Here's some wall mounted L-girders, right from Westcott's book:
The last pic has a glipse of the L-girder penninsula. I need to take and upload some more pics. The upper level on the wall is only 8" wide, so it is just a 2x2 box frame screwed to the studs.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hey there Trekkie!
Duke (aka bjdukert) gave me a heads up that you might need some assistance!
You might want to check out some of my images, and I have an around the walls layout too! If you have any questions I also was given the heads up that you might be near my neck of the woods too!
Early Construction:
Recent Construction:
Image Gallery
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Trekkie.
A few tips for any woodworking.
1) Get yourself a decent two to three foot long level, a twelve foot tape measure and a woodworking square if you do not already have them.
2) When you are making your top framework and have it secured together to form a box, measure diagonally from corner to corner and note the measurements. They should both be the same. If not, adjust the frame by tapping on one of the corners until they are the same. Then your box is square and you can put your plywood on to secure it.
3) To make sure that you can level your benchwork properly, for each leg you need a 3/8" X 1 1/2" to 2" long machine bolt and a nut for same. You also need a T-nut. These look like a normal nut but it has 4 teeth that stick out one side that you hammer into the bottom of the wooden feet. To install the leveling bolts, drill a hole in the bottom centre of each leg the same diameter and depth of the T-nut minus the teeth. (When installed, the T-nut should be flush with the bottom of the leg.) Before installing the T-nut, drill a 3/8" hole through the centre of the hole for the T-nut to a depth of 1 1/2" to 2" to accomodate the length of the leveling bolt. Hammer the T-nut into the hole, install the nut onto the bolt and screw it into the T-nut. Put your level onto the bench top and adjust the bolts to level front to back and side to side. Tighten the nut against the T-nut to lock your level in place. If you have to relocate the bench, just loosen the locknut and re-level.
Remember. Measure twice, cut or drill once. Been there, done that. (more than once)
Good luck.
Blue Flamer.
SpaceMouse wrote:Lumber has constantly gone down in quality over the years.
Lumber has constantly gone down in quality over the years.
Yup. The old growth forests are largely gone. What's being sold now is replanted stuff that's not very old when harvested. That was dramatically apparent comparing the framing in a 70 year old house with a 10 year old "custom" home. I thought the builder used crap wood for the newer place, but all the newer houses I looked at had "junk" framing.
wjstix wrote:BTW generally it's best to "glue and screw" the lumber together rather than to use nails. Linn Westcott's book on model railroad benchwork is still probably the best starting point for the basics of benchwork construction; it's been reissued many times and should be at the LHS.
BTW generally it's best to "glue and screw" the lumber together rather than to use nails. Linn Westcott's book on model railroad benchwork is still probably the best starting point for the basics of benchwork construction; it's been reissued many times and should be at the LHS.
Keep in mind that dimensional lumber (lumber used in construction) is often bowed intentionally, it allows the wood to have more strength when used to hold up floors and such. The high part would be in the middle, so it would create a slight bit of an arch. At one time, you could browse thru a lumber yard and find very straight lumber, but it's much harder now. Many people are going to using metal pieces, or cutting their own lumber from 3/4" plywood.
Since we are talking about only a 2 x 4 layout, I would suggest that you start over. The frame is probably warped. The cost of materials of replacing the frame is probably about $4.
Lumber has constantly gone down in quality over the years and construction methods have changed quite a bit. Model Railroader has changed their recommendations as well. If you watch the Dream Plan Build Video 1, in the bosus section, they go ito a very detailed method of layout construction. Likewise in the Dec. 2007, bonus flier they repeat the method.
The method calls for use of 1/2 plywood cut into three inch strips. Thes strips are what are used for both the framing materials and legs. They are not screwed, rather they are glued and nailed together.
Any wood you buy these days is green unless it is kiln dried. As it dries, it will warp, even if you keep it off the ground. Stacking it in neat piles helps, but not a lot. There are methods of framing that can be used to keep green wood relatively straight, but it's just easier to go with the plywood and be sure.
