It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Tgindy, thanks for the links! wow, i'm very impressed by the layouts some of you guys are working on!! I'm glad i finally started reading/posting on the forums, you guys have been a great help so far, and i really enjoy checking posts to see peoples work, and the advice you guys have offered. Since posting, i have now gone back to the drawing board, trying to gain a larger radius, while still reaching my objective. I'm hoping...keeping my fingers crossed!! thanks again.
EDIT: i exploring/ looking into an elevator, trying to re-arrange/mirroring the layout levels to make sure the train is travelling the right direction. there are some good benefits to the elevator
the good:
I gain alot more space
I can actually get an extra few feet of model space on each level
the bad:
it would eliminate the length of my mainline run, which is somthing good the helix would do for me, make the run from level 1 to level 4 seem longer.
the good do out weigh the bad, but still, im not to sure if this is what i want!!
so, its somthing i am thinking about,, i'm in no rush to jump into this, i want it to be done right,and operate right, and i want to be happy with it.
Joe
Modeling:
Providence & Worcester Railroad
"East Providence Secondary"
HO scale
Here are some really good helix links.
6-page => "A primer on helix design" by Doug Gurin:
"1997 Model Railroad Planning"...
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MRP&MO=1&YR=97
PDF Station Download => "A Guide to helix and staging design"...
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrpdf032.html
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/958698/ShowPost.aspx
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1192534/ShowPost.aspx
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1014613/ShowPost.aspx
And => Here is Brunton's "The Behemoth Helix" webpage:
http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.com/CM%20-%20Behemoth%20Helix.htm
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
i do have quite a bit of experience laying track, so it shouldnt be a problem...as long as i take my time. i plan on leaving my current layout up and running while im building the new one, so i dont get those "i want to run trains now thoughts" which would lead to rushing to complete the trackwork, which we all know what the result would be....
the head-end scenerio might give me a problem just like you metioned...
thank you for the research into the reference you gave me! i'll definately check it out!
thanks again,
Joe, In reply to the tail pusher scereno, it is really difficult to get two locos ,no matter if they are the same brand, to operate exactly the same. Therefore you have much better luck in having them together in the lead and just "fighting each other" rather than this fight going on with a number of cars in between. You will have definate problems in doing that. Don't bother to ask me how I know that. My thoughts were that if I ran one at the end coming up then I would not have a problem if a coupler failed. There would be no runaway. But since I changed to running both power units on the lead I have not had any problems.
Do your very best track laying on the helix. If you haven't laid track before then start on your yards or a branchline and get your skills down PAT before you start on the helix. You do want it to be as good as you can get it. This will solve most of the problems.
That magazine article that I mentioned earlier is in the December 2004 edition of "RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN". Pages 88-89-90. Titled "OCTAGONAL HELIXES" There is a write up as well as all the diagrams and also the cutting diagram for the sheet of plywood.
Hope this helps you out. and good luck.
Johnboy out............
James:1 Verse:5
The "Wobbly" wobbles on in the Great White North.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
This is another option for changing levels
http://www.ro-ro.net/
Have fun
Hi Joe,
There is nothing to be scared about building a helix. It seems a little daunting to start but once you get rolling it is very repetative and goes well.
One thing that I found and it is in an older issue of "Model Railroad Craftsman" is that when building roadbed either curves or helixes if you cut your pieces straight with I believe it is 22.5 degree angle on the ends, you will use far less material. Now when putting it all together and making the ends meet securily, with the material that you use to fasten them togther, that must be taken into account for your vertical clearance as well.
Good luck and go for it.
Mine is in "HO" and I have 27" radius (radii) , 4" vertical clearance and 16" to the lower level.
I pull 10-14 car trains with two units of power. I am manly diesel and this gives a good reason to double-head.
All for now.
Johnboy out..........
The "Wobbly will wobble this afternoon.
I am at work right now and don't have the information available or I would give you the issue of that mag.
