Signal and Detection units

[VickyB]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you so much for your comments earlier on the start of my project for the Richfield layout in N scale. I need to add Signals and detection units... any ideas how I can do that and make everything work together?

Also, I see these MR clubs have these fancy looking boards with lights on them and the basic track layout printed/painted on (I am assuming this works with the block detection as well).

any idea where I can read about what to BUY and how to set it all up? My local hobby store does not have much experience on what I need to BUY (specifically .. BUY) and how to make the block detection system work with signals and the fancy looking board with the RED and GREEN lights on them (which I assume mean the block is occupied or free).

any help would be appreciated as I really want to read up on exactly how to do this whole thing.

Regards

Vicky

[fwright]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you so much for your comments earlier on the start of my project for the Richfield layout in N scale. I need to add Signals and detection units... any ideas how I can do that and make everything work together?

Also, I see these MR clubs have these fancy looking boards with lights on them and the basic track layout printed/painted on (I am assuming this works with the block detection as well).

any idea where I can read about what to BUY and how to set it all up? My local hobby store does not have much experience on what I need to BUY (specifically .. BUY) and how to make the block detection system work with signals and the fancy looking board with the RED and GREEN lights on them (which I assume mean the block is occupied or free).

any help would be appreciated as I really want to read up on exactly how to do this whole thing.

Regards

Vicky

Vicky

This is not meant to demean your choices, but...  Working in IT and electronics, we get used to the idea of controlling things from a panel, board, or screen of some sort.  But is that really how you prefer to operate?

It has taken me several years of implementing command centers for government to realize that the last thing I want on my model railroad is to run the thing from the bridge of the Starship Enterprise.  I would much rather be walking along the path of my locomotive, playing the role of train engineer, conductor, and brakeman combined.  I figure out any switching moves needed by my train, make the locomotive move appropriately, throw the turnouts as needed, and make any couplings/uncouplings.  If there is to be any signaling, it should be actual signals along the right of way, indicating status of track ahead.  So in my case, all controls need to be local, located on the fascia.  Indicator lights are unnecessary - I can see how the turnouts are lined.

I have also come to realize that DCC supports my planned mode of operation better than DC, but merely because I don't have to worry about block occupany even when I'm operating alone - which is most of the time.  Which brings up the 2nd point - if you have DCC and are operating alone (or only 2 of you), why are you worrying about block occupancy?  It is only when you have multiple operators and trains going simultaneously that you need that level of coordination.  And if you do need that level of coordination between operators/trains, you are probably going to need a full-time dispatcher to keep it coordinated.  Very few of us have the layouts and/or people for that level of operations.

On the other hand, if you prefer to operate by sitting back and watching multiple trains run, then you are on the right track.

My bottom line:  the control systems should be fitted to the concept of operations, not the other way around.

yours in command and control

Fred W 

[VickyB]

Hello Fred,

Thanks so much for this message. Very well written and it did make me think about it. All along I was looking at operating the whole thing from a command post but you have given me an entirely new perspective to think about (which I didnt see earlier) and you have shown that it DEFINITELY has its values. I am now seriously considering getting rid of the idea of controlling my switches through DCC and operate them manually wherever possible. I have to admit that after reading your message I see a whole new charm in operating MR's in a more interactive manner than sitting in a chair and flicking switches.

thanks SO much once again for this very valuable insight

Vicky

[60YOKID]

Fred has some good points to consider.  Each of us seems to want something a little bit different, somthing a little more customized.  Since I like many things automated, I wanted a system that will accomodate computerized operation eventually.

I am using a master control center for all switches.  However, I have found some locations on my layout that I prefer to walk over to, so I can operate it from nearby.  Therefore, I will have two or three small control panels with duplicate controls for this purpose. 

I operate alone and run 2 to 6 trains at once on 300 feet of mainline.  I have 14 signal blocks and use Digitrax equipment for block and switch control.  I don't like using a handheld for switch control very well, so I use the panel switches most of the time. 

There are literally hundreds of ways to go about all of this.  When you decide what you want to control, and how and where you want to control it, then you can start looking at the various specific hardware items available to accomplish the task.  But until you have it pretty clear exactly what you want, don't even buy any toggle switches.

There is some good reading in the Digitrax books and on their website.  There are many other good books on DCC too. Try a search on this forum for various terms.  I would look some of them up for you except I am up late and getting tired out right now.

Have a good holiday!

