Theme
Warehouse & Wholesale District in major city, interchange by RR car float only
Engines
1910's Mantua 0-4-0T's & 0-6-0T's
1930's Roundhouse Box Cab Diesels
1950's Bachmann GE 44 & 70 ton Diesels
Space saving concepts (multiple shippers per building)
Loft - multiple firms using different floors in same building
Bays - multiple firms using different sections or suits on same floor
Mart - multiple firms using different areas of floor space on one floor
Loading/Unloading facilities often located away from building, reached by freight elevators & tunnels
Known Possible Problems
01) Track spacing may be too close in some areas making reading car number and coupling/uncoupling difficult
02) Switching leads could benefit from additional length
List of Shippers/Facilities
RR Car Float (Barge) Dock
Note-01 - Extra switching required to keep car floats balanced
Note-02 _ Allow interchange with multiple RR's, NOT just one
Note-03 _ When paired, they might allow some bridge traffic in the right circumstances
1500 3rd Street(1st thru 6th Floors) Soup Canning Company
Note - Possible user of covered gondolas
1600 3rd Street(1st & 2nd Floors) Grocery Wholesale Company
1600 3rd Street(3rd & 4th Floors) Contractor & Builder's Supply Company
1620 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Office Furniture Company
Note - Firms with addresses ending in 20, 40, 60, & 80 are assumed to occupy ¼ of a floor
1640 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Office Supply Company
1660 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Office Equipment Company
1680 3rd Street(5th Floor) Custom Commercial Furniture Manufacturer
1620 3rd Street(6th Floor) Home Appliance Wholesale Company
1640 3rd Street(6th Floor) Home Furniture Wholesale Company
1650 3rd Street(6th Floor) Catalog & Phone Book Printing Company
Note - Possible user of baggage cars
1660 3rd Street(6th Floor) Business Forms Printing Company
1700 3rd Street (1st, 2nd, & 3rd Floors) Freight Terminal - Building 01
Consolidated Union Freight Terminal, Shipping, Receiving, Storage, & Transfer Company
Note-01 _ A "Union" terminal can use cars from several RR's, NOT just one
Note-02 _ "Transfer" means that the company provided car loading and unloading services for off line customers avoiding the need for a team track (motor vehicle access to railway is limited.)
Note-03 _ Terminal includes unloading pits to allow dry commodities to be unload to conveyers and hence to trucks on the other side on the building
Note-04 _ Terminal can handle cars on multiple tracks from one platform
1720 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Coffee, & Tea Company #01
1740 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Rice Company
1760 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Pasta Company
1780 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Candy Company #01
1720 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Coffee, & Tea Company #02
1740 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Industrial Gases Supply Company
Note - AHM Helium Tank Cars
1760 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Chemical Supply Company
1780 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Pharmacy Supply Company
1720 3rd Street(6th Floor) Tobacco Wholesale Company #01
1740 3rd Street(6th Floor) Wholesale Mattress Company
1760 3rd Street(6th Floor) Wholesale Rubber Supply Company
1780 3rd Street(6th Floor) Wholesale Coffee, & Tea Company #03
1800 3rd Street(1st, 2nd, & 3rd Floors) Freight Terminal - Building 02
Notes - See Building #01
1820 3rd Street (4th Floor) Cigarette & Cigar Wholesale Company
1840 3rd Street (4th Floor) Wholesale Coffee, & Tea Company #01
1860 3rd Street (4th Floor) Wholesale Candy Company #02
1880 3rd Street (4th Floor) Bakery Supply Company #01
1820 3rd Street (5th Floor) Crate Manufacturing Company
1840 3rd Street (5th Floor) Keg, & Barrel Manufacturing Company
1860 3rd Street (5th Floor) Beer & Soft Drink Case Manufacturing Company
1880 3rd Street (5th Floor) Tool Handle Manufacturing Company
1800 3rd Street (6th Floor) Breakfast Cereal Distribution Company #01
1900 3rd Street(1st, 2nd, & 3rd Floors) Freight Terminal - Building 03
1920 3rd Street(4th Floor) Eligible Nuts, Seasonings, & Spices Broker
1940 3rd Street(4th Floor) Tobacco Wholesale Company #02
1960 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Textbook Supply Company
1980 3rd Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Dry Pet Food Supply Company
1920 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Plumbing Supply Company
1940 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Electrical Supply Company
1960 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Heating Supply Company
1980 3rd Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Roofing Supply Company
