Just registered, and ned some suggestions. I'm proposing a layout on a 36"x80" door, with a layer of 1" blue foam affixed to it. The layout will be in a shed in the back yard, is not climate controlled, only has a very small A/C unit which is not up to the task in the heat. My location is in Franklin County, NC, with a lot of humidity and, lately, a lot of high temps. I first used a spray adhesive which did not hold the foam in place for more than a few days. After taking it out of the way, I painted the door's surfaces (per a suggestion from Dave V.) to minimize the effects of the humidity. After drying for over a week, I spread Liquid Nails for Projects and applied the foam and weighted it down to let it dry. This morning, after a week of curing, I was able to just lift the foam off the door! Can anyone offer a method of securing the foam?
Bill
How long did you let the Liquid Nails dry?
Remember, since the Styrofoam is very dense, and you've sealed the door, it takes a very, very long time for the moisture in the glue to dissipate. In fact, I bet if I ripped apart my layout right now, the glue in the center might still be wet after a year!
You can attach it with Liquid Nails and then work for awhile on the foam while it dries. Just don't bump or move it.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Hi Bill,
Probably what has happened is the paint on the door surface is keeping the liquid nails from making a good adhesive bond.Your best bet is to sand the paint down on the side that you want to adhere the foam to,then try it again.
OR
sand the paint off the door as suggested on the side you want to adhere the foam to.Go to a hoby shop and get two hour liquid epoxy, mix it 50-50, and mix enough to cover the door, and then spread it lightly on the door surface,[squeegee it on with a putty knife]( it would help to lightly sand the side of the foam you wish to glue to the door also, then put your foam down,weight it down then let it cure good for about a day.
One of these tow methods should work.
Ed
K4,
Now, I didn't have to sand anything for my foam to seal. I would suggest patience, patience, patience.
Bill,
Since here in North Carolina we're having a drout and the humidity is lower, you may want to trot the layout out to your driveway and let it sit in the sun for a few hours. That might help dry the glue a bit faster.
I live in Goldsboro NC, and I have my setup in a building that is not climate controlled either. I put my foam on top of plywood with a HOT GLUE GUN, and have had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever! No problems with my foam, roadbed or tracklaying using the hot glue gun. I see that a lot of people are using white, yellow glue, contact glues and a lot of other ways to "glue" down items, but hardly see anyone using hot glue, but it works! Hope this helps.
railroadinmedic@yahoo.com Carl
SF Bill wrote: Bill, Check and see if the plastic film covering is still on the foam. If it is, that's the culprit.Bob
Bill, Check and see if the plastic film covering is still on the foam. If it is, that's the culprit.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Dave Vollmer wrote: How long did you let the Liquid Nails dry?Remember, since the Styrofoam is very dense, and you've sealed the door, it takes a very, very long time for the moisture in the glue to dissipate. In fact, I bet if I ripped apart my layout right now, the glue in the center might still be wet after a year!You can attach it with Liquid Nails and then work for awhile on the foam while it dries. Just don't bump or move it.
To get the strongest bond within a reasonable amount of time, I have found that ceramic tile adhesive works best for me. As Dave mentions, the sealed door doesn't allow the glue to dry for some time. I have seen laminated foam glued with liquid nail still showing un cured/ dried glue after almost a month when the pieces were pulled apart.
Tile adhesive applied with a notched trowel allows a good initial tack and the grooving creates a suction and allows trapped air for the mastic to dry. Large laminated sections will dry in about 24 hours. I can't stress enough about the use of this product for bonding foam to foam, foam to wood, plaster to wood or foam and plaster to plaster. Edges do still need to be weighted to avoid any lifting.
