BlueHillsCPR wrote: bearman wrote:I have a Digitrax Zephyr and I considered first how many locos I wanted to run, then expandability and, of course, cost. My guess is that you are probably looking at a 5 amp system, so you may want to start your journey into DCC there.Hi Bearman, I have looked at the Zephyr too but I am concerned that if I opt for economy I will end up missing features available with the Empire Builder. What are you running with your Zephyr and do you have any feature regrets with it? Thanks in advance.
bearman wrote:I have a Digitrax Zephyr and I considered first how many locos I wanted to run, then expandability and, of course, cost. My guess is that you are probably looking at a 5 amp system, so you may want to start your journey into DCC there.
Hi Bearman,
I have looked at the Zephyr too but I am concerned that if I opt for economy I will end up missing features available with the Empire Builder. What are you running with your Zephyr and do you have any feature regrets with it? Thanks in advance.
I think CSX Robert has a very good answer to your question. I am running no more than 2 locos and 2 switchers and I will be using the "jump" feature until I get two mre throttles.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I started with an older Digitrax Empire Builder because it had 5 Amps of power. I found it difficult to use and it can't read back decoder information. I can't recommend it. (Now I only use it as an extra booster on my layout.)
Then I got a Digitrax Zephyr and found it had enough power to run 6 of more sound equipped HO locos. I liked it because it uses a separate programming track. It is user friendly and easy to re-set and reads back CV's from decoders.
Now I have the 5 Amp Chief and it does it all! ....Better! And it handles more loco address's which can be important when you have a large number of locomotives.
Actually, I still use all of these on my layout since I have expanded. Digitrax may not be quite as user friendly as some others, but they have expansion modules and accessarys second to none.
A friend of mine has an MRC that I have found to be extremely easy to use. However, it is a bit limited as far as expansion possibilities.
This is just my humble opinion and I have no experience with any other brands of DCC.
-Bill
Everyone has their favorite system - I suggest using what is used most locally (club/hobby shop) if you ever need help. Also, try different systems to see what you like.
Lastly, you can build you own system as well. Both Lenz and Digitrax is well documented and there are some nice systems you can build yourself. For example - the NanoX is a self made Lenz system which is cheap and simple to build and has lots of features (most better than the Zephyr). Best of all, you can build a booster to your power requirements.
Here's info on the NanoX:
NanoX is a simple DCC command station, without pretensions, that includes XpressNet bus v.3 and can control: - 16 locomotives simultaneously in the addresses 1 to 9999 - 1024 turnouts and signals - 31 XpressNet throttles or devices (Lokmaus, SimpleMaus, XbusTCO,...) - Programming and reading DCC decoders in Direct, Paged, Register and PoM modes. - With a 1,2A Booster including protection against short circuits - Supports 14, 28 and 128 speed steps, functions FL and F1 to F12 for every locomotive
It only needs a PIC 16F628, a driver MAX485, six transistors and a few components more.
This site has more info -
http://usuaris.tinet.cat/fmco/home_en.htm
The author also has info on throttles, boosters, and computer interfaces.
You don't have to be limited to a pre-made system.
I started with a friend's DT400 throttle on a Digitrax Empire builder.
I liked the DT400 very much. The Zephyr didnt have it and the SEB didnt have read CV ability sooo the Chief is it for me. I have yet to run into a system limitation or error. However I do learn that other errors are usually my own errors.
I can still upgrade the Chief into radio when the time is ready and always add onto the loconet. That is something I understand more and more every month.
BlueHillsCPR wrote:...Hi Bearman, I have looked at the Zephyr too but I am concerned that if I opt for economy I will end up missing features available with the Empire Builder. What are you running with your Zephyr and do you have any feature regrets with it? Thanks in advance.
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:The CV issue isn't as bad as it seems, nor as good as you might hope for, but in the end it makes sense.There is a standard that covers most of the 'everyday' CVs. There are addition standard CVs that are optional in any particular decoder, they are for features that do not have to implemented, but if they are, the CVs are defined in the standard. Then there are CVs that are set aside for the decoder manufacturers to use as they choose. This allows for most of the sound programming, and also allows for the addition of features that might be unique for an application.The easiest way to deal with these is by using a program like Decoder Pro, which can read the ID of the decoder, and then use a database on the computer to know what CVs are avaiable in that decoder, and what they do. Since it is 'only' software, it is possible to keep the database at least somewhat up to date as new decoders come out. This makes having a command station with a computer interface a good thing, especially is you plan to go beyond basic decoder programming.
The CV issue isn't as bad as it seems, nor as good as you might hope for, but in the end it makes sense.
