Benchwork Lumber ?

[Anonymous]

when i started my first 4x8 layout i used straight 2x4s from my local lumber yard and then put 1x3 l girders on the top to set the table on the table is a peice of 1/2" CDX plywood with 1x4 pine bracing i got the idea from a recent issue of modelrailroader

[Don Z]

I think the many different suggestions for building benchwork in this thread helps illustrate that there isn't necessarily 'one' correct method for building benchwork. It appears there are as many different methods to build as there are needs for different styles of benchwork. I'm glad we were all able to discuss this subject without it turning into a giant arguement....

I'd still like to see photos from those that built their benchwork with metal studs.....after all, I'm sure this isn't the last layout I'll ever be building!

Don Z. 

[baron9]

  After three layouts using wood as both supports and table top, I finally decided to make the next layout out of steel studs,which I got fairly cheap after a local home store was closing, The steel studs cut just like wood, using a steel cutting blade in my compound saw, All the cuts were straight and when making curves for the layout I just cut small v-shape cuts on both sides and I could make whatever curves I wanted. I then used 7/16" plywood then 2" blue foam board for the table top. Came out quite nice  and without all the sawdust flying around and not worrying about the layout warping on me again.

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Some years ago, my intrepid younger brother was an early experimenter in plywood benchwork, and constructed a 4 x 6 table from ripped strips - and the best part was that he hand-ripped every one with a garage-sale Stanley cheap-grade handsaw. It was most impressive.

The 4 x 8 table I am currently putting finishing touches on is in four traditional grid sections, but the grids are made from L-girders...a 1x2 nailed and glued to a 1x3. The 1x2s are cheap softwood furring strips, selected for "least crookedness", and the 1x3s are nice old Douglas fir that I salvaged from several acoustic-tile ceilings I tore down in my house. Some people might not like the nails, but they're just clamping the girder until the glue dries. I used 4d finish nails.

I figured the flange would add some rigidity, and it does, although it's fairly redundant with the solid plywood top I put on. The best feature of the flange is that I was able to run screws up into the 1/2" plywood, where they will be readily accessible in the future.

Legs are angles glued up from two 1x3's, which attach to 2x3 corner blocks, and are going to get more 2x3s at the bottom with teenut adjusters. The 1x3 angles are very rigid and come up flush with the table edge, which looks nice and is easy to brace. Some grid joints are braced with 1x2 diagonals or 2x3 corner blocks. Cheap loss-leader whitewood 2x3s are my general-purpose wood for rough shop furniture and things like that.

The table assembly is stable, and the sections are very rigid. The structure is somewhat heavy, but I was able to roll it upright on my own without trouble. Super-light structures have their advantages, and not every table need be walkable, but you have to consider its environment. Mine, like the vast majority of model railroads, doesn't have the luxury of living in a purpose-built railroad room or the basement of a new house built to suit it. It shares space with my workshop, sawhorses, and a menacing traffic of boards, pipes, and toolboxes. I bump into it sometimes, and
I don't want it to be so light it tips over.

[R. T. POTEET]

Mobilman, I think you will find, if I understand your statement, that a mere 1/8" of added wood thickness in your cookie-cutter subroadbed is not going to solve your sound complaints.  In fact, adding another 1/2" is perhaps not going to do much good.  Sound will be much more efficiently absorbed if you employ the technique of dual density materials stacked atop one another.  Sound waves are propagated by refraction along or out of a material.  We know that they can be reflected, too, which accounts for echos.  Certain materials are more suited, or more efficient at such propogation, dependent upon the frequency.  So, a way to solve this efficiency problem is to butt any given material with another density, such as foam or cork, or homasote.  The dual density layers do a marvellous job of quelling the sound waves as they migrate along the two materials in my experience.

Just my

Good response, selector; good response.