1900 3rd Street(6th Floor) Breakfast Cereal Distribution Company #02
1500 4th Street(1st Floor) Produce Market - Building 01
Fruit and Produce Market (Open to Wholesalers Only) Independent Wholesalers rent floor space in a market building
Note - Market is assumed to require tracks in pairs with platforms between for freight handling
1520 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #01
1540 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #02
1560 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #03
1580 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #04
1520 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #09
1540 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #10
1560 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #11
1580 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #12
1520 4th Street(4th Floor) Pickle Bottling Company
Note - Athrean Pickle Tank Cars
1540 4th Street(4th Floor) Vinegar Bottling Company
Note - AHM Vinegar Tank Cars
1560 4th Street(4th Floor) Cooking Oils Bottling Company
1580 4th Street(4th Floor) Molasses Bottling Company
1520 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Candy Company #03
1540 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Chocolate & Cocoa Company
1560 4th Street(5th Floor) Bakery Supply Company #02
1580 4th Street(5th Floor) Olive & Olive Oil Import Company
1520 4th Street(6th Floor) Retail Piano & Organ Company
1540 4th Street(6th Floor) Billiard & Pool Table Retail Company
1560 4th Street(6th Floor) Barber Shop Fixtures & Supply Company
1580 4th Street(6th Floor) Home Appliance Wholesale Company
1600 4th Street (1st Floor) Produce Market - Building 02
Fruit and Produce Market (Open to Wholesalers Only)
Note - Independent Wholesalers rent floor space on one floor in a market building
1620 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #05
1640 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #06
1660 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #07
1680 4th Street(2nd Floor) Wholesale Produce Company #08
1620 4th Street(3rd Floor) Pretzel Manufacturing Company
1640 4th Street(3rd Floor) Potato Chip Manufacturing Company
1660 4th Street(3rd Floor) Corn Chip Manufacturing Company
1680 4th Street(3rd Floor) Biscuit & Cracker Baking Company
1620 4th Street(4th Floor) Peanut Processing Company
1640 4th Street(4th Floor) Popcorn Processing Company
1660 4th Street(4th Floor) Pasta Manufacturing Company Suite 1
1680 4th Street(4th Floor) Pasta Manufacturing Company Suite 2
1620 4th Street(5th Floor) Bakery Supply Company #03
1640 4th Street(5th Floor) Label Manufacturing Company
1660 4th Street(5th Floor) Waxed Paper Bag Manufacturing Company
1680 4th Street(5th Floor) Cardboard Box Manufacturing Company
1600 4th Street(6th Floor) Wholesale Bottle Company
1700 4th Street Cold Storage Building
1720 4th Street(1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Fish Company #01
1740 4th Street(1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Poultry (Fryers) Company #01
1760 4th Street(1st & 2nd Floors) Dairy Products Supply Company
Note - Independent Wholesaler can use milk reefers from several companies
1780 4th Street(1st & 2nd Floors) Tavern Supply Company
Note _ Beer Wholesaler can use Billboard Reefers from several Breweries, NOT just one
1720 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Shell Fish Company
1740 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Egg Company #01
1760 4th Street(3rd Floor) Wholesale Cheese Company #01
1780 4th Street(3rd Floor) Beer Bottling Company
1720 4th Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Lobster Company
1740 4th Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Mushroom Company
1760 4th Street(4th Floor) Wine Bottling Company
Note - Bachmann Wine tank cars
1780 4th Street(4th Floor) Wholesale Distilled Beverage Company
1720 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Cheese Company #02
1740 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Fish Company #02
1760 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Cheese Company #03
1780 4th Street(5th Floor) Wholesale Shrimp Company
1700 4th Street(6th Floor) Corrugated Box Manufacturing Company
1800 4th Street Meat Market - Building 01
Wholesale Meat Market (Open to Wholesalers Only) Independent Wholesalers and Major Meat Packing Companies rent separate bays in single building
Note-01 _ Independent Wholesalers can use Billboard Reefers from numerous packers
1820 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #01
1840 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #02
1860 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #03
1880 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #04
1820 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #05
