joe-daddy wrote: CVP simplex is probably overall the more reliable, but is limited in capabilities (no programming etc)NCE is the cadillac, but seems to suffer range and response issues in more complex environments. Fugate, a man a number of us highly regard has been really forthright in his assessment of NCE, to the point that some even say he is jaded and glossing over some of the issues he is facing. MRC seems reported as the best froma duplex range perspective. Problem with MRC is that many including Joe Daddy hisself is not thrilled with MRC's decoders and other products to the point that it is hard to believe that they have a viable product.
CVP simplex is probably overall the more reliable, but is limited in capabilities (no programming etc)
NCE is the cadillac, but seems to suffer range and response issues in more complex environments. Fugate, a man a number of us highly regard has been really forthright in his assessment of NCE, to the point that some even say he is jaded and glossing over some of the issues he is facing.
MRC seems reported as the best froma duplex range perspective. Problem with MRC is that many including Joe Daddy hisself is not thrilled with MRC's decoders and other products to the point that it is hard to believe that they have a viable product.
Joe,
This appears to be a reasonable assement of the current state of wireless. My friends and myself all use CVP wireless (with the Easy DCC system) and we love the reliability and accept its limitations.
Of course it all depends on what you want from wireless. I run trains. My buddies and I are ops motivated but don't use consists (narrow gauge and steam). We do use sound but I haven't seen the need for more than eight functions even with the Tsunami...
and I hate wireless gremlins of any kind.....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Sorry, deleted duplicate info.
Steve
Thanks Joe, I appreciate your input. Your assessment of various wireless systems is valuable to me.
Jack W.
jalajoie wrote: jwils1 wrote: I'd kind of like to see this thread continue as it does serve a useful purposes for those considering different DCC systems, and showing some interest in radio, as the original poster indicated.Since NCE is a major player in DCC, and a very good one in many ways, it is helpful to know how to best use their radio. And, input about other systems helps to round out the discussion, giving the seeker a broader picture than might be achieved by just monitoring one Yahoo Group. Of course, one could monitor all of the Groups, but that is time consuming and you tend to hear mostly of problems that people are encountering. While that's important, I would also like to hear of success stories to get a good picture of what really works in various situations.However, maybe this particular discussion has run its course, and if so then this thread will dry up.The above plus the fact I am looking into purchasing a NCE Power Cab as a backup system, I would like the opinion of JK as he seems, to me anyway, very knowledgeable of DCC and NCE particularly.Sorry I did not want to annoy anyone with my inquiry.Jack W.
jwils1 wrote: I'd kind of like to see this thread continue as it does serve a useful purposes for those considering different DCC systems, and showing some interest in radio, as the original poster indicated.Since NCE is a major player in DCC, and a very good one in many ways, it is helpful to know how to best use their radio. And, input about other systems helps to round out the discussion, giving the seeker a broader picture than might be achieved by just monitoring one Yahoo Group. Of course, one could monitor all of the Groups, but that is time consuming and you tend to hear mostly of problems that people are encountering. While that's important, I would also like to hear of success stories to get a good picture of what really works in various situations.However, maybe this particular discussion has run its course, and if so then this thread will dry up.
I'd kind of like to see this thread continue as it does serve a useful purposes for those considering different DCC systems, and showing some interest in radio, as the original poster indicated.
Since NCE is a major player in DCC, and a very good one in many ways, it is helpful to know how to best use their radio. And, input about other systems helps to round out the discussion, giving the seeker a broader picture than might be achieved by just monitoring one Yahoo Group. Of course, one could monitor all of the Groups, but that is time consuming and you tend to hear mostly of problems that people are encountering. While that's important, I would also like to hear of success stories to get a good picture of what really works in various situations.
However, maybe this particular discussion has run its course, and if so then this thread will dry up.
The above plus the fact I am looking into purchasing a NCE Power Cab as a backup system, I would like the opinion of JK as he seems, to me anyway, very knowledgeable of DCC and NCE particularly.
Sorry I did not want to annoy anyone with my inquiry.
Jack, Your question is certainly a valuable one, however, and this is just MY opinion, the NCE|CVP|MRC wireless debate is endless. Pretty soon we'll be hearing that everything is OK if you put tin foil on every 3rd transmitter, then someone rages in and says rubbish, you have to use pleated tin foil!