Hi. Have you considered something a wee bit different, but still will give you the elevation difference you'd like? I think an exotic helix is a lot of trackage that is hard to maintain, or access in times of trouble. How about a Vee-shaped layout along 2 walls that is almost entirely on a small grade? If the shelf-width is only 12" along the straightaways, you'd have still about 8-9' square left for other activities; shop, seating, etc. The ends of the vee would need the requisite bulb for turning.. about 54" diam, still not intruding too much.
Without doing the math, somewhat less than 32ft of straight per shelf plus twice 3' for the middle corner trackage between levels would produce 425" of grade, and leave the bulbs level. At 2% grade, you'd have over 20" between levels. The 1 kicker is that where the rearmost track approaches the next higher level, you'd need a view-block for the last few feet to look right. Mountain tunnel or some such? Now you have 24" radius curves that will expand what you can run, and no real height restrictions on the stock, and a managable grade. You can cheat a bit and make small areas of track level for local yards/sidings, and reduce the 20" accordingly.
A small idea that may be useful. Have fun with it.... George
explacedog.....WOW!!! very nice thank you.
Brunton: Thank you very much for that formula!
I have thought of N-scale,....i think about it all the time actually!! I'm currently modeling the same line and era in n scale, my wife has graciously let me lease a right-of-way and have a shelf layout around our BEDROOM walls (she is the best!) but my hands are so shakey (im 31....it was a injury suffered in iraq) that i can barely re-rail the cars, and trying to get the level of detail i want in N-scale is very difficult for me, so i've decided to go to HO Scale, and move out to the shed, its never a pleasant sight when i spill ground goop on our comforter.....!!! thanks for everyones input and advice, it is greatly appreciated.
Here's how to calculate what is called the "compensated grade," which is the effect of the actual grade with the curve-induced drag added to it:
CG = G + 28 / Radius (that's compensated grade equals grade plus 28 divided by curve radius)
In your case, that's CG = 3.54 + 28 / 18. CG = 5.10 per cent(!)
If you can go to 22" radius, you're looking at CG = 2.89 + 28 / 22. CG = 4.16%
Finally, if you can add 18" straight sections between semi-circles on a 24" radius, you wind up with
G = 4/(2*pi*r +18*2)*100. G = 4/(2*3.14*24+18*2)*100. G = 2.14%
CG = 2.46 + 28/24. CG = 2.14 + 1.17. CG = 3.31%
The compensated grade formula is empirically-derived (that is, derived by obsercation of effects of curves on grades. It's the formula used by the LDSIG - the Layout Design Special Interest Group of the NMRA.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Here are some old spead sheets I did a year or two ago on this topic
Car length calculation
A) B)
40 6
50 8
60 9
70 10
80 12
Train length calculation
A) B) C) D) E)
psgr 10 120 3 24 144
frt 30 186 4 32 218
psgr 8 96 2 16 112
frt 24 150 3 24 174
psgr 6 72 2 16 88
frt 18 114 3 24 138
psgr 4 48 1 8 56
frt 12 78 2 16 94
psgr 2 24 0 0 24
frt 6 42 1 6 48
Note 01) The first four rows represent trains on primary mainline
Note 02) The next two rows would represent trains on secondary mainlines
Note 03) The last four rows would represent branch or short line trains
Opinion 01) The value of ten cars used for primary mainline passenger trains assumes the following consist - RPO, Baggage, three Pullmans, Dinner, three more Pullmans, and an Observation car. The Pullman cars would probably be Parlor cars on short haul day light trains and Sleepers on long haul and/or night time trains.
Opinion 02) It is assuming that six revenue passenger cars would be required to provide adequate patronage to justify a Dinner and Observation car.
Comment 01) Moving back in time would reduce the train lengths. For example eight fifty foot passenger cars would only require 64 inches. Open platform cars would eliminate any need for a Dinner or Observation car.