Some years ago, my son had used some adhesive laying around for a school project when he couldn't find my Liquid nails. I was amazed at the results for laminating the foam to plywood and the added foam layers for the mountain he made. Been using this adhesive ever since.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
SF Bill wrote: Just registered, and ned some suggestions. I'm proposing a layout on a 36"x80" door, with a layer of 1" blue foam affixed to it. The layout will be in a shed in the back yard, is not climate controlled, only has a very small A/C unit which is not up to the task in the heat. My location is in Franklin County, NC, with a lot of humidity and, lately, a lot of high temps. I first used a spray adhesive which did not hold the foam in place for more than a few days. After taking it out of the way, I painted the door's surfaces (per a suggestion from Dave V.) to minimize the effects of the humidity. After drying for over a week, I spread Liquid Nails for Projects and applied the foam and weighted it down to let it dry. This morning, after a week of curing, I was able to just lift the foam off the door! Can anyone offer a method of securing the foam? Bill
I'm sorry you are having so much trouble working with foam, but I assure you your results are pretty much equal to mine. A couple of suggestions:
1 - Consider something more suitable as a roadbed to cover your door with. I use a product available here at both HD & Lowes called Sound board. It is 1/2" thick, deadens sound, holds track nails exceptionaly well and is easy to glue to wood using yellow glue, I use 4oz per 4 X 8 sheet. Oh, the soundboard is about the same price as the foam.
2 - When I really have to glue and secure foam, I gave up on liquid nails for foam long ago for reasons well explained in this thread and I use clear silicone based caulk which does glue quickly and holds well for most everything foam related. That caulk also takes paint well and is an easy cleanup.
In regard to soundboard, it is very much like the fabled Homasote which I would use if it is available in your area in lieu of the soundboard. One other thought on the Liquid Nails for foam, I've had best success with it when I put it on with a putty knife and kept the amount very minimal. WHen I just put a bead on and pressed a couple of pieces together, the results were, well it turns out, exactly like what you described, I's just too impatient to wait weeks for the glue to dry.
Just my 2 cents never worth more,
Joe
Something's rotten in Denmark; I've appled foam to doors, plywood, whatever, with Liquid Nails, and never had a problem.
Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.
Mailman wrote: Something's rotten in Denmark; I've appled foam to doors, plywood, whatever, with Liquid Nails, and never had a problem. Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.
Well, I don't live in Denmark and drying in less than an hour sounds, well unbelievable. What do you know that we don't?
To all that answered my query-many thanks. I'll keep trying until I find one of those suggestions that works, for me. May go to Lowes today and talk to someone in that dept about all of the choices. I read an article, on line, by the Boulder Model RR Club re: Foam Layout Clinic. It was suggested to use only a water-based adhesive, whatever that is. When I find a winner, I'll comment here on the Forum.
Again, many thanks. Bill
joe-daddy wrote: Mailman wrote: Something's rotten in Denmark; I've appled foam to doors, plywood, whatever, with Liquid Nails, and never had a problem. Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc. Well, I don't live in Denmark and drying in less than an hour sounds, well unbelievable. What do you know that we don't?Joe
Don't know. This has been on unfinished doors that the local lumber yard had marked as damaged and were going to toss.
Maybe unfinished is the key. Bare plywood too. And I've just grabbed whatever Liquid Nails tube was handy at the hardware store; sometimes its one variety (i.e., for projects), sometimes its another.
I've never painted a door, etc. before applying the foam. Plenty of humidity, etc. here in MN too, but never been a problem in the trainroom aka basement. Have a dehumidifier there though.
Wouldn't think humidity would be a problem in Colorado though. My years in the west, too dry was always the problem :)
Mailman wrote: joe-daddy wrote: Mailman wrote: Snip Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.SNIP What do you know that we don't?Joe Don't know. snip And I've just grabbed whatever Liquid Nails tube was handy at the hardware store; sometimes its one variety (i.e., for projects), sometimes its another.Snip
joe-daddy wrote: Mailman wrote: Snip Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.SNIP What do you know that we don't?Joe
Mailman wrote: Snip Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.
Snip
SNIP
What do you know that we don't?
Don't know.
snip
And I've just grabbed whatever Liquid Nails tube was handy at the hardware store; sometimes its one variety (i.e., for projects), sometimes its another.
One thing I can think of is that I always use the 'for foam only' liquid nails which is not as agressive (nor as good IMHO) as regular Liquid Nails.
joe-daddy wrote: Mailman wrote: joe-daddy wrote: Mailman wrote: Snip Drys in less than an hour and I can't budge the foam without a prybar/large screwdriver, etc.SNIP What do you know that we don't?Joe Don't know. snip And I've just grabbed whatever Liquid Nails tube was handy at the hardware store; sometimes its one variety (i.e., for projects), sometimes its another.Snip One thing I can think of is that I always use the 'for foam only' liquid nails which is not as agressive (nor as good IMHO) as regular Liquid Nails. Joe
Bet you're right. Fwiw, I haven't seen the other LN varieties cause any problems (dissolve it, etc.) with the foam.
