Catenary in hidden places ?

[John Busby]

Hi ndbprr

If catenary can be made to work on 14,5/8" radius curves (Std UK R1) by adjusting the span lengths and setting the masts out side the curve and using some double track gantry's so they don't get wiped out and at some very strange spacings it can be made to work on any curve.

I too have lost pantographs during the PITA process of getting curves to work properly I never said it was going to be easy to get it to work.

I sold the catenary and the two loco's I had years ago and wish I had not in spite of the messing around needed to get it to work right on the tight curves I had then, and still have to use when building indoor model railways due to space constraints.

regards John

[ndbprr]

No offense but you have obviously never built catenary for a model railroad. You are correct that the prototype does in fact hang the contact wire so the shoe does not wear on the same spot.  In fact it was the firemans job on the PRR to get out at every station stop and examine the shoe for burn through.  The situation on a model railroad however is far different.  The radius of the curves can cause the pantograph (particululary if it is near the end of the car body) to skew to the outside as does the end of a passenger car.  Couple this with different engines, pantograph location and engine length and this can be a nightmare.  If you hang catenary and use a GG1 as your guide your P5a and E44 electrics will have the pantograph not be in contact with the wire at various locations.  Trust me on this as I have ripped the pantograph off a P5a because of this problem.  The tighter the curves the greater the problem.  I will speculate as I said from experience that 48" minimum radius in HO would reduce this effect considerably. 

[John Busby]

There is one major consideration with Cat. and that is the radius of the curves and where the Pantograph is on the carbody.  keeping it centered is critical and the broader the curve the easier it is to do.

The pantograph is fixed to the train and impossible to keep centered as a properly set up wire will move from side to side on the pantograph as the train moves down the track.

On the real trains this is to stop notches being worn in the carbon brush on the top of the pantograph.

The thing to do is to take care in setting up so the wire does the same as the real one without coming off the pantograph including on curves.

Having catenary to run the trains should only add 50% to your wiring you can use one of your track wires as  common return without shorting, but be warned you can set up a head on between that EMU and diesel powered freighter if you are not careful

regards John

[ndbprr]

Actually with the upside down rails centering is'nt the problem it is with wire.  The reasoning is if you have a place where the pantograph does swing to one side just add a second rail in that area (or more as needed).  Just file the ends up a little so it will slide onto easily.

[KING_MEMPHIS]

Hi Guys

Sorry about the delay - I've been out of town.

The Viessmann tunnel system seems pretty cool, Shaun - but there'll be the problem of centering the overhead - especially in the curves as ndbprr mentioned above.

So - if I chose the overhead as a rail solution - at least the centering would be almost right.  I hope to get time to do a test-layout during the weekend.  I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thanx for your help - so far.

 

[whywaites]

There is one major consideration with Cat. and that is the radius of the curves and where the Pantograph is on the carbody.  keeping it centered is critical and the broader the curve the easier it is to do.

Viessmann also produce a comprehensive range of tools gauges and jigs to set your catenary up, their manuals and web site is also very informative.

http://www.viessmann-modell.com/en/produkte/n.php?sprache_nr=2&gr_nr=4

 Shaun

[whywaites]

Have you looked at the tunnel system from Viessmann? it's pretty good and I used it on my Swiss layouts in the past, the wire from the catenary just hooks in for a smooth transition. I have listed the part numbers you will need if you do a web search you will pull up more info, Noch also produce an identical system

Viessmann  -  VN4395 

Viessmann  -  VN68065

Shaun

[ndbprr]

There is one major consideration with Cat. and that is the radius of the curves and where the Pantograph is on the carbody.  keeping it centered is critical and the broader the curve the easier it is to do.

[KING_MEMPHIS]

Thanks for all your input.

My intension was to make a working catenary - though it doubles the wiring.

I'm a little attracted to the idea of soldering rails to the tunnelroof.     I use Märklin standard tracks, so out of one track I will get 2 rails in the roof that follows the track below       Why haven't I thought of that before

My mountains are intended to be hollow, so I'll have to make placeholders for the rails. Plywood could be a possibility for making those portals - just a U upside down.