There is a standard that covers most of the 'everyday' CVs. There are addition standard CVs that are optional in any particular decoder, they are for features that do not have to implemented, but if they are, the CVs are defined in the standard. Then there are CVs that are set aside for the decoder manufacturers to use as they choose. This allows for most of the sound programming, and also allows for the addition of features that might be unique for an application.
The easiest way to deal with these is by using a program like Decoder Pro, which can read the ID of the decoder, and then use a database on the computer to know what CVs are avaiable in that decoder, and what they do. Since it is 'only' software, it is possible to keep the database at least somewhat up to date as new decoders come out. This makes having a command station with a computer interface a good thing, especially is you plan to go beyond basic decoder programming.
Thanks for that information! I think I will have to look into this Decoder Pro when I take the DCC plunge. A computer interface to the command station is probably a must have feature for me in the long run.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
It's my understanding that the basic CV's associated with moving the engine around the layout were standardized by the NMRA in the original DCC specs.
However, the CV's for sound were not fully standardized. Sound appears to have evolved faster than the NMRA was able to react to it.
The result is, perhaps, more confusing than it should have been.
Mark Gosdin
FV is right in a sense that some of the common function button capabilities (F0-F12) are different from one manufacturer to another.
For example, F2 or "2" on my BLI (QSI) and Trix (Loksound) Mikes are exactly the same - i.e. it activates the horn. However, F1 or "1" on my BLI Mike toggles the bell, while F1 or "1" on my Trix Mike turns sound on and off. (Mute is F8 or "8" on QSI decoders.)
Also, the QSI decoder allows you to shut your locomotive down into three levels of "sleep". The Loksound decoder does NOT have that feature.
Now, even though there are differences between manufacturers as far as functions are concerned, CVs (or configuration variables) are standardized under NMRA rules. The only exceptions would probably be the CVs that operate/manipulate the function button functions.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
KingConrail76 wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: Also DCC has different function keys. Maybe F2 for a bell. Some manufactors will put in thier OWN system to control the engine.Even worse, the CV (Configuration Variables) aka switches inside the Decoder's brain are different from one maker to another. If I was to say configure CV # something to make a bell choice something for a QSI engine... it will NOT be the same value or something for another MANUFACTER of a different engine... like MRC.Until DCC is truly Common across ALL of the software and the controls UP TO the limits of the hardware used... we will never enjoy peace from the noise of the tower of Babel.Really??? I thought CV#'s were standardized under NMRA Recommended Practices? I mean, I know some manufaturers do not use all CV's that are available, but I thought that CV# such-and-such was always that particular variable. Like say CV#1 is always the Loco's address, and CV#3 is always speed increase momentum, and CV#19 is always Consist Address...No??
Falls Valley RR wrote: Also DCC has different function keys. Maybe F2 for a bell. Some manufactors will put in thier OWN system to control the engine.Even worse, the CV (Configuration Variables) aka switches inside the Decoder's brain are different from one maker to another. If I was to say configure CV # something to make a bell choice something for a QSI engine... it will NOT be the same value or something for another MANUFACTER of a different engine... like MRC.Until DCC is truly Common across ALL of the software and the controls UP TO the limits of the hardware used... we will never enjoy peace from the noise of the tower of Babel.
Also DCC has different function keys. Maybe F2 for a bell. Some manufactors will put in thier OWN system to control the engine.
Even worse, the CV (Configuration Variables) aka switches inside the Decoder's brain are different from one maker to another. If I was to say configure CV # something to make a bell choice something for a QSI engine... it will NOT be the same value or something for another MANUFACTER of a different engine... like MRC.
Until DCC is truly Common across ALL of the software and the controls UP TO the limits of the hardware used... we will never enjoy peace from the noise of the tower of Babel.
Really??? I thought CV#'s were standardized under NMRA Recommended Practices? I mean, I know some manufaturers do not use all CV's that are available, but I thought that CV# such-and-such was always that particular variable. Like say CV#1 is always the Loco's address, and CV#3 is always speed increase momentum, and CV#19 is always Consist Address...No??
Uh, sort of.
I think I bit off more than I can chew here.
Let me try to explain.
My MRC 4-4-0 had CV numbers on their own chart. It was a rather small chart... maybe 20 CV's each with options. Yes there was the start voltage mid etc.
Now park the QSI engine and look at that manual. Downloaded as a PDF file off the internet for the engine presents ALL of the CV's PLUS Bit mapping etc etc etc etc etc.
Kinda like being told that this button or number is for the bell on one engine and totally something else with another manufacter's engine because they felt like writing these values thier own way and not bothering to make sure that a value is the same across the entire hobby range of decoders.
Maybe SOME CV's are the same because they have to be.. but it will be very nice to see ALL CV's the same across the board.