The hot glue gun tip above is a good way to go too.
bogp40 wrote:To get the strongest bond within a reasonable amount of time, I have found that ceramic tile adhesive works best for me. As Dave mentions, the sealed door doesn't allow the glue to dry for some time. I have seen laminated foam glued with liquid nail still showing un cured/ dried glue after almost a month when the pieces were pulled apart. Tile adhesive applied with a notched trowel allows a good initial tack and the grooving creates a suction and allows trapped air for the mastic to dry. Large laminated sections will dry in about 24 hours. I can't stress enough about the use of this product for bonding foam to foam, foam to wood, plaster to wood or foam and plaster to plaster. Edges do still need to be weighted to avoid any lifting.Some years ago, my son had used some adhesive laying around for a school project when he couldn't find my Liquid nails. I was amazed at the results for laminating the foam to plywood and the added foam layers for the mountain he made. Been using this adhesive ever since.
Is there a specific type of tile adhesive that is required? I'm thinking in terms of possible reactions with the foam. Also, what size and shape of notch worked for you?
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
Zandoz wrote: bogp40 wrote:To get the strongest bond within a reasonable amount of time, I have found that ceramic tile adhesive works best for me. As Dave mentions, the sealed door doesn't allow the glue to dry for some time. I have seen laminated foam glued with liquid nail still showing un cured/ dried glue after almost a month when the pieces were pulled apart. Tile adhesive applied with a notched trowel allows a good initial tack and the grooving creates a suction and allows trapped air for the mastic to dry. Large laminated sections will dry in about 24 hours. I can't stress enough about the use of this product for bonding foam to foam, foam to wood, plaster to wood or foam and plaster to plaster. Edges do still need to be weighted to avoid any lifting.Some years ago, my son had used some adhesive laying around for a school project when he couldn't find my Liquid nails. I was amazed at the results for laminating the foam to plywood and the added foam layers for the mountain he made. Been using this adhesive ever since.Is there a specific type of tile adhesive that is required? I'm thinking in terms of possible reactions with the foam. Also, what size and shape of notch worked for you?
Any of the readily available ceramic tile adhesives are water soluable until dry. I have used almost ever brand for tile setting and have found very little difference in formulation. It is best to buy it in a smaller quantity Qt, gal. But the standard container is about 3 gal. An 1/8 to 3/16" V notched trowel seems to work best. To glue plaster castings and any other small pieces, I cut cedar shingle for use as a spatula to apply the mastic. On very large areas, I find that using a shingle to spoon out the adhesive to plop on the surface will save the trowel from being covered and messy instead. Then work the mastic and trowel evenly.
The only drawback to the adhesive is when using a hot wire to cut through the laminated stacked foam it can be slow or difficult to shape. A serrated knife, drywall saw or even a long sawzall blade will cut w/o trouble.
Thanks....just the info I was looking for.
One other question comes to mind....how is the tile adhesive for fumes? I'm hoping to use it in the house.
Hot glue. Gun $3.00 at Wally World and 100 sticks of glue at $1.00 store. Can't beat it for cost or speed. Can be working on it minutes after the glue sets. I only used a couple of spot tacks at on end and lifted the other up and repeat process until I reached the end. My sheets were 2 by 8's.
Since you're using a door if you leave off some of the center you already have a lower surface which you could use 1" or more fore some interesting elevation changes. I actually cut the door and added a lake/stream into and under the door on a old N scale layout.
Just some thoughts.
Zandoz wrote: Thanks....just the info I was looking for. One other question comes to mind....how is the tile adhesive for fumes? I'm hoping to use it in the house.
No fumes at all, accually it has almost no odor.
bogp40 wrote: Zandoz wrote: Thanks....just the info I was looking for. One other question comes to mind....how is the tile adhesive for fumes? I'm hoping to use it in the house.No fumes at all, accually it has almost no odor.
Yea, you know, just like methane. . .
joe-daddy wrote: bogp40 wrote: Zandoz wrote: Thanks....just the info I was looking for. One other question comes to mind....how is the tile adhesive for fumes? I'm hoping to use it in the house.No fumes at all, accually it has almost no odor.Yea, you know, just like methane. . .
So now I know what's wrong with me, All those years of doing tile work......
Actually it's an acrylic mastic that's quite safe.....