1840 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #06
1860 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #07
1880 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Beef Company #08
1820 4th Street (5th Floor) Wholesale Veal Company
1840 4th Street (5th Floor) Wholesale Kosher Meat Company #01
1860 4th Street (5th Floor) Wholesale Poultry (Fryers) Company #03
1880 4th Street (5th Floor) Wholesale Turkey Company
1820 4th Street (6th Floor) Wholesale Kosher Meat Company #02
1840 4th Street (6th Floor) Tallow Supply Company
1860 4th Street (6th Floor) Wholesale Poultry (Fryers) Company #03
1880 4th Street (6th Floor) Wholesale Egg Company #01
1900 4th Street Meat Market - Building 02
1920 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #01
1940 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #02
1960 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #03
1980 4th Street (1st & 2nd Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #04
1920 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #05
1940 4th Street (3rd & 4th Floors) Wholesale Pork Company #06
1960 4th Street (3rd Floor) Wholesale Ham & Bacon Company
1980 4th Street (3rd Floor) Wholesale Deli Supply Company
1960 4th Street (4th Floor) Sausage Manufacturing Company
1980 4th Street (4th Floor) Lard Supply Company
1920 4th Street (5th Floor) Wholesale Mutton Company
1940 4th Street (5th Floor) Glue Manufacturing Company
1960 4th Street (5th Floor) Soap Manufacturing Company
1980 4th Street (5th Floor) Cutlery Supply Company
1900 4th Street (6th Floor) Breakfast Cereal Distribution Company #03
All Shippers
Note - 01 _ All industries Use Fuel Oil for building heating, cooling, & process heating
Note - 02 _ RR & Oil Company Tank Cars
exPalaceDog wrote:Loading/Unloading facilities often located away from building, reached by freight elevators & tunnels
I would think the crossover in front of 1600 4th street is too close to the one at 1700 4th street. Is there even room to leave a car between the two? If so what industry is it servicing? I would move that crossover to the left about 6". So a car spotted at 1600 doesn't have to be moved to get to 1500.
You are going to be in 24/7 switching.
Most produce and meats moves at nighttime and gone by sunrise to the local City Butchers and Resturants etc.
It is my experience that produce markets generally divide companies by groups of floors .. sorta like a rowhouse. Your produce company "Munchie Foods" will own or lease the basement, ground floor/dock and then any of the upper floors plus an elevator and a certain amount of ground space outside to move the product.
Soggy Foods will be right next door with thier own space and both companies are literally elbow to elbow trying to keep each other's stuff from mingling.
The first floor is generally open to either rail or truck. There is also the desk with a phone where most of the buying and selling is done. Around that desk is generally samples of product sitting in boxes for the vendors coming in from the city to view and choose product for the next business day's commerce in thier resturants and butcher houses.
Some produce are sold directly from railcars. It is my understanding that Baltimore had floats with Bananna cars in reefers on that float sold directly to the dock. The people will come up to the float and make the purchase and the crew transfer the product from the reefer, to the deck of the float and thence to the dock.
Other market areas generally had track in pairs with a flat paved surface every two tracks. There groups of reefers by company such as A&P or others are managed by foremen and loaded directly to trucks. In off hours these tracks are sometimes used by passenger trains to load during high capacity events like troop movements or special events that is drawing lots of people.
Well, if it floats your boat. Not realistic at all. This similar layout from 1994 is a lot more like real life and even then is still a bit artificial.
Description
http://users.rcn.com/weyand/tractronics/switching_layout/layout_description.htm
It was also in mrp 2005
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Gandy Dancer wrote: exPalaceDog wrote:Loading/Unloading facilities often located away from building, reached by freight elevators & tunnelsThis would seem a bit odd to me- did this happen in real life? Often industries would unload from multiple tracks by putting ramps between spotted cars and pull the loads from the "outboard" car through the "inboard" cars. This would mean the cars right next to the dock or even the center track could not be moved until the cars using them as a bridge were (un)loaded as well. Or the railroad would have to perform "internal industry" moves to shuffle the cars closer to the dock as they were unloaded.