Again, and this is my observed opinion, from the reading of countless posts on this topic, for radio control:
NCD is the cadillac, but seems to suffer range and response issues in more complex environments. Fugate, a man a number of us highly regard has been really forthright in his assessment of NCE, to the point that some even say he is jaded and glossing over some of the issues he is facing.
IF some large, well known layouts and/or personna's like Fugate, Koester, Sperandeo try MRC and give credible and positive feedback, things might begin to change for MRC.
It seems to me, and this is again, my personal take on all of it, duplex wireless is not yet sorted out and it is going to take some time for the issues to be worked through.
My apology to anyone I might have offended in my earlier post.
Your opinions are all certainly worth what mine are!
My 2 cents, never worth another penny!
Joe
joe-daddy wrote: Guys, this business of NCE wireless range seems to permeate EVERY DCC thread and forum lately. It is a futile discussion. I'm suggesting that this conversation is Go to the NCE forum to have this debate.Certainly just my 2 cents, do as you will!
Guys, this business of NCE wireless range seems to permeate EVERY DCC thread and forum lately. It is a futile discussion. I'm suggesting that this conversation is Go to the NCE forum to have this debate.
Certainly just my 2 cents, do as you will!
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jalajoie wrote:On the NCE Yahoo group some posters are now recommending a 6 ft radius circle around the antenna.Also on the same list I read that acquiring engines with NCE wireless is more miss than hit and with some larges club layout, the rule is to always plugging to acquire engines.I would appreciate your views in this matter.ThanksJack W.
On the NCE Yahoo group some posters are now recommending a 6 ft radius circle around the antenna.
Also on the same list I read that acquiring engines with NCE wireless is more miss than hit and with some larges club layout, the rule is to always plugging to acquire engines.
I would appreciate your views in this matter.
Thanks
jktrains wrote: Simon,It was been well documented that human bodies are excellent at blocking or absorbing such low power signals. As the number of bodies increases the response time slows down. Most people using the NCE wireless system recommend using a 15ft radius circle around the antenna to help determine its location. When doing this remember that you only need to cover areas in which people will be using a throttle. For example, you wouldn't need to have coverage in a corner of the room where there is bench work because no one is going to be standing in the corver on the benchwork running a train. You need to make certain the aisleways are covered, not every square inch of benchwork.
Simon,
It was been well documented that human bodies are excellent at blocking or absorbing such low power signals. As the number of bodies increases the response time slows down. Most people using the NCE wireless system recommend using a 15ft radius circle around the antenna to help determine its location. When doing this remember that you only need to cover areas in which people will be using a throttle. For example, you wouldn't need to have coverage in a corner of the room where there is bench work because no one is going to be standing in the corver on the benchwork running a train. You need to make certain the aisleways are covered, not every square inch of benchwork.
simon1966 wrote:Jerry, I suspect that Joe's issues are not related to the number of bodies attenuating or blocking signal, but more to do with band width and too many throttles polling and trying to access the band width simultaneously. I am holding off on Radio for the time being with Digitrax because I feel there are real shortcomings in the current simplex solution. I know from first hand experience that it works well and responds quickly on very large layouts, but I am not crazy about the notion of plugging in to acquire. I have been using the cheap IR solution for a couple of years (it requires plug in as well) and will be quite happy to move to a duplex solution when released. I will be one of the first to put down my $ when the time comes.
SPBdaylight98 wrote: With any DCC system, one frustration is when a locomotive causes a short, usually when passing over a switch. That difficulty seems more of a problem with steam locomotives than diesels. SPBDaylight98
SPBDaylight98
Is it a short, or is it a dropout for just that engine? If all the engines on your layout (or more specifically, in that power district, if you have more than one) shut down, even momentarily, then it's a short. If just the engine crossing the turnout shuts down, then it's a power dropout on that engine.
Shorts are often caused by wide wheels bridging the gap at the point of the turnout frog. This is most pronounced with Peco turnouts. You can often fix this by putting a layer of clear nail polish over just that small gap to insulate it.
Dropouts happen when none of the pickup wheels on one side or the other are in contact with a powered rail. This should only happen with short, 4-wheel engines, or engines where some of the wheels don't have power pickups. Here, it might just be unlucky geometry aligning the dead zones with the wheels, or it may be poor connectivity between parts of the turnout. Jumpers can sometimes fix this, but the first thing to try is cleaning the rails and the wheels to get better contact.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
The range on the MRC wireless seems to be OK. I can go into the family room with it and controlthe trains without problemsand that's putting a dining room and bathroom between meand the layout. I'd say 20 feet or so straight line between the wireless control and the receiver with two or three walls in between. I'll go upstairs tonight.
