Hey guys! With all of the great advice I received, I've decided to press my luck again. In one of the responses to my earlier inquiry, someone suggested adding a reversing section to the northern portion of my layout. I didn't think much of it at the time, as it was pointed out that I have a reverse loop for that section, though it's in the sourthern loop. But I got to thinking that "heck, why not add a second reversing section?" And now that I've gone and done it (well, almost - I have the track positioned, just not caulked down yet), I think I had better check my reversing assumptions here, so I don't have to go and rip up track to fix something that should have been obvious. My main issue is that I'm not entirely clear about how to isolate the loops, as they are one inside of the other. So first, the layout (the image is a bit large - wanted to leave as much in for clarity as possible):
I've added the track (and associated switches) indicated by the blue line. I recognize that I have two reversing loops that could depart and arrive at switch A, or depart and arrive at switch B. So, my question is about where my insulators should go, and how/where I should connect my reversing modules. I've done the "run your fingers around the rails" - and I've really done it on the rails. It seems like the best/easiest way would be to insulate the joiners at points 1, 2 and 3, and attach the reversing module to that section. Am I missing something, because that seemed easier than it should be. Thanks again in advance!
You have several potential reverse loops depending upon how you wire it. If you treat the layout as a big loop, any track that crosses from one side of the loop to the other requires reversing. You have several. Thus I would not recommend wiring it that way.
However, if you look at the layout as a mainline with a reverse loop at each end, you just have four. The first pair starts at the turnout below the purple highlighted segment and travels clockwise around the loop to some point just short of turnout A. The second basically includes the parallel balloon tracks at the opposite end of the layout. If your layout is DC, you'll definitely need each pair to be independently control. However, if you use DCC, then you can probably make each pair share a reversing circuit, but ideally they wouldn't.
That works if your longest train fits between points A & B.
The other option I see is to move insulation #3 to the other end of the blue segment. At the same time move #2 clear around the curve to the straight leg of the A turnout where #3 currently is on the departing leg.
I assume you already have the south end of the layout figured out.
Gandy Dancer wrote:That works if your longest train fits between points A & B.The other option I see is to move insulation #3 to the other end of the blue segment. At the same time move #2 clear around the curve to the straight leg of the A turnout where #3 currently is on the departing leg.
If I move #2 clear around to the stright leg of Turnout A, my longest train can still be no longer than the distance between points #2 and #1, right? (Which would essentially be the same as the distance between A and B.) Would it make sense/be feasible to leave insulators at joiners #1 and #2, and then move the insulators at #3 to the opposite side of the blue segment from where they are currently? That would increase the train length by approximately 4'.
Gandy Dancer wrote:I assume you already have the south end of the layout figured out.
Aye - that I do. Some great folks on here helped me with that. I ended up with the following for the south side of the layout:
I am running DCC. I know that I need only one reversing module for the southern section - the loop isolated by the points in the above diagram. I'm assuming that only one reverser would be needed for the northern section we're talking about isolating. I jumped the gun a little and got 3 PSX-ARs down at Caboose Hobbies the other day, so I have a "spare" if I end up needing it. I'm also considering breaking up the layout into 3 other districts: the yard/staging penninsula and the tracks on the adjoining tables to it; the full 12' section on the east side; the small southern yard and adjoining tracks that aren't part of another district or loop. From an operational standpoint, that seems to make the most sense, anyway.
ericboone wrote:However, if you look at the layout as a mainline with a reverse loop at each end, you just have four. The first pair starts at the turnout below the purple highlighted segment and travels clockwise around the loop to some point just short of turnout A. The second basically includes the parallel balloon tracks at the opposite end of the layout. If your layout is DC, you'll definitely need each pair to be independently control. However, if you use DCC, then you can probably make each pair share a reversing circuit, but ideally they wouldn't.
Right - that's how I've always seen the layout - a folded dogbone with reversing loops at each end. I've got the southern side taken care of, I think - as I indicated in the above post. And I have sufficent reversing modules to cover another 2 reverse loops, though it would seem that I could just isolate one of the "loop in a loop" on the northern side and be set. And yes - I am running DCC. Love it!
I need to think some more, but I'll toss this out there.....
Insulate at the frog end of both legs of the B turnout, insulate at the frog end of the straight leg of the new turnout at the bottom of the blue line. I think that makes the revers section a fairly straightforward loop, though with two entrances.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
If you are running a dogbone and don't connect the two sides, then you don't have any reversing loops. What you are making are reversing tracks where you have connected across the layout.
If you want to make the short connecting tracks the reversing sections then only the two sections that are highlited blue in the diagrams need be connected to the reversers. Now if you want to include the section from A to B as part of the same block electrically as the blue track so you have a reversing section that's a train length long, you can do that, you just have to consider what other movements you are making at the same time.