I'll shut up now before I confirm my total lack of understanding.
There is no "right" DCC system for everyone. If there were, there would be no choices.
How big is your layout, or how big is your planned layout? How many engines do you plan to run at a time? Will you be running multi-engine consists? Will you be running sound engines, or their quiet bretheren?
How big are your fingers? (That's a real question, and it was the deciding factor for yours "fat-fingered" truly.)
The good news is that all of today's DCC systems are pretty good. The world has moved away from the "starter" systems of the past, whose biggest disadvantage was that they were not upgradeable. The NMRA standards assure you that any decoder (the part in the engine) will work with any system (the part that generates the commands.) However, the components of the systems are not compatable, so you can't, for example, use a Lenz throttle with a Digitrax base station.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Avenger,
As JK already stated, choosing a DCC system is a personal choice. What is "best" for one person may not be the "best" for another person because of preferences and needs.
There are a number of good DCC manufacturers and systems out there. Like buying a car, the best thing to do when picking a DCC system is to be able to test drive one yourself so that YOU get an idea how it feels and what it can and can not do.
However, before you do that, a good thing to do is to write down what your current layout needs and wants are and what you think they might be (future expansion). For example:
Decoders are designed to work with any DCC system. Therefore, if you have a Digitrax DCC system, you are not required or obligated to ONLY use Digitrax decoders with it. For me, Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and TCS are all excellent choices for motion decoders.
Avenger, if you are interested in taking a virtual look at the NCE Power Cab, click on my web link at the bottom of this post and go to my review page. It will take you to an initial review that I wrote on the Power Cab, after it first came out in February 2006.
It includes pictures as well and comments and gives my intial impressions of the Power Cab and it's features. There's also a review of the NCE CAB-04p throttle and the their Smart Booster. Even if the review helps you determine that the Power Cab is not a good fit for your current needs or preferences, then it will have accomplished it's purpose.
Anyhow, hope that helps...
I'm in the process of wrapping my head around DCC too. As was mentioned look closely at available features and decide what you must have. Determine what you can live without and then proceed from there.
I have become interested in the Digitrax system but I hesitate to opt for the entry level system because I feel like I want all the bells and whistles. I'm starting to think that the extra $$ to go to the next level might be worth it.
I was looking at the MRC Prodigy systems, but I have not heard a lot of positive comments on the MRC DCC stuff yet.
Anyway, I'm still researching and looking at products and features. My son and I are just starting his HO 4X8 which will be DC. When it is complete I can start seriously looking at what I want to use on my proposed "around the room" layout in the next room.
DCC is a journey. It is a language of numbers that flow as signals to and from your decoder equippted engines. It is sort of like the Scarecrow going to see Oz for a brain and recieving a doctorate without understanding how and why DCC works.
If you want to run one engine, DCC is simple. Enter address 03 and away you go!
Now two engines or more, you just got complicated. Cab numbers, numbers for different settings etc.
DCC is a pleasure, but if you lack grasp of the system you are working it will be Dante's Hell descending into lower and lower levels of frusteration and stress.
Keep in mind, people are stressed when they learn new things.
Look at the information that is out there about DCC. If you read one of the downloadable PDF's like a DCC manual from one of the manufactors; it might sound like gibberish. Take time to learn the different terms in the DCC world and understand what they mean.
It still takes two wires to run a whole railroad on DCC. It's the learning that is the tribulation.
Your question, along with "what is the meaning of life?", is a source of much debate and discussion of this forum. Start by a doing a search and you will find numerous threads debating the 'best' dcc system. There is a good tutorial/discussion by Joe Fugate that is worth finding and reading. Also, I would recommend so of the DCC comparisons and articles on Tony's Tain Exchange's website. They are very informative and non-biased.
"Best" is a subjective term open to numerous interpretations and will vary depending on the persons needs, abilities and resources. Without going into specifics about any particular system, my first recommendation is to make a list of "gotta haves", "wanna haves" and "don't need to haves". My second recommendation is to go to the various manufacturers' websites and download and read the system manuals for the ones you are interested in. The manual is what you will have to rely on to get you up and running. DO NOT fall into the trap of thinking you can rely on your local hobby shop, other area modelers or the manufacturers' help line. At 9pm there's no one there to answer the phone. You should be able read and understand the manual and what it is telling you to do, at least the basic, without having the complete system in front of you. Read and do your homework now so that you don;t experience buyer's remorse later.
My father and I aare going to make the with from DC to DCC. We will be starting afresh on a new layou we are going to make. If anyone could recomend the BESt MIDDLE/UPPER LEVEL DCC equipment that would be great. I mean, decoders and the controller software.
Avenger