I sandwich 3/8 inch ply, homasote, cork, and then track; I have a friend who goes one step further; he takes 1/4 inch ply, Upson board, 1/4 inch ply, homasote, cork, and track. I will admit that his roadbed is maybe a little quieter than mine but I'm not sure that that little quieter is worth the extra bucks it takes to get it!!!

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

As with pretty much every other aspect of this hobby, I think we've shown, yet again, that there are a bunch of right ways to do it!

 

[R. T. POTEET]

    Plywood can be used if you have the tools i.e. table saw.  Decent 3/4 hardwood plywood  in birch or oak @ L's or HD runs just over $40 here in Twin City area.  A 4x8 will yield 13 1x4 (3-1/2 wide) strips, translating to $3 and change per strip.  My layout is delayed until retirement which is delayed until sale of home we moved out of in May.  I plan to sort of L-girder, with the top member dadoed (grooved) 3/4" in from one edge to accept the vertical member, leaving 2" on the inside for attaching risers.  I am considering using 1/2" for the top member, putting the cost at about $2 per top member.  The groove needs to be only about 1/8" deep for the vertical member to align absolutely straight, and to prevent screws through the top from splitting out the edge of the vertical.  Glue will be used as well.  Cross members and cleats will be pine because of the split factor, risers can be either.  Gary

Although it can be done, ripping or crosscutting plywood on a table saw requires two men and a boy and, without a number of 'shop-built' accessories, can be dangerous for a one-man operation; if you have to rip or crosscut plywood build yourself a T-Box and set your plywood atop it and use a circular saw. One by four pine is a heck of a lot cheaper than fingers.

Cutting full sheet 4X8 on a table saw requires 2 people or accessory supports.

Cutting full sheet 4X8 with a circular or 'skil' saw requires 2 clamps, a straight 1x4, and 2 saw horses.

But why bother?  My handy big box lumber yards have a panel saw and will rip or cut plywood to your specifications bypically for free.  

When I purchase 4X8, I typically have it ripped into 2 2X8 or 2 4X4 panels depending upon what my ultimate use is.

Over the past 3 years, I have been able to buy cabinet plywood for $25 a sheet at HD.  It is birch 8 or 9 ply so many that when I count, I get a different number:).  Not always available, may be 2nds but I've never had problems getting it when I needed it.

My 2 cents

Joe

Whatever floats your boat, I guess! I will continue to assemble my T-Box(s) on the floor of my carport, set my plywood on top, measure and clamp down my edge guide, plug in my circular saw and away I go.

[Don Z]

I used a combination of 1x4 poplar and 1/2" birch plywood for the top of the benchwork. As an avid hobbyist woodworker, I decided to upgrade the legs a little bit...they're hard maple. A photo of some of my work:

Don Z.

That's not a layout; that's furniture!! It looks great!!

Marlon,

It's funny you used 'furniture' to describe the benchwork. When I built the section of benchwork in the photo below for our fellow forum member Tom Bryant_MR, his wife mentioned it would make a fine dining table....he wasted no time climbing aboard and cutting the hole for the turntable so his wife couldn't confiscate his new benchwork!

Don Z.

[decoderboy]

I have access to the back of a large wholesale building materials warehouse, so i go in on a saturday when we are closed and i can pick over the lift. my choice for the lumber is finger joint 1x4 pine. it comes from Oregon. it is dried to the perfect moisture content, and is very true due to the finger jointing. i use drywall screws in counter sunk pilot holes with glue. for the top i use 1/2 " good one side fir plywood also glued and screwed. i make "L" shaped legs out of the same pine. makes for very sturdy benchwork. mike

[Medina1128]

I used a combination of 1x4 poplar and 1/2" birch plywood for the top of the benchwork. As an avid hobbyist woodworker, I decided to upgrade the legs a little bit...they're hard maple. A photo of some of my work:

Don Z.

That's not a layout; that's furniture!! It looks great!!