I do see the problem with the very small contactpoint of the pantos.    The wheels also have very little contact with the tracks.  Some locos only picks up from one wheel on each rail.  Granted, that do create problems now and then.

The NCat-links are very interesting; but I'm not too keen on using wire.  Well, mostly because it will take too much time to fiddle it in place.  I think, I prefer something more stiff as the rails.  

Hmm, I'll build a test track as Mark suggests and see how it works out.

If it fails, I will probably follow the solution from BigRusty and tie the pantos down a little, set up the poles and then run wireless. 

Thanks for the welcome, Mark.

 

[marknewton]

Okay , Mark - but why would you advise against it ?

I personally wouldn't attempt to run Z gauge models off the overhead, because I think that such a small point of electrical contact as a Z gauge panto on Marklin catenary is at the very limits of what can be made to work reliably. By all means I'd hang the wire where it's visible, but I think I'd make it cosmetic, and use conventional 2-rail wiring throughout.

I also wouldn't hang Marklin catenary where it would be hidden, partly on the grounds of cost, but mainly due to the problems of access for maintenance and cleaning. The suggestions to use rigid brass sections or similar material are good alternatives, IMO. I considered something similar on my last layout. I eventually went for the ramps, mainly because I'm lazy, and it was a quick and dirty answer to the problem!

But having written all this, the post from 'tgindy' outlining NCat resources and specs is very interesting, and makes me think that perhaps Z gauge catenary operation could be made to work. I'll admit my opinions on small scale overhead are coloured by a rather unhappy experience helping a friend wire his layout with N scale Sommerfeldt catenary components. Regardless of what we did, we never succeeded in getting it to look right, or to work properly.

You could always build a small section of your layout as a test track, and see how easy or difficult it is to set up and operate?

Whatever you choose to do, welcome to the small but select band of "juice" modellers that congregate here.

All the best,

Mark.

[tgindy]

The suggestion would be to convert to single wire live overhead in your hidden areas.

While my N Scale interurban, Conemaugh Road & Traction, is still in the room preparation phase, I will be using NCat specifications.  NCat provides the simplicity, strength, and consistancy for live overhead regardless of whether or not the overhead is visibly seen, hidden inside a carbarn, or under a mountain.

[1]  NCat Live Catanery => http://www.teamsavage.com/ncat/ncat.html 

[2]  By looking at some of the NCat Album Screenshots, you will get some ideas of how to convert your out-in-the-open catanery, by adapting the NCat single wire specs to single wire for hidden trackage...

http://www.teamsavage.com/ncat/album/index.html 

[3]  See Alex Postpischil's detailed 8-page PDF, "Hanging Trolley Wire and Catenary in N Scale," at East Penn Traction...

http://www.eastpenn.org/mod_tips.html 

[4]  N Scale Traction at Yahoo Groups has many PDFs plus small scale traction help...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nscaletraction 

There are two past issue PDFs of NCat News:  One each at NCat & N Scale Traction.

Catanery in the smaller scales is a tad more fragile than O Scale and HO Scale. Z Scale is close enough to N Scale to adapt proven modeling techniques from N Scale experience.  The smaller the traction scale = greater the challenge.

P.S.:  This whole thread has some good traction model railroading insight for any scale. 

[BigRusty]

On my last layout modeling the NH, PRR, and Reading electrified operations I ran with the pans up, but no wire.

I tied a thin black thread from the base of the pan to the shoe to limit the height to what it would be if running under wire. So as to minimize any problems in tunnels I installed inverted Code 100 Brass rail glued to a plywood tunnel roof with plio bond contact cement. This was tapered down at both ends. The pans then contacted the rail and were lowered down a little and had a smooth ride through the tunnel.

Having the pans up while running gives a much better appearance of being operated under wire, than with them locked down.

This is the same method I will be using in the New Haven layout that I have in planning. I will install the support towers, but not the trolley wire at first to see if the wire is really necessary to convey the concept of catenary operation.

An important note re catenary operation. The prototype zig zags the wire between the rails so that the wire is running back and forth on the pickup shoe. That is necessary to avoid the wire cutting the shoe in half eventually. This is just as important for a model catenary operation, especially if it is powered.