Take the time to do it over. You'll like the results a lot better.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
jim22 wrote: I suspect the likely source of the error is that the cross-cuts on the frame are not perfectly square. You may need to "tune-up" your miter saw. You can minimize the effect of the error by keeping all the cross-members oriented the same way. The frame may be a bit of a parallelogram, but will be the same from end to end and will be flat. There is a technique called L-Girder construction which does not require such accurate cuts. Another solution is to mount the plywood on top of risers attached to the frame. The risers can be raised or lowered to make the top flat and level, even if the frame isn't perfect. That's what I did. You might be able to shim the plywood on the back side to remove the twist.http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/958077/ShowPost.aspxJim
I suspect the likely source of the error is that the cross-cuts on the frame are not perfectly square. You may need to "tune-up" your miter saw. You can minimize the effect of the error by keeping all the cross-members oriented the same way. The frame may be a bit of a parallelogram, but will be the same from end to end and will be flat. There is a technique called L-Girder construction which does not require such accurate cuts. Another solution is to mount the plywood on top of risers attached to the frame. The risers can be raised or lowered to make the top flat and level, even if the frame isn't perfect. That's what I did. You might be able to shim the plywood on the back side to remove the twist.
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/958077/ShowPost.aspx
Jim
Also any twist in the boxed frame of 1x4s will have you wracking the frame to align the corners. As a carpenter, I always preach that nails, screws are only to hold until the glue dries. However, benchwork for our use should be only screwed. If you want any changes or need to replace a piece the job is much easier w/o the glue. It is rare to find perfect wood, when assembling any frame bowed or twisted pieces can be placed to allow defects to counteract (fight) each other as not to end up with the problem you encountered. Normally a very large or heavy frame will settle out from the weight. The forces of the wood and the light weight won't allow this unless you anchor the leg to the floor.
The boxed frame style of benchwork can often allow this, using "L" girder (as long as the girder is straight) all but eliminates any of these issues.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I'm reading this and I think the solution is really simple. If you build a frame of 1x4s and top it with plywood the frame WILL flex and distort. Adding a couple cross members, or joists, whatever you want to call them, will keep the frame from twisting. So if you have a cross member every 12" then you'll have a total of five 1x4s 24" long and two pieces 48" long. Hope that makes sense.
EDIT - thats probably over kill. Four cross members at 16" centers would be plenty.
If dealing with a 2'x8' "table " it may be a challenge to pull that much twist out without removing the 1x4s and starting over. This is not to say it can't be done though.
If you are gonna be attaching legs you can do the following. Flip the table upside down. Attach the legs with all 4 having THE EXACT EQUAL amount heading to the floor. Now take a straight 2x4x8' and lay it diagonally on the bottom side of the plywood (you may need to trim a bit to fit) so that the 2x4 rocks on the "hump" of the table bow. Slide one end of the 2x4 against a long side of the table frame, push or stand on the 2x to get it snug against the plywood and run 2 screws (2" drywall screws or similar) thru the 1x4 and into the 2x4 end. Now go to the other end and do the same. Stand the table right side up and run a few screws thru the plywood into the 2x4.
To check for flat grab some fishing line/sewing thread or other thin string. Clamp a block of wood to each corner of the table (the blocks MUST be of equal thickness) and run a string from corner to corner DIAGONALLY on top of the blocks. If where they meet in the middle there is a gap between or one string pushes against the other then there is still twist present. Depending on the severity of the twist it may just need a shim under a leg.
The whole process (minus the lumber yard trip) will take slightly longer than it took to read this message.
Ken
I'm a bit surprised at 1x4s pulling 3/4 inch plywood that far out, unless they were well beyond a little warped. Is it too late to put the plywood on the other face of the frame, instead? Another thing to do might be to make sure the frame and plywood are flat when you put them together.
Reading further, are the glue blocks not square? That would give you a frame out of skew. It sounds a bit backwards, but if we assume the plywood is flat, I'd be tempted to attatch the frame pieces to the plywood first, and then fasten them together and block the corners.
Trekkie wrote:The frame is the source of the warp, not the plywood. When I square up the frame and clamp it to let the glue dry before screwing the length pieces to the width pieces via the glue block is when it goes 'off kilter'...
Okay, then Rusty is correct. And it is a surety your boards that are warped/twisted, but it may be that the plywood contributes somewhat. It happens.