Good question! The Old Dog understands that working RR cars on multiple tracks from one platform was common practice at freight terminals & stations. But whether the practice was used at other places is unknown.
Gandy Dancer wrote: I would think the crossover in front of 1600 4th street is too close to the one at 1700 4th street. Is there even room to leave a car between the two? If so what industry is it servicing? I would move that crossover to the left about 6". So a car spotted at 1600 doesn't have to be moved to get to 1500.
There is about 12" or two cars lengths between them. But moving the crossover to the left by about 6" might be a excellent idea.
Have fun
Falls Valley RR wrote: You are going to be in 24/7 switching.Most produce and meats moves at nighttime and gone by sunrise to the local City Butchers and Resturants etc.It is my experience that produce markets generally divide companies by groups of floors .. sorta like a rowhouse. Your produce company "Munchie Foods" will own or lease the basement, ground floor/dock and then any of the upper floors plus an elevator and a certain amount of ground space outside to move the product.Soggy Foods will be right next door with thier own space and both companies are literally elbow to elbow trying to keep each other's stuff from mingling.The first floor is generally open to either rail or truck. There is also the desk with a phone where most of the buying and selling is done. Around that desk is generally samples of product sitting in boxes for the vendors coming in from the city to view and choose product for the next business day's commerce in thier resturants and butcher houses.
The 24/7 switching sounds good! Having the freight terminal busy in the day time and the produce terminal busy at night might bevide a nice balance.
Dog,
Joking aside this plan could benefit greatly from custom turnouts, double slips, etc. You're loosing a lot of maneuvering room by trying to use fabricated turnouts.
If any situation justified custom trackwork, this would be it.
Other than that, your barge is much too short to service the number of industries. I don't know what you plan on the immediate right of your layout, but on my layout I have to have space to walk by. I am planning a drop hinge two tracks wide to allow switching. Adding 3-4 feet to your barge would be a significant operational improvement--sort of a makeshift hinged cassette.
I'm also having trouble picturing a prototype, not that it is important. Why would a bunch of industries congregate so tightly on an island with no service other than a barge when there are places like Nevada and Delaware.
Gandy Dancer wrote: This would seem a bit odd to me- did this happen in real life?
This would seem a bit odd to me- did this happen in real life?
It was very common up until the 1960's (when overall traffic dropped off). It was particularly common around freight houses, wharehouses, food distribution centers, LCL shippers, anyplace that would use primarily boxcars and deal with a high volume of traffic.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
SpaceMouse wrote: Dog,Joking aside this plan could benefit greatly from custom turnouts, double slips, etc. You're loosing a lot of maneuvering room by trying to use fabricated turnouts. If any situation justified custom trackwork, this would be it.
True! But I happened to be using RTS 7.0 which for some strange reason only includes Atlas products;-)
SpaceMouse wrote:Other than that, your barge is much too short to service the number of industries. I don't know what you plan on the immediate right of your layout, but on my layout I have to have space to walk by. I am planning a drop hinge two tracks wide to allow switching. Adding 3-4 feet to your barge would be a significant operational improvement--sort of a makeshift hinged cassette.
A longer barge would be nice, but it would be harder to handle. It would be nice to be able to have a set of cassettes that could be slipped in from the right end. Otherwise, putting cars on and off the layout will be troublesome due to the center location of the barge.
SpaceMouse wrote:I'm also having trouble picturing a prototype, not that it is important. Why would a bunch of industries congregate so tightly on an island with no service other than a barge when there are places like Nevada and Delaware.
Try the old Wallabout Yard in Brooklyn, NY. I replaced the team yard with a produce market and meat house row to save space and add interest. At one time, the freight rates for such that shippers on the island could compete with mainland firms.
SpaceMouse wrote:RTS is a very limited program. For this project you might print out a bunch of parallel tracks and hand draw the custom trackwork.
