HO Layout thoughts (long)

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I did use some of them already and discoverd a post card of the UP Salina Station but I'm not going to pay $10 bucks for it. I'll take some pictures.

I also found out why I saw BNSF on some of the track stuctures but only see UP locos. Salina is a junction of the BNSF(Santa Fe), Mo-Pac and UP lines. Since UP asorbed MP in 1997 it makes sense now.

I suggested that my wife read my thoughts and you're responses. She thought the idea were good and she likes to paint while I hate it so I may get help.

Besides her employment at a major box store home improvement company is worth 10% of on everything there. [: D]

thanks

DT
[:D]

[leighant]

Modeling the house you lived in is great fun, AND a challenge because you know the prototype and can see if something is not right.
Building real recognizable structures is a real thrill. My wife took me to Kansas to clean out her mom's old house in Hutchinson when the elderly lady was too confused to live alon anymore. (And besides, the heating system in the house was condemned.) It was a simple but interesting square little house, one block from one of the half-mile long grain elevators of Hutchinson. I took snapshots from all angles, drew up plans and built TWO identical models, one for my own railroad and one from a modeler who had a layout with a scene representing Hutchinson.
Funny, when you try to model a specific structure that you actually know, you find a lot of common things that are a challenge to model, that you wouldn't have noticed on a prototype you know only from the picture on the kit.
Another fun model, I saw a Phillips 66 bulk oil dealer in Sealy, Texas that was interesting because it had an older probably 1920 vintage wood frame central building, with a 1950 era ridged sheet metal panel lean-to addition. I built one for my layout and one for a friend who was building a model of Sealy, Texas on his layout.
(It's almost as easy to build two as one.)
I wanted to do something challenging for a model contest and build a model of a prototype I could be suree was familiar to the judges. Might be considered daring, or even presumptuous. I built a model of an old barn that housed a layout that was always on the tour when the convention was held in its city. A building all of the contest judges had been in, I could be sure. I built a board-by-board model, and painted one side to look like it had been freshly painted over old wood, and the other three sides unpainted. The owner of the barn said I had modeled it as it appeared on the week of a previous year's layout tour, because he had only painted one side and then stopped because getting the layout running was a higher priority. I cheated and modeled the trains in the building as Lionel O gauge instead of HO. The judges told me afterwards they had to take off a few points because my train barn wasn't leaning quite as much as the prototype. Too square.
Happy modeling.

[leighant]

Who owns what track? You might write or log to to the Kansas Dept of Transportation. I believe they have a map identifying railroads in Kansas. They would probably be more up-to-date than a generic commercial map.

Station plans- is it perhaps a STANDARD plan, where the same plan was used for a number of stations on the same railroad. There may be a published scale drawing of an identical depot, or one built to a mirror image of same plan, or one with variations but with some elements identical.
I know that Santa Fe had a depot in Salina, don't know if yours is it. Santa Fe has LOTS of depots built to standard plans. Several of them have been produced in kit form.
There may be a scale drawing of your depot in Sanborn's Insurance Fire Credit Rating maps, and there may be a drawing, at least the outline and dimensions of the building in the City Building Permit office in the city in question.
"Module" (or sectional piece of layout) 2x4' good. Or 2x6. 4x4 too hard to reach across for access. Might be best to figure your track layout, how turnouts will go together and choose size of section to fit particular trackwork, even if comes out some odd dimension like 2' x 5'4", so the break is where it is convenient to build the trackwork around.
You might consider building one or two 4' or 6' sections that make into a town with a passing siding and industry and depot spurs, something that will part of a planned bigger layout. Then have a removable end module or two for staging. When the "in-between" is all perfected and built and scenicked and detailed, build ANOTHER section and move that end's staging section on down. Keep adding until you've got your super railroad, one chunk at a time, and you always have a running railroad.

[BruceJob]

Hey, DT...

Here's some thoughts...

"2.) The railroad uses the old station in Salina for an office...any thoughts on where I could find the plans to model it?"

You might contact UP for plans. Try the UP website for contact info:

http://www.uprr.com/info/contact.shtml

"5.) I was thinking of a lower level staging area is there a book or perferably a website that can give me some ideas on this."

I came across Mike Hamer's B&M website with an intriguing "surround staging" arrangment, where the staging tracks surround the operations area. Take a look:

http://www.ovar.ca/Mike%20Hamer/Hamer.htm

Hope this info is useful for you.

Bruce J.