[tomikawaTT]

If you look at prototype photos, you have to strain your eyes to see even heavy catenary at anything beyond 100 meters - which is only about 18" in Z scale.  If you were to go to something closer to the prototype than Marklin catenary, its current-carrying capacity for any distance would be ???  Granted, you could feed the overhead at every supporting point - at which point the electricals would begin to resemble a full-scale spiderweb.

My own choice, after careful consideration, is to model the catenary supports, the heavy feeder cables, the line tensioning devices - but NOT the wire.  If your trackwork gets more complicated than widely-spaced individual turnouts on single track having a sky full of overhead is an open invitation to disaster.

If you do insist on using powered catenary, you could follow the lead of one club I once visited.  To keep the pans of some PRR power happy, lengths of rail were soldered to screws in the plywood that formed the tunnel roof.  There actually is a prototype for this - some of Tokyo's subways run a third rail along the roof, contacted by standard-design pantographs.

Chuck [modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with motors, and wireless catenary - in z-times-three (1:80, aka HOj) scale]

[ndbprr]

is it for show or will it be used?  You don't want to have to resolder something in a hidden area unless it is totaly accesible like in another room where you have easy access plus it is a waste of time and resources.  There are two ways I have used.  The old way was to take the wire into the hidden area and then allow it to rise until not in contact with the pantograph.  This assumes that your pantograph will not have a clearance problem somewhere else.  Before it come out just reverse the procedure so the pantograph can ride down the wire to the correct height. In actuality I used a piece of rail for the sloping sections.  That worked so well that on my hidden staging yards that are really return loops I intend to use brass rail soldered to a rail spanning all tracks and supported about every other track.  My Catenary will be for show and I won;t need electrical contact.  If I were going to make it live I would use nickel silver rail.  Rugged and should outlive either of us. the wire will pick back up just before it becomes visible again.  You can cut costs considerably by making your own poles and using phos bronze wire.  Check out the series beginning on doing your own catenary Pennsy style in the October Keystone Modeler.  This is a free publication offered by the PRRT&HS on their web site and is a phenomenal publication.  Even if you don;t model the PRR you will learn some techniques from master modelers.  You can download it and save it for future reference along with all available back issues.  Phos bronze wire can be had at a  wire supply company.  I purchased mine over twenty years ago.  I asked for 500' of wire and the guy said they had a $20.00 minimum order.  Then I asked how they usually sold it and he said by the pound.  Then I asked how much it was a pound and he said something like $2.00.  then I asked how many feet were in a pound and he said a lot more than 500' so I got ten pounds of it.  Believe me when I say it is a lifetime supply!

[KING_MEMPHIS]

Well, Bob - I have been thinking of using some kind of brass profile.

But I just thought that especially brass would need at lot of cleaning ( which I'd intend to avoid ).  Lazy me !

[KING_MEMPHIS]

Okay , Mark - but why would you advise against it ?

 

 

[bogp40]

Hi Friends

I'm planning on putting up some catenary on my layout.

The catenary fra Märklin is pretty pricey, so I was wondering if any of you use something else for catenary in tunnels, staging or anywhere it is hidden. 

I plan on using the catenary to run the trains by actively.  

BTW I'm modelling in Z scale - so please don't make it too complicated

On our previous club layout the hidden areas for traction we had substited brass stock and/or rod for the catenary. You will need to select stock that is thin enough to transition from wire to flat stock. I didn't personally work on that part of the project, but after many years of cleaning and repairing the catenary I did find that the thin brass had the square bottom edge rounded off as to not have any problems allowing the shoe to track. Panagraphs tend to be very reliable, the troubles were usually associated with trolley pole/ pick ups.

[marknewton]

I would advise against using catenary anywhere that is hidden. I would also strongly advise against using it to power Z scale models. All I've ever done is built entry/exit ramps where track enters hidden staging or tunnels.

Mark.

[KING_MEMPHIS]

Hi Friends

I'm planning on putting up some catenary on my layout.

The catenary fra Märklin is pretty pricey, so I was wondering if any of you use something else for catenary in tunnels, staging or anywhere it is hidden. 

I plan on using the catenary to run the trains by actively.  

BTW I'm modelling in Z scale - so please don't make it too complicated