I selected the best timbers I could find at my hardware store, and then I piled them atop one another and stacked them in my basement for a week to see what would happen. I wanted to see what they would do once acclimated to the conditions that are kept within a much more narrow range of temps and humidity. Happily, they all stayed true, although some had a gradual warp to them. I ripped the worst ones in two and then used the two halves as the top part of the L in L-girders. I would force these thinner slices into alignment and then screwed and glued. Once dried, they kept the shape and orientation that I had forced on them. Then, these fairly straight girders became the bases for my four modular frames. Now, a 18 months later, the entire layout sits like a good dining room table. It isn't the prettiest thing you have ever seen, but it is considerably better than my first effort...I had learned. For one, go light. We tend to build 55T main battle tanks to support 60 lbs worth of stuff scattered here and there.
3/8 plywood is thin and will warp easily when cut into small strips. Large pieces will warp too, however if it is adequately supported by a solid frame it will straighten out. I'm using 3/8 fir as my decking, however I used 2x6's that I ripped into 2x3's for most of my bench work. I can crawl my 200lbs across the top of the decking and it doesn't move at all.
Perhaps what you need to do is stiffen up the frame some more.
Or perhaps have the legs equipted with screw plates that can be adjusted up or down to match that particular corner until your level on top says it's level or nearly so.
Nothing in my home is level or anywhere in my state lol. It's level when you uncouple from a car and it stays there.
Cheer up. keep at it.
One of my corners at the end of the 11 foot 8 inches wall is about 100 degrees instead of 90 and the other wall corner is roughly 87 degrees. Instead of tearing my hair out I cut down one inch around benchwork away from wall. Planning curved backdrops into those corners.
Oh, by the way, when you buy plywood that has already been cut then you have to accept or allow for loss by the cutting process.
A full sheet of plywood is usually exactly 48" by 96" but a saw blade is typically 1/8" of an inch thick. Two cuts with a saw and you loose 1/4" of wood.
-John
I think Crandell hit the nail on the head - OK, stop the booing and groaning. Like anything else, benchwork gets better with experience. Don't be frustrated, the suggestions posted are all good ones - replace the really bad pieces and use something to adjust for floor variations. Before building your next benchwork piece, study what you have already, try to determine why it doesn't meet your standards, figure out some options to use on your next piece and give it a go. After a while your ability to choose the straightest pieces of wood and make minor adjustments while assembling a piece will improve and you'll be a benchworking master - of course that usually comes when putting together that last section lol. Don't give up!
Trekkie,
If I read your post correctly you do not have legs on your frame yet so this is not a leg length issue.
Assuming that you have checked your floor for being flat (level is not necessary but flat is) my guess would be that the plywood is warped. This is quite common for typical, standard grade plywood. If the plywood you bought was graded C-D or exterior then it is almost guarenteed to be warped.
Warp is not an issue in building construction since the plywood would be nailed with large nails to heavy framing members and the house framing would pull the warp out of the plywood.
In the lighter weight construction that we do for layouts obviously the warped plywood has more strength than the 1x4 frame and the frame bows.
Personally I think that 3/4" plywood is real overkill in most layout situations. If do want to go with a heavier plywood then you need to go with a higher quality cabinet grade plywood that is designed not to warp.
Good Luck,-John
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: Do you KNOW the floor is flat?How straight were the 1x4s, and how flat was the plywood before you started?Not being able to see what you have, I can't say if you put it together right.
Do you KNOW the floor is flat?
How straight were the 1x4s, and how flat was the plywood before you started?
Not being able to see what you have, I can't say if you put it together right.
Sounds like an uneven floor and some warped wood. Don't screw your legs in till you get the table in place. Hold them in place with some clamps. Then you can adjust them up or down accordingly before you screw them in place. I used 2x4's for my legs and made some levelers out of 3/4" bolts on the bottoms. My floor is REAL uneven. This way I can tweek it all up or down as it settles.
You should accept that there are probably numerous and cumulative errors that you didn't know enough to anticipate simply because you don't do this often enough to be competent. Had you worked at this for a living, your post would be about something else entirely. So, ease up on yourself, find one or two legs that are clearly too short and replace them, or use cedar door jam shims under the high leg(s), or get some leveling screw jacks suitable for your purposes and bolt them to the bottoms of your legs so that you can adjust to account for the garage pad.
I suspect that most of us are a bit dismayed with the disparity between what we imagine our bench will look like and what becomes the reality. I know I was with my first bench nearly three years ago now. Didn't stop me from figuring out fixes, and then enjoying my layout immensely.
-Crandell