Tilden
simon1966 wrote:Reports so far do seem to suggest that MRC have done a fine job with the duplex wireless. There continues to be some doubt as to how well the NCE wireless actually works. Having read Joe Furgate's review of his implementation it seems that he is not as happy with it as I think he thought he would be when he went down that route. Since I use Digitrax I have more than a passing interest in the impending release of the new Digitrax duplex system, I am rather hoping that it will be closer to MRC in performance than NCE.
Joe Fugate's layout is relatively large with lot's of people in the room. So, is the NCE problem one of room size, room design, too many bodies, or what? I've read other reports of NCE radio working well with good response, but the responders didn't define their environment.
So far the MRC reports seem to be from smaller operations. How about Digitrax? Do they encounter problems with lots of bodies, etc.? Joe used to have EasyDCC and it sounds as though it worked quite well in the same room.
Radio is such a desireable option that I hope all of the manufacturers can continue with improvements that will overcome any current difficulties or drawbacks. Everyone will be eagerly watching for the new Digitrax offering. When trying to run a railroad, there is nothing more unfun than pressing a button with no, or very slow response.
dadret wrote:Thanks for all your input - my current MRC all of a sudden looks pretty good and I think I'll just keep things as is - maybe I'll update to wireless later.
Sounds like MRC's new duplex wireless works very well and could be a nice future upgrade for you. Not sure how it works for a large group of operators but for typical home use it sounds very good.
MRC doesn't seem to handle consisting as well as some other systems but if it works okay for you then staying with MRC could be the best way to go.
I converted to DCC last December and am happy to have done so. My current system is MRC's Prodigy Advanced, but I have just acquired the MRC Prodigy Wireless, although it is not installed yet.
MRC is straighforward and easy to use. Programming can be done on the main or on a programming track. Consisting is easy. I do wish there was a backspace button that would allow correcting input errors rather than having to start a sequence over again.
With any DCC system, one frustration is when a locomotive causes a short, usually when passing over a switch. That difficulty seems more of a problem with steam locomotives than diesels.
I agree with Joe Daddy on the usefullness of your current system. The basic PA system will handle 19 functions and the base unit can be sent into MRC for an upgrade to access all 28 functions( I believe there is a $50 charge for the upgrade). Also, the basic PA has a power supply of between 2.5 amps (for some of the early units) and 3.5 amps (most units). However the system will take 4 amps, which is a lot for even a medium sized layout. Yesterday I had over thirty units idling on my layout with maybe eight or so sound units on. I still pulled just under 1 amp and only 1.05 amps with a non sound unit running. MRC does have 3.5 and 8 amp boosters, so future power needs shouldn't pose a problem.Also, the MRC wirless upgrade is quite nice and doesn't require any modification to the base unit to use. (One little change with the wireless. When accessing functions above F9, you have a seperate shift button and have to input the whole digit, ie 10,11,12. With the the current PA handhelds you hit shift and 0, or 1, or two,etc)
I agree with Cacole on the usability of 28 functions. As I mentioned, a PA will access 19 functions and at this time, I think even MRC sound decoders, which have a lot of sounds, only have 19 functions. So, what are you upgrading to? At this time, nothing.
Also, as mentioned, remembering becomes a problem. I use sound decoders from several different manufacturers and with the exception of bell and horn (that's two!!!) The sound functions are not the same so I have to pause and think which function does what? Is it five for dynamic brakes on this one or six? Oops, this one doesn't have dynamics I just throttled down the unit climbing a grade.
The Ramp meter is a good idea. It will keep track of the system voltage as well as current draw.
Good luck with your choice.
dadret wrote:I'm thinking of replacing my MRC Prodigy Advance with a completely new DCC system and I'd like some recommendations on which system you guys think is best as far as reliability, user friendly, and features. I have a relatively small layout and probably would not be running more than four locos at once. Wireless would be nice but not a necessity and I want one capable of handling the new 28 accessory functions standard. I'm not ruling out MRC - just looking for some alternatives and there is a wealth of experience on this forum and mine is very limited. I'd appreciate any comments both pro and con.