[joe-daddy]

    Plywood can be used if you have the tools i.e. table saw.  Decent 3/4 hardwood plywood  in birch or oak @ L's or HD runs just over $40 here in Twin City area.  A 4x8 will yield 13 1x4 (3-1/2 wide) strips, translating to $3 and change per strip.  My layout is delayed until retirement which is delayed until sale of home we moved out of in May.  I plan to sort of L-girder, with the top member dadoed (grooved) 3/4" in from one edge to accept the vertical member, leaving 2" on the inside for attaching risers.  I am considering using 1/2" for the top member, putting the cost at about $2 per top member.  The groove needs to be only about 1/8" deep for the vertical member to align absolutely straight, and to prevent screws through the top from splitting out the edge of the vertical.  Glue will be used as well.  Cross members and cleats will be pine because of the split factor, risers can be either.  Gary

Although it can be done, ripping or crosscutting plywood on a table saw requires two men and a boy and, without a number of 'shop-built' accessories, can be dangerous for a one-man operation; if you have to rip or crosscut plywood build yourself a T-Box and set your plywood atop it and use a circular saw. One by four pine is a heck of a lot cheaper than fingers.

Cutting full sheet 4X8 on a table saw requires 2 people or accessory supports.

Cutting full sheet 4X8 with a circular or 'skil' saw requires 2 clamps, a straight 1x4, and 2 saw horses.

But why bother?  My handy big box lumber yards have a panel saw and will rip or cut plywood to your specifications bypically for free.  

When I purchase 4X8, I typically have it ripped into 2 2X8 or 2 4X4 panels depending upon what my ultimate use is.

Over the past 3 years, I have been able to buy cabinet plywood for $25 a sheet at HD.  It is birch 8 or 9 ply so many that when I count, I get a different number:).  Not always available, may be 2nds but I've never had problems getting it when I needed it.

My 2 cents

Joe 

 

 

[R. T. POTEET]

    Plywood can be used if you have the tools i.e. table saw.  Decent 3/4 hardwood plywood  in birch or oak @ L's or HD runs just over $40 here in Twin City area.  A 4x8 will yield 13 1x4 (3-1/2 wide) strips, translating to $3 and change per strip.  My layout is delayed until retirement which is delayed until sale of home we moved out of in May.  I plan to sort of L-girder, with the top member dadoed (grooved) 3/4" in from one edge to accept the vertical member, leaving 2" on the inside for attaching risers.  I am considering using 1/2" for the top member, putting the cost at about $2 per top member.  The groove needs to be only about 1/8" deep for the vertical member to align absolutely straight, and to prevent screws through the top from splitting out the edge of the vertical.  Glue will be used as well.  Cross members and cleats will be pine because of the split factor, risers can be either.  Gary

Although it can be done, ripping or crosscutting plywood on a table saw requires two men and a boy and, without a number of 'shop-built' accessories, can be dangerous for a one-man operation; if you have to rip or crosscut plywood build yourself a T-Box and set your plywood atop it and use a circular saw. One by four pine is a heck of a lot cheaper than fingers.

[jjackso8]

Brian -  like Chuck, I am building my new payout using steel girders for many of the same reasons even though I am in the upper midwest. the price and ease of "carpentry" are what really drove my decision. Personally what  I am using to protect myself is aproduct that is in everyone's tool box or at least should be: duct tape. yes the plain old fasioned silver/gray colored tape. It is easy to use and cheap too. Once I have the basic construction doen I just get ou the tape and cover the edges. If there are sharp projections i just take the tin snips and cut it off and tape it. Damage control and prevention at its simplest.

[Anonymous]

Clear pine 1" x 2" with 2" blue foam on top worked for my 50' of 24" to 36" wide "shelf" style layout with legs and crossmembers every 32" and a 1 x 2 rim around the perimeter. Made my legs go directly under the crosspieces so no screws holding weight. My layout is N scale with the mountains made out of blue foam with LOTS of hydrocal rocks and some plaster cloth here and there. I have 60 structures, 60 rolling stock and 11 locomotives. It isn't strong enough to stand on, but it's plenty strong for what I have on it. Worked well.