Comment 02) Use of steam engines would require less length then diesel units in many cases.
Available track length calculation/s
A) B) C) D) E) F)
G) H) I) J) K) L)
XX XX XX XX XX XX
Note 01) The grade for a full circle and 4 inch rise in the minimum grade for this radius that will allow adequate clearance
Note 02) The maximum grade used should probably be limited to 4 or five percent
19 119 0 38
0.25 4 29 .138 67 .060
0.50 4 59 .068 97 .041
0.75 4 89 .045 127 .031
1.00 4 119 .034 157 .025
1.25 8 148 .054 186 .043
1.50 8 178 .045 216 .037
1.75 8 208 .038 246 .033
2.00 8 238 .034 276 .029
22 138 0 44
0.25 4 34 .118 78 .051
0.50 4 69 .058 113 .035
0.75 4 103 .039 147 .027
1.00 4 138 .029 182 .022
1.25 8 172 .047 216 .037
1.50 8 207 .039 251 .032
1.75 8 241 .033 285 .028
2.00 8 276 .029 320 .025
25 157 0 50
0.25 4 39 .103 89 .045
0.50 4 78 .051 128 .031
0.75 4 117 .034 167 .024
1.00 4 157 .025 207 .019
1.25 8 196 .041 246 .033
1.50 8 235 .034 285 .028
1.75 8 274 .029 324 .025
2.00 8 314 .025 364 .022
28 175 0 56
0.25 4 43 .093 99 .040
0.50 4 87 .046 143 .028
0.75 4 131 .031 187 .021
1.00 4 175 .023 231 .017
1.25 8 218 .037 274 .029
1.50 8 262 .031 318 .025
1.75 8 306 .026 362 .022
2.00 8 350 .023 406 .020
22 138 48 44
0.25 4 82 .049 126 .032
0.50 4 117 .034 161 .025
0.75 4 151 .026 195 .021
1.00 4 186 .022 230 .017
1.25 8 220 .036 264 .030
1.50 8 255 .031 299 .027
1.75 8 289 .028 333 .024
2.00 8 324 .025 368 .022
Don't forget the previous idea of an oval helix.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
hmm..... Byron, i do have experience in designing/construction of several layouts....just not with grades, maybe im just bein too sensitive and taking your post the wrong way..... i do appreciate the feedback though!
to Dave H.
i plan on running small cars, no double stacks, no passenger service, no long cars. and ok everyone cover your eyes......i see no reason to use roadbed in my helix, i have been to and operated a few other peoples layouts with helix's that dont have roadbed and i really didnt see or hear a problem...i DID forget to figure in the height of the rail though,thank you.
to sum up everyones advice so far, i guess the 22" radius at a 2.89 percent grade will be too steep..... Back to the drawing board! Thank you all for your help and advice.
The rise has to be figured from railhead to railhead, NOT to the top of the car. You have to allow space for the roadbed material.
You also have to look at what your tallest car is. Just because it will clear a GP38 that doesn't mean it will clear a boxcar or a auto rack or doublestack or a dome passenger car.
Figure 3.5 in for the cars, .25 in for the roadbed minimum plus .25 for the track (will be less in most cases) that gives you a total rise of 4 in.
If you go down to a 2% grade, that means you have to 4" up in 200 " of run you get a 32" radius. That means your helix has a 5 foot diameter. 1/4 of your 10x10 space is taken up by the helix. Your trains will be visible for 30 ft then go into a 50 ft run (12" spacing = 3 turns of 4" each turn x 200" of run per turn) in a helix.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
mammay76 wrote: im wonderin if a 22" radius, with a 4" space between...giving me a grade 2.89 percent. I am not to familiar with running trains on grades, now im sounding like a newbie, but would that work? (running 6-8 car length trains) again thank you very much for your input guys!
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that probably will not work well unless you do excellent engineering and construction and are very, very lucky. It sounds as if you don't have a lot of experience with layout design and construction -- that's not a crime, we all start somewhere. But this layout concept and the helix to tie it together might be a bit too ambitious if you've never built and operated a layout with grades before.