[dknelson]

Good maps should identify who owns rail lines (sometimes they do not keep up well with mergers and acquisitions). Next I would join whatever RR historical society exists that is devoted to that railroad. And do not ignore local historical socities and libraries when it comes to photos of things like depots. And you might be shocked by what has been posted on the internet -- try Google Images and type in Salina.
There are certainly layout planning ideas that exist that enable you to have two widely spaced features on the same layout without it being absurd, but frankly if you want them snuggled up next to each other, who is to object? Even the largest layout can model only a tiny fraction of a real railroad, just a few miles at best.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

DT:

If you are thinking of working from photos of existing structures, i suggest you get a carpenters collapsable ruler and use it somewhere in the picture to establish scale. Also a 50 foot steel tape with a claw on one end to take single-handed measurments of longer dimensions. With a bit of experience you can size the photos to scale with a computer and use the photos as scale plans.

I agree with, and strongly suggest you follow the advice of, the other posters who suggest you build a complete operating section of the eventual large layout. Its a great 'test bed' for your ideas. If you are like me it will also show you what NOT TO DO again as well as what works.

Good Luck

Randy

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhugart


Anything else...well, don't let yourself get stopped by pure planning. What you might consider is assembling some simple module, like a 1x6 switching layout, something to cut your teeth on, give you a feel for the amount of time it will take, and something that you can play with while working on the big layout.

An excellent suggestion--actually that's exactly what I did. A small switching layout is a good way to hone basic skills and work out some ideas, but it can be expanded into a larger design. It can also be very helpful to have a section, even a small section, of layout FINISHED and operating--rather than staring balefully at a room full of plywood chunks and darn little operating trackwork after X+10 hours of labor...

[jhugart]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DT1967

Now for my questions:

1.) Where can I find out who owns the line to confirm my thoughts?

2.) The railroad uses the old station in Salina for an office...any thoughts on where I could find the plans to model it?

3.) There is a 180 mile space between Salina and KC so can I use modeler's license to do this non scale? Or would this be bad form?

4.) I realize this a big scope but is this perhaps too much to model? I'm thinking doing it in modules or sections. Any thoughts on size for them 2'X4' or 4'x4' were my thoughts.

5.) I was thinking of a lower level staging area is there a book or perferably a website that can give me some ideas on this.

6.) Any other things I should consider since this is still in the thinking or dreaming stage?

Probably Mapquest or any recent map will show you who owns train tracks that exist.

Plans for modeling a station -- you may have to measure it. Unless the railroad has copies.

180 mile gap -- do whatever you want, or just have it go outside the layout. You are not obliged to repropruce the proportions of the line on which you are working.

Too much to model? Well, keep in mind that if you plan to build all your benchwork in one, four-hour session, your chances of success are poor. I'm working on something like a simple 4x8, and the scenery is taking a long time, longer than I thought it would.

Lower level staging -- probably a nice helix, and then just some plywood. There has been some information on this in recent MR issues, and I think they have it covered in one of the more recent books on benchwork or track planning.

Anything else...well, don't let yourself get stopped by pure planning. What you might consider is assembling some simple module, like a 1x6 switching layout, something to cut your teeth on, give you a feel for the amount of time it will take, and something that you can play with while working on the big layout.

[Jetrock]

Wherever possible, especially when modeling a real-world location that is nearby, try taking lots and lots of photos! Stay off of railroad property, but with a telephoto lens you can get lots of shots of the stuff that is still standing. These are very helpful if you're trying to model specific buildings--having photos to check while paging through the Walthers catalog is a good way to find similar-looking structures to kitbash. I'm doing the same thing, just a bit back in time--modeling the town where I live as it looked in the 1940's and 50's. But I'm trying to build structures that have meaning to me today that were around back then.

Try checking local maps to find out who owns the line--even the most rudimentary gas-station or AAA map will include ownership of most local railroads, and older maps (which aren't hard to find in antique shops or thrift stores) can often illustrate where now-disappeared tracks were located. If your town has a historical society or a good central library they will often have references on local history that can provide an invaluable resource.

One thing to keep in mind is that BNSF is a recent merger--if you're modeling anything less recent than the past couple of years, you'd definitely find more BN or ATSF engines--in fact, on my last train trip through the Midwest I definitely saw a lot of BN rolling stock about. When you take your photos be sure to snap shots of the older rolling stock you see to get an idea of the diversity of stock you'd want to buy for your line.

