wired with 14 awg.
Autobus, thanks for the insight, like i said i'm a drywall man, i just noticed in Andy's post that something seemed different than what was recommended to me, just thought he might want to look into it unless he already knew better. the electrician helping me has been commercially and residentially qualified for 30+ yrs. or so, so i just follow his lead with things and his suggestions since he knows all the codes and everything. there was plenty of room to add several new circuits for the washer, lights, workshop, layout, and some things upstairs too.
Loathar, i use the side terminals on the receptacles , never had a problem with it....
well anyway, i hope Andy is not as lazy as i am and can get his area ready sooner than i do.
loathar wrote: Autobus Prime wrote: aav wrote: i've been wiring my basement as well, several electricians at work told me to use 15 amp for lighting circuits, becuase of the smaller wire in the lighting fixtures and if your using 14 awg for your switch loops, risk of fire with 20 amp. you can put 20 amp for receptacles as long as it's 12awg and you've got rated 20 amp receptacles. aav:Well, you basically use 14 awg copper for 15A branch circuits and 12 awg for 20A branch circuits. You are allowed to put general lighting on either. 15A circuits may only have 15A receptacles. 20A circuits may have either 15A or 20A receptacles. What you do not want is a 20A receptacle installed in a 15A circuit, or a 20A circuit wired with 14 awg. You will have a hard time getting 12 gauge wire to fit into the quick connects on the back of a 15amp receptical. The holes are only big enough for 14 gauge. You either have to drill the holes bigger or use the screw side terminals. (which is a pain in the ***)
L:
In fact, there's no way to use 12 AWG with the backstabs any more. Drilling them out voids the UL listing. I hate backstabs, and never use them, which is why I didn't mention this. They tend to lose their grip as they age. The receptacles, that is. Not the users.
I admit that it takes a little practice to make good screw connections - people tend to wrap too little wire, or to leave too much exposed; wire should wrap ~3/4 of a turn and the insulation should end very near the screw. However, I think the backstabs are a bigger pain in the ***, because of their contact problem. My refrigerator receptacle was wired this way, and I was quite amazed it was still making contact when I replaced it, because the wires pulled out really easily.
Screws are the way to go. Leave extra wire and strip off 2 1/2". Bend it back a bit, then clockwise around the screw, then trim the long end with dikes and squeeze the loop together with pliers. It's really easy to do after you practice a little. If you only have a short stripped piece to work with, and can't pull in more slack (as is not uncommon), use the looper hole on your wire stripper.
If you still want to avoid making loops, you can spend a little more and buy higher-grade receptacles with backwired screw terminals. These have a floating clamp that is tightened on to the wire by the side screw. Very reliable, and can take 12 AWG (and also 10 AWG IIRC, if you are using that to reduce voltage drop)
I don't mean to disparage your electrician friend at all. I'm not an electrician at all. I'm a DIYer with a reasonable amount of practice and plenty of respect for codes. His advice was not bad at all, and it certainly wasn't against any code; it was more a question of personal preference. The NEC contains a "tap rule" which, for example, allows the pigtails from a ceiling lamp to be sized differently, and often much smaller than the branch circuit. Some people feel uncomfortable with this, and that's very understandable. However, in practice, other conditions given in the rule keep this from being hazardous.
http://mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/FeederSecondaryTapRules~20020326.htm
Okay, I stop now...