I would have wired the layout differently to begin with (I would have mde it "double track" and then wired the dogbones as reversing sections as opposed to wiring it as a loop and making the connecting tracks reversing sections.) Much simpler wiring that way and any connections you make between the tracks on the rest of the layout don't matter. You can put in all the connections and crossovers you want.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ajmott wrote: Gandy Dancer wrote: That works if your longest train fits between points A & B.The other option I see is to move insulation #3 to the other end of the blue segment. At the same time move #2 clear around the curve to the straight leg of the A turnout where #3 currently is on the departing leg. If I move #2 clear around to the stright leg of Turnout A, my longest train can still be no longer than the distance between points #2 and #1, right? (Which would essentially be the same as the distance between A and B.) Would it make sense/be feasible to leave insulators at joiners #1 and #2, and then move the insulators at #3 to the opposite side of the blue segment from where they are currently? That would increase the train length by approximately 4'. Gandy Dancer wrote:I assume you already have the south end of the layout figured out. Aye - that I do. Some great folks on here helped me with that. I ended up with the following for the south side of the layout: I am running DCC. I know that I need only one reversing module for the southern section - the loop isolated by the points in the above diagram. I'm assuming that only one reverser would be needed for the northern section we're talking about isolating. I jumped the gun a little and got 3 PSX-ARs down at Caboose Hobbies the other day, so I have a "spare" if I end up needing it. I'm also considering breaking up the layout into 3 other districts: the yard/staging penninsula and the tracks on the adjoining tables to it; the full 12' section on the east side; the small southern yard and adjoining tracks that aren't part of another district or loop. From an operational standpoint, that seems to make the most sense, anyway.
Gandy Dancer wrote: That works if your longest train fits between points A & B.The other option I see is to move insulation #3 to the other end of the blue segment. At the same time move #2 clear around the curve to the straight leg of the A turnout where #3 currently is on the departing leg.
You've nailed it that way. The only negative to your reverse sections is that they are very short. If you have a long train with metal wheels on your cars, you'll run the risk of bridging the gaps at both ends of the reverse section simultaneously and shorting out your entire layout. Therefore, you may wish to make all the parallel track (on the shelf section) wired in the same direction and make the balloon tracks at each end the reverse loops. Those tracks are long enough to hold a full train.
I am glad to see the abundance of interest in your layout. As I have stated in a previous post, my DCC HO layout has four reverse loops and two wyes. The new reverse loop within a reverse idea is great. I still favor an around the room layout, which you might consider. It would require a hinged drop at the left end, and a Y switch, and two other switches to connect the lower section to the upper section, so that the trains can approach or leave the upper left section from two different directions. That idea would allow you many more possible routes to travel, but would require a completely new set of isolation an reverse loop modules (which would be possible with your 3 PSX-ARs)
ajmott wrote:If I move #2 clear around to the stright leg of Turnout A, my longest train can still be no longer than the distance between points #2 and #1, right?
Would it make sense/be feasible to leave insulators at joiners #1 and #2, and then move the insulators at #3 to the opposite side of the blue segment from where they are currently? That would increase the train length by approximately 4'.
It's funny - this layout is the result of opening up an around the room type of layout. The layout was originally designed, and the benchwork built, for a layout that was in a garage and had access all around the outside without the need to go inside. We moved about a year ago, and I was allowed use of the basement by the "Space Planning Committee." The space wasn't totally conducive to the previous plan, so I opened it up a bit. I see what you'rs saying about a drop-in section and think that would be a great idea - I'll likely do that as an expansion project at some point down the road. I'm having a blast with what I've got going here, so having something to look forward to in the future will make it that much better, I think.
As for where to insulate, I see the error of moving points 2 and 3 too close together. Jeff's idea of insulating individual rails, as opposed to both rails is intriguing. I wonder, though - how would I connect the PSX-AR? I was under the impression that the module needed to be connected to a completely isolated portion of track. Isolating individual rails, as Jeff indicated, wouldn't necessarily isolate an entire portion, but just break up the rails a bit. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the suggestion, and the instruction manual.
ajmott wrote: It's funny - this layout is the result of opening up an around the room type of layout. The layout was originally designed, and the benchwork built, for a layout that was in a garage and had access all around the outside without the need to go inside. We moved about a year ago, and I was allowed use of the basement by the "Space Planning Committee." The space wasn't totally conducive to the previous plan, so I opened it up a bit. I see what you'rs saying about a drop-in section and think that would be a great idea - I'll likely do that as an expansion project at some point down the road. I'm having a blast with what I've got going here, so having something to look forward to in the future will make it that much better, I think.As for where to insulate, I see the error of moving points 2 and 3 too close together. Jeff's idea of insulating individual rails, as opposed to both rails is intriguing. I wonder, though - how would I connect the PSX-AR? I was under the impression that the module needed to be connected to a completely isolated portion of track. Isolating individual rails, as Jeff indicated, wouldn't necessarily isolate an entire portion, but just break up the rails a bit. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the suggestion, and the instruction manual.