[reklein]

1/4" luan with a mahogany stain looks really nice as fascia.. Unfortunately I don't have an electronic pic. I used it for a Park Service diorama I did years ago.

[Don Z]

Dave,

Thank you very much! I was worried when I first read your statement....until I read it again, and caught the pun. I figured since the legs would be visible by people visiting the train room, I might as well make them look good.....and I'm still tossing ideas around in my head for what I want to do for a fascia and light valence above the layout.

Thanks again,

Don Z.

[davekelly]

I used a combination of 1x4 poplar and 1/2" birch plywood for the top of the benchwork. As an avid hobbyist woodworker, I decided to upgrade the legs a little bit...they're hard maple. A photo of some of my work:

Don Z.

Don,

You got some gorgeous legs there . . . supporting your benchwork   Seriously, that extra touch does add to the layout, just as a nicely finished valence (sp?).

[JLLentner]

I recently started my retirement HO scale BNSF (modern era modeler) layout.  I am using the classic "L-girder" construction method.  I was going to use dimensional Pine, but both Lowes and Home Depot had nothing but junk lumber; twisted and warped.

A contractor friend suggested using dimensional Poplar, which I am doing.  It is straight and knott free.  A real pleasure to work with.  I am using 3/4" birch plywood for the subroadbed.  Like someone else commented, all screws are driven from the underside of the layout.  In addition to screws, I am using Gorilla glue for some parts: the 2" square legs are actually 1x2s glued together and of course the "Ls" are made from a 1x3 and 1x2 glued and screwed together.

Respectfully,

BNSF Fan

[60YOKID]

I used pine 1X3's and 1X4's that I hand selected from Manard's.  Bench work consists of modules constructed from 1X4's with cross joists 16" on centers, glued and screwed with dry wall screws.  Legs are bolted on "L" girders and made from 1X3 and 1X4 with levelers on each leg.  Top is 3/8 plywood screwed and glued.  All covered with 2" closed cell foam board.  I can walk on it anywhere at 235 #.

I predrilled the joists and the ends for wiring.  Have 350' of HO code 100 in 14 signal blocks, mounted on Midwest cork roadbed.  Used latex caulk to fasten cork and track.  Not ballasted yet, but trains operate quietly.  Half my engines have sound and I need to turn down volume on most of them.  I can hear wheel noise from the ones without sound when they are close to me, but I need to listen closely when sound units are going at the same time.  I like to hear the metal wheels on the joints!

Of course my hearing is not the best anymore!!  (They say it's about the 2nd thing to go when you get older!!)

I use Digitrax and and feeders are #18 cables to each block.  Now working on scenery.  Made backdrop from 1X2's covered with 1/8" Masonite.

All this worked out so well that if I started on a new layout tomorrow, I think I would do it the same way again. 

My main tip is "Glue adds enormous strength to wood construction" 

-Bill 

[mobilman44]

Your comments are appreciated.  

The carrying of unwanted sound is really not that huge and very tolerable.  However, on the next one, I will take more precautions.  In addition to your thoughts on the subject, what I really should have centered on is the fact that I used track nails, which reach into the plywood and carry the sound.  Given I already have two different layers (1/8 cork over 1/2 ply), I suspect the nails are more the culprit. 

The layout is 12x15, three levels, located in a former bedroom (kids are longgggggg gone!) and was initiated 10 years ago.  One thing I have done that I highly recommend to anyone building a layout is to keep a journal/listing of the "goods & bads, what worked and did not, what they would do again, and what they would change".  My list is about 3 pages long, and thankfully the good far outweighs the not so good.

Thanks again,

Mobilman44 

[joe-daddy]

I use 3/4 birch plywood (8 or 9 ply) frequently on sale at $25 per sheet from HD and cover it with 1/2 soundboard $9 at HD. Soundboard is quiet and after I paint it with 3 coats of latex paint it looks great and had excellent nail holding properties.  I use 4 OZ of tightbond per sheet to laminate the plywood and soundboard.