Dadret,
To get back to answering the question you posed. Since you are already using a MRC PA and are used to the throttle interface, and you've stated that reliability, user friendliness, and that ability to handle the new 28 functions, for all intents and purposes you are left with 2 options to consider. The first is to continue with MRC and explore whether the PA squared will provide you the options you're looking for. The second option would to go with NCE's Powercab, or if you want more power then the PowerHouse Pro system. The Powercab/Procab used by NCE is very similar to the PA. In fact, MRC's design is largely based in the ProCab design. The ProCab is a very user friendly throttle. It is very easy to operate with, to program decoders and to consist with. The NCE system is extremely reliable. Both the PowerCab and PHP are completely upgradeable. For a small cost, the last one was $20, NCE will send you a new EPROM with the new software on it. It takes about 15 minutes to open the case, remove the old chip, install the new chip and close the case. Both NCE systems can access up to F28.
None of the current Digitrax systems have the ability to access up to F28. Most stop at F12. Also, since you've been using the MRC PA throttle, you will need to learn how to use the Digitrax throttles. They are not as user friendly as the PA or NCE throttles. Also, as it currently stands the main components of the Digitrax system can not be upgraded. In fact if you open the case, even to look around, you will void the warranty.
Wireless capability is another whole topic. MRC has recently introduced their own wireless system that you should investigate before making a change. Plus, you've indicated that you're not completely certain that you'll need to go the wireless route.
I'll will echo others suggestions about reading Joe Fugate's thread here and on his website. He recently switched to an NCE system and has provide his reasons for making the switch.
jktrains
dadret, can't you get a booster for the MRC? I don't know their product line really well, but my understanding is that you can add to your system. I would drop MRC an e-mail, tell them what type of expansion you want and let them give you some pointers. Report back, because the issue of expansion with MRC has always been a bit of a question mark.
cacole wrote:The number of available functions is overkill -- how many do you think you can remember without having to look at a manual? Even sound decoders don't support that many functions yet, and even if they did most of the sounds would be things that you would probably never use.
I agree. Yes, there are a few sound decoders that are taking advantage of these functions to key a variety of sound effects. Realistically, though, things like the conductor saying "All aboard!" are gimmicks, and are really not worth upgrading a whole DCC system for.
If you are planning to upgrade for some other reason, then go for the extra functions as part of the upgrade. On the other hand, if you are going to replace your current system to get a capability that you won't use for at least a year or two, why not wait? In another year, you will have more options, and probably better and cheaper options as well.
dadret wrote:There's really nothing wrong with my current MRC - I was thinking of upgrading it to Prodigy Advance2 or the new wireless one both of which have 28 accessory functions (standard was the wrong word to use). Also I noticed that Digitrax is a 5 amp system whil the MRC is only slightly over 3.- thinking of furture expansion more than current operation.
There's really nothing wrong with my current MRC - I was thinking of upgrading it to Prodigy Advance2 or the new wireless one both of which have 28 accessory functions (standard was the wrong word to use). Also I noticed that Digitrax is a 5 amp system whil the MRC is only slightly over 3.- thinking of furture expansion more than current operation.
The typical HO SOUND locomotive with DCC draws less than .25 amps. The BIG current draw on a layout is lighted (incandescent) passenger cars. A string of lighted cars can easily pull an amp.
Sound locomotives sitting idle on a layout pull very little. With a lighted passenger train and 6 or 8 DCC QSI sound locomotives on my layout, my RRamp never goes above 2 amps.
I'd suggest your next purchase be the RRamp meter which is a fundamental requirement in my opinion and would be something that will work when and IF you ever find a need to upgrade.
My Lenz has 12 function keys. I've read where those systems with more have some kind of occassional wierdness associated with the extra keys. I'd check that out carefully before I jumped there.
my 2 cents!
Before someone jumps in and tells you that Digitrax will solve all your problems and cure your cold, I'd like to ask a question first. What is wrong or what don't you like about your current system?
Also what 28 accessory functions standard are you referring? I was unaware that a function (button|key) standard exists.
Since the topic is relevant, I've a poll on my blog about DCC Buyer's selection criteria. Might take a look at it and see what people like you and me say is most important in making these kinds of decisions.
http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/2007/01/dcc-buyer-selection-criteria.html