No, I didn't mean individual rails, I was trying to describe which tracks. Insulating one rail, while it may work for some things in some places, is not what I was suggesting. I was seeing the reverse section as a loop from turnout B to the left, with an additional entrance at the turnout at the bottom of the blue line. Sorry for the confusion!
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: ajmott wrote: It's funny - this layout is the result of opening up an around the room type of layout. The layout was originally designed, and the benchwork built, for a layout that was in a garage and had access all around the outside without the need to go inside. We moved about a year ago, and I was allowed use of the basement by the "Space Planning Committee." The space wasn't totally conducive to the previous plan, so I opened it up a bit. I see what you'rs saying about a drop-in section and think that would be a great idea - I'll likely do that as an expansion project at some point down the road. I'm having a blast with what I've got going here, so having something to look forward to in the future will make it that much better, I think.As for where to insulate, I see the error of moving points 2 and 3 too close together. Jeff's idea of insulating individual rails, as opposed to both rails is intriguing. I wonder, though - how would I connect the PSX-AR? I was under the impression that the module needed to be connected to a completely isolated portion of track. Isolating individual rails, as Jeff indicated, wouldn't necessarily isolate an entire portion, but just break up the rails a bit. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the suggestion, and the instruction manual. No, I didn't mean individual rails, I was trying to describe which tracks. Insulating one rail, while it may work for some things in some places, is not what I was suggesting. I was seeing the reverse section as a loop from turnout B to the left, with an additional entrance at the turnout at the bottom of the blue line. Sorry for the confusion!
Heh - my bad; my wife says I'm always misunderstanding things too! So, with what you're saying then, is essentially the following, right?
I see why that makes sense for the outer loop. I'm assuming that section of track now isolated would be on one reverser. What would happen if a train came right to left into switch B, took the #1 insulating route, then continued on the stright leg of the A switch, then circled back onto the blue line - wouldn't a short occur when it tried to cross back over on switch A, doubling back on the track it arrived on? Or again, am I not totally understanding how a DCC auto-reverser works?
That's what I get for posting when I should be sleeping! Let me stare at this a bit, and see what pops out!
I've done some more staring, see what this looks like (no guarantees!)
Based on the most recent pic....
Keep the gaps at 2, eliminate the gaps at 1, add gaps on both of the legs of turnout A. Move the gaps at 3 to the left until just before the turnout at the bottom of the pit, or maybe a bit before that to allow a train length from there to the gaps at 2. It might make sense to move the gaps at two towards the crossover to keep the new gaps (that used to be at 3) close to the turnout. It depends on how you see the trains flowing through there, trying to reduce the likelihood of multiple gap crossings at the same time.
I hope this one makes sense, I used to think I had a clue!
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:I've sone some more staring, see what this looks like (no guarantees!)Based on the most recent pic....Keep the gaps at 2, eliminate the gaps at 1, add gaps on both of the legs of turnout A. Move the gaps at 3 to the left until just before the turnout at the bottom of the pit, or maybe a bit before that to allow a train length from there to the gaps at 2. It might make sense to move the gaps at two towards the crossover to keep the new gaps (that used to be at 3) close to the turnout. It depends on how you see the trains flowing through there, trying to reduce the likelihood of multiple gap crossings at the same time.I hope this one makes sense, I used to think I had a clue!
I've sone some more staring, see what this looks like (no guarantees!)
Heh - a clue? I used to have a pocket full, but my kids seem to have run off with them.
I get the gist of what you're suggesting, I believe. Tweaking what you said, just a little, this is what I've come up with:
I won't ever have a train so long that it can double over any gaps. I can't see that I should have any problems here. Am I missing something? (Hopefully not - I'd like to get the track laid and wired this weekend.)
Thanks again fellas, for all the thoughts and advice.
That's almost exactly what I was trying to say. I think it looks right. I'll look at it again later, just to get another look at it.
Instead of using two turnouts for a crossover, have you considered using "double slip" switches, which allow "crossover" in both directions, with a single switch. Many of the other's suggestions have dealt with ways to increase the distance between entrances to the two reverse loops, so I won't go into that. I have found that the use of automobile tail-lights is an inexpensive and visual way to detect and protect against short circuits. Incidentally, do you have "DCC Projects and Applications", "DCC Made Easy", or the Digitrax "Big Book of DCC" ? These books provide DCC instruction and ideas. Bob Hahn e-mail ROBTAHahn@aol.com