Benchwork itself is 100% modular 1X4 grid with 2X2 legs with 5/16 carriagebolts set in T nuts for adjustment.  Masonite backdrops and facia boards.

 

My 2 cents, never worth a nickle more. . . 

 

Joe

 

 

[selector]

Mobilman, I think you will find, if I understand your statement, that a mere 1/8" of added wood thickness in your cookie-cutter subroadbed is not going to solve your sound complaints.  In fact, adding another 1/2" is perhaps not going to do much good.  Sound will be much more efficiently absorbed if you employ the technique of dual density materials stacked atop one another.  Sound waves are propagated by refraction along or out of a material.  We know that they can be reflected, too, which accounts for echos.  Certain materials are more suited, or more efficient at such propogation, dependent upon the frequency.  So, a way to solve this efficiency problem is to butt any given material with another density, such as foam or cork, or homasote.  The dual density layers do a marvellous job of quelling the sound waves as they migrate along the two materials in my experience.

Just my .

[Blue Flamer]

Mine was simple and cheap..

stud grade 2x4's for frame and legs 2 bucks and change, x 8

5/8 particle board...(the heavy duty floooring/siding kind) @ 12.98 per sheet x2

1/4 inch fiberboard without holes (like the perforated shop board) 2 @ 6.99

Box of 3/4 drywall screws.....4.98

grass green paint....1/2 gal...6.99

Listening to the old lady complain about me spending money...priceless!!

 

 

TwinDaddy.

A nice looking Layout and a warm looking basement. 

A note of caution for you. I cannot tell how close the gas water heater  and gas furnace are to that plastic vapour barrier over your insulation, but unless the water heater is a sealed combustion chamber type, it MAY be a possible fire hazard. Check on the rating plates of both units to see what the clearance to combustibles is. The problem is, that if you get a downdraft or a blocked chimney, the flame COULD roll out around the bottom of the water heater and possibly ignite the plastic. The furnace is not so critical as the burners are at the front but check for clearances to the rear anyway.

How do I know.  41 Years experience as a Serviceman and Service Supervisor with a large Gas Company. I have seen it happen.

Blue Flamer. 

[mobilman44]

Hi,

  Building a layout is a labor of love, and I confess that I find as much (more?) fun in the building process than when its finished - although I argue that a layout is never really finished.

I'm 63, and have built several layouts, the first being when I was 12 or so.  The HO layout I built in the mid-70s had benchwork that would probably hold up a car or two, as the legs were all 2x6s and 3/4 inch ply was the main surface. 

My latest layout, now with about 50% scenery complete, uses 2x2 legs 2 ft apart (42 in total), with 1x2 bracing.  This lumber is your basic pine from Home Depot/Lowes, with the only criteria is that it was straight and relatively knot free.  The top - using the "cookie cutter" process, is 1/2 inch plywood.  I used 1/4 for the support for trackage above/below the basic level of the layout.  The good news here is that it is easy to do grades and separations, but the bad news is that the 1/2 inch ply carries sound too well.  A future layout will use 5/8 ply.  In summary, the cheapest lumber - if you are selective - will work just great!  

I covered the entire layout with 1/8 inch sheet cork (Home Depot/Lowes), which was glued down and makes a nice base for industry/yard tracks.  The mainline has the usual cork roadbed which gives the main a distinct look (vs. yard/industry trackage).

Two more comments while I am rattling on........ 

-  Cordless drills (small 8 or 12 V work great) & sheetrock screws are a Godsend for the layout builder!!!  I highly recommend two drills, one with a 1/8 inch bit for pre drilling, and the other with a screw bit.  I would not consider using nails, as they are too permanent and the hammering jars the layout.

-  Do yourself a real favor, make the layout strong enough so you can walk on it. 

Most of all, ENJOY !!!!!