Actually, the problem is the Atlas track, not the software. Atlas simply does not make some of the components needed.
A better solution might be to go to this site
http://www.winrail.com/
and purchase the non-free-ware version of the program. One of the libraries included is for Peco HO track. That would make "goodies" like double slip turnouts and three way turnouts available. The only catch is that the price is a little high.
None of the programs do custom track out of the box, but the CAD programs allow you to design custom trackwork. XtrkCAD, free, does this. However, the learning curve for this might be steep. With XtakCAD at least you can run your track "as if" the custom trackwork was there. But if it is just double slips you are looking for XtrkCAD has a few in their inventory.
The reason I dislike RTS is not that it is propietary, it is because its way of handling trackwork limits your thinking to what it can do.
Falls Valley RR wrote:I could not stand the Xtrak one moment longer. Too much tiny fiddling with each section of track. I tossed it and got the box of track out and let em flop I make more progress this way.
There is a lot to be said for pencil & paper. Another approach might be to draw & cut out scale card broad mockups of the track sections, then use them for planning.
SpaceMouse wrote: None of the programs do custom track out of the box, but the CAD programs allow you to design custom trackwork. XtrkCAD, free, does this. However, the learning curve for this might be steep. With XtakCAD at least you can run your track "as if" the custom trackwork was there. But if it is just double slips you are looking for XtrkCAD has a few in their inventory.
I have XtrkCAD, but have never been able to get it to function. It is probably a "good" product, but the Old Dog is missing a basic concept or operating approach some where. I also have CAD program, but one would need to draw each of the components at least once.
SpaceMouse wrote:The reason I dislike RTS is not that it is propietary, it is because its way of handling trackwork limits your thinking to what it can do.
The Old Dog likes the concept of taking a set of standardized components and seeing what one can do with them, be it Lego blocks or sectional track.
To get back to the original project, the more I look at that design, the less I like the location of the car float in the center of the layout. One would need to reach over cars in the foreground to place or remove cars from the layout. Going to a "L" shape then putting in a curve to bring the car float to the front along one side of the "L" might make more sense.
XtrkCAD does not work like RTS. You don't add sections of track rather you place track as place holders and join them. IF you try to take sectional track and add them, you would be spinning your wheels like you suggest.
For instance: to make a 4 x 8 loop you create a 22" radius circle and put it on the end of the layout. You duplicate that circle and put it on the other end of the layout. Then you use the connect track tool to join the circles. The computer trims the excess. Elapsed time about 30 seconds.
exPalaceDog wrote: The Old Dog likes the concept of taking a set of standardized components and seeing what one can do with them, be it Lego blocks or sectional track.
I've made that comparison before. RTS is like trying to make a car out of tinker toys. You can get the general concept of the car, but it still looks like it was made from tinker toys.
In this project, pencil and templates might be the way to go. But even that is limited. Dense track with custom trackwork rarely follows the templates of standard turnouts. It kinda weaves and bobs to make things fit.
I like the idea of a redesign. An L shape could make it so the the drop down extension works.
For almost 75 years, the Erie (followed by the EL) operated a yard in Manhattan at 28th St served by a car float. The yard's capacity varied over the years, but at one point had a capacity of 105 cars. I don't have any firm data regarding the size of the barge; however, it appeared to have comprised 3 tracks that may have held 12-15 cars. The float may have been the same. Available operating data for one year indicates a probable average of incoming at 20-25 cars/day counting 365 days or closer to 30/day for a 300-day year. The latter might be closer to the truth, easily accomodated by as few as 2 barge trips per day (more likely 3 to meet schedules of the trains on mainland NJ). And, yes, cars were unloaded through each other into the freight houses; at one time as many as 5 tracks could be so handled. therefore, the proposed plan is not so far-fetched although the Erie trackage was simpler in a larger area.
As for model rr cad, permit me to once again suggest the smoother, safer, more reliable Macs running a simple, easily customizable program called Empire Express. No fancy bells and whistles, just single-line track that connects very well and with many libraries, including W-S. I did redo the W-S curved turnouts when I discovered that the mfr's published inside radii are incorrect (was not a difficult job).