As for the 180 mile gap, just make some means of visual separation between the distant areas. Tunnels are probably out of the question in Kansas, but if you're modeling urban areas it's not hard to let trains pass behind some tall structure (such as a grain elevator or large industrial building) onto hidden tracks. When the train is out of sight, you can stop it (or use an automated delay) and then move to the far-away section of the layout, wait a bit, and start up the train.

Alternately, you could model an intervening scene in between the two--a grain elevator or other siding along the line, or that under-modeled but ridiculously easy to model scene, a stretch of long, straight track stretching from horizon to horizon on the open prairie, perhaps with a road or rural farm scene alongside it.

Editing out those "vacant" areas (often called "selective omission" or "selective compression" is pretty much mandatory for model railroaders, as we simply don't have the space to accurately model anything but the most miniscule railroad operations.

As to modular construction--A 2x4 module will probably be easier for you to reach things, but don't be limited by standard module sizes. It can be simpler to build to a single common size but don't let it hamper your designs. A common practice in today's mobile age is "sectional" layouts--layouts designed to come apart but with non-standard sizes, so that layouts can be moved without cutting them apart.

Have you decided on a scale yet? It sounds like the kind of railroading you want to model (long coal drags, big open spaces, grain elevators that make the trains look like toys, relatively modern equipment) would be well-suited to N scale, but it could be done in HO with sufficient space.

Oh yeah--get the kids involved! If you infuse them with a love of local history and hands-on research at a young age there's a good chance they'll grow up with a sense of civic pride as well as invaluable skills for schoolwork. At least, that's what I told my dad when I was doing railroad reading instead of homework...

Sounds like an ambitious but very interesting project!! Please keep us updated--as I'm doing something similar, I'd definitely like to hear about your progress and would be happy to swap suggestions.

[Javern]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DT1967

I'm trying to decide what to include in a layout.

....One little inside joke is for me to put a state trooper at a crossing outside his car timing the trains. A local trooper times how long the intersection is blocked and sends tickets to the railroad if the intersection is blocked for over 10 minutes. ....

I'm originally from a small town in NW Iowa where indeed they had a ordinance that limited trains from blocking traffic for more than 15 min I think it was....I recall reading in the local newspaper where a city cop flagged down a slow moving train and handing the engineer a citation violating this ordinance.

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to decide what to include in a layout.

I'm trying to use personal history and locales.

Two of my sons were born in Salina, KS. I think this is UP or BNSF mainline with some switching. They here mainly to serve the grain elevators and mills. Also this is where massive coal consists come through. I think the rail equipment by the track is BNSF but the trains seem to be mostly UP.

I would represent this by creating a small switching yard off of the main line, some grain elevators, and maybe if my modeling skills improve the house we lived in there.

One little inside joke is for me to put a state trooper at a crossing outside his car timing the trains. A local trooper times how long the intersection is blocked and sends tickets to the railroad if the intersection is blocked for over 10 minutes.

Another area for modeling is Lenexa, KS where I grew up and an area the we maybe moving to this year. This is a BNSF mainline with some industrial switching. There are some neat places to model like where the mainline runs along a creek and a highway runs over it. (K-10) in Johnson Co. I also like where K-7 crosses the Kansas river.

Another area is the Argentine yards in KCK. I used to work real close to there and there are many things to model. I believe both BNSF and GE have locomotive overhaul or service facilities there.

A pipe dream is look at the intermodel facility at the old Richard Gebaurer airfiled.

I think I can have each area represent a time and a place in my life. I think this will give some meaning to why I chose them. Also I can realistically have at least three railroads running on my track. They would be KCS, BNSF, and UP and all the fallen flag freight cars. I saw a UP train over the holidays with a SP locomotive, Denver Rio Grande coal hoppers and some other fallen flags mixed.

Ok if you've read this far...I appreciate it. I'm playing with a layout to relearn or learn some of the skills I'll need. Now for my questions:

1.) Where can I find out who owns the line to confirm my thoughts?

2.) The railroad uses the old station in Salina for an office...any thoughts on where I could find the plans to model it?

3.) There is a 180 mile space between Salina and KC so can I use modeler's license to do this non scale? Or would this be bad form?

4.) I realize this a big scope but is this perhaps too much to model? I'm thinking doing it in modules or sections. Any thoughts on size for them 2'X4' or 4'x4' were my thoughts.

5.) I was thinking of a lower level staging area is there a book or perferably a website that can give me some ideas on this.

6.) Any other things I should consider since this is still in the thinking or dreaming stage?


Thanks,

DT