Mobilman44    

[ChrisNH]

I use soft pine. For my n-scale stuff that is mostly 1x2 and 1x3 (I glue 2 1x2s for 2x2 legs). It takes self-tapping drywall screws well and is inexpensive. The down side is knots in the wood that can make it hard to screw and can weaken the benchwork if not dealt with properly. 

I am working on refurbishing a table saw. Once that is done I will rip the pieces out of a 2x6 or 2x8 since it takes forever to find good boards with minimal warping or bowing at my local discount lumber store.

I built the supports for my mini using L-girder with 1/2" birch plywood and for my larger layout using L-girder and 3/4" pine plywood.  I don't like the 1/2", its harder to work with when joining sections. With the 3/4" I can use a 1.25" drywall screw for joints. WIth the 1/2" I have to pre-tap and use 3/4" wood screws.

I will also not EVER again put all my joists on 12" centers as I did with my mini.. just a little too small to fit my power screw-driver in. I will  go to 16" min centers on the larger ones.

Chris 

 

[ShadowNix]

My layout uses classic Westcott L-girder design (all screws up from the bottom) and cookie-cut plywood subgrade (also screwed up from the underside.)

My wood of choice is steel.  Specifically, steel studs, in two metal gauges and two sizes.  My L-girders (C-girders?) and legs are heavyweight 1.25 by 3.75 inch, I have used lighter 1.25 by 3.75 for joists where strength is required and light 1.25 by 2.25 where it isn't.  Risers are shaped from whichever lightweight size is appropriate.

Tools required are simple and inexpensive: small square, tin snips, vice grips, power drill-screwdriver and lots of clamps.  Most fastening of stud to stud and plywood to stud has been done with 7/16 framing screws.  A few joints, meant to be separated for various reasons, have been secured with bolts and nuts.

My choice has been driven by two facts:

1. Here in the dessicated desert, heat and lack of humidity does strange things to wood - even wood which was perfectly straight when brought into the oven layout room.  I have yet to have a steel stud warp, twist or assume strange compound curves.
2. My own lack of skill as a carpenter.  I'm slightly better as a tin bender, and the material is far more forgiving.

Just my .  Feel free to disagree.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Chuck,

Do you grind/file off the edges?  Coat them with rubber/tape?  Sounds like a great idea...'cept the edges would be sharp and prone to cut (clumsy) me....

Brian

[jbloch]

Several months ago I posted a thread, something to the effect "Pine vs. birch or fir for benchwork."  The majority consensus was that though birch or fir are more sturdy than pine, there's probably no advantage in expansion/contraction issues, they're a bit heavier than pine, and, in the end the cost increase isn't justified. I plan (who knows when I'll start?) to use dimensional lumber for the L-girder frame, and plywood (prob. 1/2 inch given numerous other discussions on this forum) for the base.

Jim

[twcenterprises]

I used 2x4 stud grade lumber for my (current) 4x8, using the open grid method (16" centers for the crossmembers).  I used a sheet of 1/2" B-C plywood.  Why did I use such heavy lumber for the framing?  Because it was free.  If I had to buy the lumber, I probably would have either (A) used 1x4's, or (B) bought 1x8's, and ripped them in half on my table saw, depending on whidh method came out cheaper (and which lumber looked better).

Brad 

[selector]

I, too, used ripped 1X4 to fashion L-girder construction with joists.  I chose every piece of clear spruce that I purchased, and then stacked it in my basement for one week to equalize.  Fortunately, nothing changed shape noticeably, but I did have to muscle the odd part of an L-girder together a bit to keep the two pieces lined up.

Construction of a bench, or a shelf, can often be much lighter than we estimate, particularly if we will never get up on it to do some work.  This applies to the supporting legs, too.  Once you have to kneel on it and do any cyclical hand movements, you'll need sturdy stock and sway braces...or it'll all go "keeerack!"

Yes, please...pre-drill.  Always.  That is an excellent tip.