Joe Fugate, a very experienced modeler who often posts on this forum, built a 24" radius helix for his HO layout. While nominally only a 2.65% grade, the friction of the curving track in the helix made the resulting effective grade well over 4%. Tightly curving grades create problems of stringlining (the tendency for trains to pull cars off the tracks to the inside of the curve). Also, when the steepest grade is in the hidden helix, it creates other problems for the operators.
Joe replaced the 24" radius helix with a 40" radius helix with much better results. He describes all this in the Layout Design Journal #14, Spring 1996, published by the Layout Design Special Interest Group.
It's worth noting that fine layouts have been built in smaller spaces with multiple unconnected decks linked by operations concepts and staging. I wrote about that idea and added some more references in this thread:http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1285535/ShowPost.aspx
ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Space mouse, I just measured my engine (GP 38) from wheel to top and it does clear. it does not provide me with to much vertical space for fingers should it go on the ground though (derail) hmm.......maybe it will work... Thank you again for your advice/help/input, it is greatly appreciated.
If you can find the helix photos posted by Brunton you will get some idea of what a maxi-helix looks like. (4 tracks wide in places.)
There is no Law of Model Railroading that a helix has to be perfectly circular. Adding some length (along the wall, where it won't stick into the aisleway) will do a lot toward reducing the grade. With your specification of short trains and small locomotives, 18" radius should be satisfactory (except for the grade.) Adding 12 inches to the helix length will reduce your grade from 3.6% to just under 3%, assuming 4 inches railhead to railhead (to allow for the thickness of the track supports and allow clearance for all but the tallest rolling stock.)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The problem you will run into is that the tighter you make your helix, the steeper the grade. If you go with a 18" radius and make a rise of 4" you will have a clearnace of about 3 1/4 inch between the plywood and the track.
Circumference=2(pi)r =2(3.14)18" =113"
4" rise in 113 inches = 3.54% grade
3.54% is very steep, but it is compounded by the fact that it is on a steep curve.
A 26" radius will get you a 2% grade.
DK, sorry! i am looking for information on how to build a helix....how to figure out calculations, like how many levels it would need to be...basically everything on helix construction!
Thanks for the link, i'll check it out!
I am not sure I entirely grasp your question. I will point out that there is a commerical helix kit available.
Website is
http://www.easyhelix.com/
Photo from website
Dave Nelson
Well, i've decided to build myself the layout i've dreamt of for the past few years!!! but, its only in a 10' x 10' shed,,,(climate controlled) did i mention its in HO scale??!! yes for me its my dream layout! i've already designed it and have had some private critics take a look and it looks like a winner for me. (i dont have a scanner or i would share!!) it's going to be a 4 level shelf layout, point-to-point pure operations being no more than 12" in width. its a small abandoned branch of the providence & worcester railroad called the southbridge running tracks. there will be small 6-8 car train lengths, great for me and my son to have some good operating sessions. so of course i need a HELIX...... im just curious if someone can direct me to a website, or link to the calculations and formula's i must use. i'm preferring to keep the radius around 18"-20" (room is somewhat of an issue here...) seeing as the train lengths will be small in size, i'm thinking it wont be a problem, the distance between levels from surface to surface is desired to be at 12". the first level will be at 29", the second at 41", the third at 53" and the top level (which i will need a stool for) is at 65'. i know the small radius isnt the greatest, but again im running small trains, engines being GP 38's, train cars themselves will not be long, and the "train" will consist of 6-8 cars. if someone can direct me or offer some advice on the helix, it would be greatly apreciated.
in case i confused anyone, or if i didnt explan myself good enough,
there will be 3 helix's one over the other, equaling one "long" run from level one to level 4.
12" seperation between levels, prefferd radius to be 18"-20"
thanks in advance for reading and your input.