-Bill 

[HHPATH56]

Hi VickyB,

You have to remember that those "fancy" boards are usually Model Railroad Club layouts, where a dispacher may be in a separate room,(like on real railroads.) I happen to have (after 7 years of planned expansion), an around the room HO layout, with 240 yds. of track, 96 electric probe controlled turnouts, 4 reverse loops and 3 wyes, divided between 4 Power Districts.  With that many turnouts to control, it made more sense for each of the 4 engineers, or (just myself) to have the numbered turnouts on 4 boards, with each operator clicking on the corresponding numbered tabs on a 24 double pin terminal, in visual contact with his Power District, as is shown in the enclosed picture.  Signals, (to be installed later), will then be seen by the operator, and he will operate the trains in his District, accordngly. Every 3yds of track on my layout has a circuit breaker, with a "rear car tail light to indicate where the short is located.  I can either allow the mainlines to operate continuously, or can shut down all but one Power District by the use of 4 toggle switches.

 

 

[1948PRR]

I've been researching signaling systems for a few years, and I must say, the more I learn, the more there is to learn. This can be a very complicated area, and the market truly is emerging as we speak. Most clubs I have seen have a custom built signal system, where a resident electronics guru member has used TTL logic chips to build one from scratch. There are a few mom and pop manufacturers of board based componants, such as Integrated Signal systems, WS Ataras, and others. Just this past year, Atlas started releasing a DC only signal system.

Based on my rough calculations, Ive come up with a cost of approximately 15 dollars times three areas per block. 1, a block detector, 2, a signal controller, and 3, the actual signal. That's $45 per block, and doesn't count seperate power boosters to isolate every block, if using DCC. Most block betectors and signal controllers also come in multiples of 4, 16, or 20, built on the same board to save costs. Some DCC systems like Digitrax, are also able to funtion as part of the system (they have a neat system in the works, too).

Block ocupancy and diverging route geomerty as applied to aspect display for muliple signals is potentially a discipline of it's own. I suggest doing as much research as you can on this and the various system options. It's tedious and very technical, but you'll certainly get an education!

Then you'll get another one on applying Railroad signaling practices.

As far as turnout control, I'm approaching this from a prototype angle. I'll operate the interlocking type areas such as crossovers and interchanges, with remote buttors located near a model of the tower and operate spurs and sidings with manual ground throws. I think I'll operate yard ladders with manual cables, tied to targets to indicate position.

Just my 2 cents.

[Anonymous]

I find myself in agreement with Fred W - I like to tend to things myself. One difference, tho, is that I plan to have some facia lights for turnouts, just as a fail-safe to remind me which way they are thrown.

My envisioned system (I have 99% of the trackwork done, DCC installed, and trains running) are functioning signals at track level, but also some kind of master panel overhead that will show block occupancy at a glance. I operate 2-3 trains alone and avoiding collisions and arranging meets and passes can get a bit confusing. I've had a few "cornfield meets" already and I think a master panel on one wall (I have a 12 x 12 N scale layout) might be helpful.

As others have said, figure out how you want to operate, then design the system to meet those needs.

Mike Tennent

[VickyB]

I was at my local hobby shop yesterday and discovered a company called Circuitron that basically automates this entire system (for those that are interested). I personally dont think I am going to go for this level of automation but its interesting. http://www.circuitron.com

Look for their online catalogue (link off the main page)

[Edmunds]

I would like to agree - very well written, Fred :).

Cost analysis by 1948PRR is probably counting low (at least for Europe), but has nothing to do with a booster per block - you would not need that.

With that said, I have invested in a complete signaling, detecting and PC connection on my 4x8 HO layout (becoming a peninsula of the larger future layout as we speak).

At first, something that people have not mentioned so far here, is that software can do the signaling and switching bits for you, so you can actually enjoy being that engineer of the train(-s) even when alone. Running the trains completely automatically is probably something for exhibitions or family christmas party and true, I do not find that much fun either. Not anymore. Still, I cannot imagine an operating session with myself and only or one friend on a conventional controls without a dispatcher even on a small layout like mine. And certainly not on what it has become.

I'm using Romotion (down-scaled version of TrainController) software, which does all of the signals and turnouts for me, while I walk around with a throttle selecting the right locomotive to run according to the schedule.

I'm using Roco hardware, since that looked like offering all the components I would need for train tracking and signaling and the tight integration with the software was also important for me.

I'm happy with my solution and I'm thus confident in the being the right thing for the expansion of the layout in the years to come.

Hope this helps.
Happy New Year, everybody!

/Edmunds